Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Fighting Errors in the Modern World => Topic started by: Croix de Fer on June 26, 2018, 10:23:44 AM
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People like this minister are blind guides, they are just trying to make order of their own disordered morals.
If you live in the City of Man (all non-Catholics, and all baptized Catholics who do not live the faith, like 99% of the worlds population today), do not marry, just live with the women till you get tired of each other or you find someone better looking or whatever your need is (a good cook, has money.....). Anyone of the world, specially in the USA, who marries, is a fool.
If you live in the City of God - you do not need to listen to video's by blind guides like this. PERIOD.
Take it from someone who lived in the City of Man for 40 years and did exactly as I advised when I lived there. Once God enlightened me, I left that city and lived the Catholic life and within a few years a catholic wife showed up one day at my chapel. She was in her early 20's and I was in my late 40's. God provides, just focus on Him and let Him sort it out for you.
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People like this minister are blind guides, they are just trying to make order of their own disordered morals.
If you live in the City of Man (all non-Catholics, and all baptized Catholics who do not live the faith, like 99% of the worlds population today), do not marry, just live with the women till you get tired of each other or you find someone better looking or whatever your need is (a good cook, has money.....). Anyone of the world, specially in the USA, who marries, is a fool.
If you live in the City of God - you do not need to listen to video's by blind guides like this. PERIOD.
Take it from someone who lived in the City of Man for 40 years and did exactly as I advised when I lived there. Once God enlightened me, I left that city and lived the Catholic life and within a few years a catholic wife showed up one day at my chapel. She was in her early 20's and I was in my late 40's. God provides, just focus on Him and let Him sort it out for you.
Nothing you said here counters or addresses what the man in the video discussed.
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I have in fact known women (even a couple of Traditional Catholics) to exploit domestic violence regulations and use the fact that the husband occasionally spanked unruly children as a weapon in divorce proceedings ... even when they spanked the children more than their husbands did.
And I have known of children who threaten to call the police on their parents when faced with prospective (just) corporal punishment. This deters the parent who doesn't want to end up in jail or under the thumb of CPS.
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I have in fact known women (even a couple of Traditional Catholics) to exploit domestic violence regulations and use the fact that the husband occasionally spanked unruly children as a weapon in divorce proceedings ... even when they spanked the children more than their husbands did.
Another reason for a prenup and to avoid the court system.
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I have in fact known women (even a couple of Traditional Catholics) to exploit domestic violence regulations and use the fact that the husband occasionally spanked unruly children as a weapon in divorce proceedings ... even when they spanked the children more than their husbands did.
And I have known of children who threaten to call the police on their parents when faced with prospective (just) corporal punishment. This deters the parent who doesn't want to end up in jail or under the thumb of CPS.
See, unless someone is accusing Ladislaus of bald face lying here, this is serious. It's something we need to address, consider, and discuss as Traditional Catholics.
As always, if any has a problem with a particular post, please make use of the Report to Moderator link (if someone is calling another member foul names, etc.)
I will deal with any individual members who are causing problems. As for the topic, I see ZERO problem with it being discussed on CathInfo. I don't care if the topic makes men and/or women look bad at times. We're only talking about SOME men and SOME women, anyhow. And as for any protestant preacher or CI member who suggests it's "all women", simply know that he's wrong and move on!
And if you are weary of threads dealing with Feminism, the modern world, marriage, courtship, male/female relationships, marriage licenses with the State, etc. you are always welcome to ignore them.
I suppose now CathInfo has "become an anti-Feminist board" because we have more than 7 threads on a given topic? You guys make me laugh! :)
Learn how to ignore topics you don't like, people. No one is forcing you to click on ANY topic here.
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I suppose now CathInfo has "become an anti-Feminist board" because we have more than 7 threads on a given topic? You guys make me laugh! :)
I think it would be good thing if Cathinfo were known as an anti-Feminist board. One of my favourite things about this forum is the opposition to feminism.
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Another reason for a prenup and to avoid the court system.
A prenup would not help. Once there are accusations of abuse, it becomes a matter of criminal law.
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If you woud've read the quote more carefully, you'd see that there were not accusations of abuse UNTIL divorce proceedings were in process. And i'm sure such accusations were passive and circuмstantial, with no evidence.
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If you woud've read the quote more carefully, you'd see that there were not accusations of abuse UNTIL divorce proceedings were in process. And i'm sure such accusations were passive and circuмstantial, with no evidence.
I don't understand what point you are making.
Once a man is accused of abuse he is basically assumed to be guilty. There is no "innocent until proven guilty" in this area. The wife is given a restraining order against him, he is no longer allowed in the family home, and he is treated like a criminal. This happens whatever the stage of divorce proceedings. I cannot think of any way that a prenup could prevent it.
I have heard (and find credible) that some divorce lawyers routinely advise female clients to accuse the husband of abuse because it guarantees that she will get everything she asks for. She does not need to prove that it happened.
This is, obviously, horribly unjust. And a prenup is not going to fix this because the abuse charge overrides the agreements of the prenup.
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First, the abuse was used as a threat, not a direct accusation to police, and it was not spousal abuse but child abuse (i.e. spanking) that Ladislaus mentioned.
Second, a prenup would be desigend to PREVENT divorce proceedings so the threat of any abuse, especially if done through advice of an attorney, would've never have happened in the first place. A prenup would say, (in theory):
"Except for church approved reasons, any divorce proceedings you initiate, which would be heinously and violently opposed to the will of God and the Church, would result in the following:
(here the details of the agreement would be listed)"
Signed: Spouse A
Signed: Spouse B
-- END OF PRENUP
Once the immoral party decides to go through with the divorce, there would be no divorce arguments or bickering or threats in court. The goal of a prenup is that it's an "open and shut" case. Both parties signed the agreement, and here is what the agreement says. The court rules that the divorce is finalized and the spouses follow the rules of the prenup that they both signed. There's no advice from an attorney, no arguments, no witnesses - because the prenup explains what happens if there's a divorce. You sign the divorce papers and you leave court. 10 minutes and you're done. (Actually, you probably dont' even GO to court. It's probably all handled at the lawyer's office of the god-forsaken spouse that destroyed the marriage). A prenup, in theory, is a means to avoid court and public disclosures, which is why many wealthy and public figures use them, because they don't want their business plastered all over the newspapers.
The courts don't want to get involved in these things if they don't have to. Any judge will see that a prenup is signed and they will say "ok, there's nothing for me to do. This is a valid agreement and both parties must abide by its rules. Sign the paperwork and i'll get on with the next case. Good day."
If there turns out to be a squabble over someone not fulfilling the prenup, then that is a civil case and it would be handled at a later date, long after the divorce is settled. If the wife wants to accuse the husband of child abuse or something, she'd have to call CPS; it would not be part of divorce court.
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First, the abuse was used as a threat, not a direct accusation to police, and it was not spousal abuse but child abuse (i.e. spanking) that Ladislaus mentioned.
Second, a prenup would be desigend to PREVENT divorce proceedings so the threat of any abuse, especially if done through advice of an attorney, would've never have happened in the first place. A prenup would say, (in theory):
"Except for church approved reasons, any divorce proceedings you initiate, which would be heinously and violently opposed to the will of God and the Church, would result in the following:
(here the details of the agreement would be listed)"
Signed: Spouse A
Signed: Spouse B
-- END OF PRENUP
Once the immoral party decides to go through with the divorce, there would be no divorce arguments or bickering or threats in court. The goal of a prenup is that it's an "open and shut" case. Both parties signed the agreement, and here is what the agreement says. The court rules that the divorce is finalized and the spouses follow the rules of the prenup that they both signed. There's no advice from an attorney, no arguments, no witnesses - because the prenup explains what happens if there's a divorce. You sign the divorce papers and you leave court. 10 minutes and you're done. (Actually, you probably dont' even GO to court. It's probably all handled at the lawyer's office of the god-forsaken spouse that destroyed the marriage). A prenup, in theory, is a means to avoid court and public disclosures, which is why many wealthy and public figures use them, because they don't want their business plastered all over the newspapers.
The courts don't want to get involved in these things if they don't have to. Any judge will see that a prenup is signed and they will say "ok, there's nothing for me to do. This is a valid agreement and both parties must abide by its rules. Sign the paperwork and i'll get on with the next case. Good day."
If there turns out to be a squabble over someone not fulfilling the prenup, then that is a civil case and it would be handled at a later date, long after the divorce is settled. If the wife wants to accuse the husband of child abuse or something, she'd have to call CPS; it would not be part of divorce court.
Ladislaus was talking about a couple of different things. The point remains that once there are accusations of abuse it has become a criminal case, not a civil one.
Also, physical abuse is a Church approved reason for separation (civil divorce) so the prenup formula you suggest would not do anything.
Let's consider a scenario in which a completely immoral wife has decided she wants a divorce for bad reasons. A prenup will do nothing to help the man. All she needs to do is lie that he has abused her. Since she is completely immoral, she is quite prepared to do that.
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Let's consider a scenario in which a completely immoral wife has decided she wants a divorce for bad reasons. A prenup will do nothing to help the man. All she needs to do is lie that he has abused her. Since she is completely immoral, she is quite prepared to do that.
An accusation of spousal abuse (which Ladislaus never mentioned) might put the husband in jail for a few nights but unless it is proven in a court of law, which would involve witnesses and testimony, then the prenup would still be in force. And any false accusations would also include a prenup penalty.
Unless there is proof of abuse, then the Church would not approve of such a separation so the immoral spouse would be in violation of the prenup. No kids, very little $ - leave if you want, good luck.
Thirdly, the Church allows separation for violence/adultery, but divorce is only allowed for adultery (per Scripture).
Yes, a prenup would still help. It would cover all of these issues, with appropriate penalties for lies and illegal accusations.
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An accusation of spousal abuse (which Ladislaus never mentioned) might put the husband in jail for a few nights but unless it is proven in a court of law, which would involve witnesses and testimony, then the prenup would still be in force.
Now, you know full well that a mere accusation by a woman against a man is taken by the legal system as proof. Women need only allege abuse or rape ... and the man is convinced. You talk about the legal system being rigged against men (and it's true) but then seem to think that men will find justice. I know a guy who was falsely accused of abuse for spanking his daughter (he was a Traditional Catholic), and the judge gave the wife full custody of the children based on the allegation alone. And a judge so minded would throw out a prenup for the same reasons. Also, the woman would only have to allege that she was coerced into signing the prenup to have it thrown out ... and she would be believed. So these prenups are useless against the legal system.
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See, unless someone is accusing Ladislaus of bald face lying here, this is serious. It's something we need to address, consider, and discuss as Traditional Catholics.
No lying. Lying is a sin, and I wouldn't do that. These cases actually involve relatives of mine, so I am very well acquainted with the facts. Now both of the women who made these accusations of abuse for spanking were "converts" in order to get married. They "converted" to Traditional Catholicism but then made accusations of abuse based on just (non-excessive) corporal punishment when they wanted to get out of their marriage. One was having an affair (proven through text messages and e-mails) and the other one just wanted to get out of her marriage for various other reasons.
This experience is why I have spoken out about "conversion" marriages.
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A prenup would cover all of this. You don't see rich and famous people in court much, do you, for family reasons? Because their spouses know that if they try to play games with the court system then they get nothing. So, fine, accuse me of abuse - take the children through lies. You're right, there's nothing I can do stop it (in the short term) but if a spouse were to take that drastic action and they were cut off from the will, from a steady income, from a car, etc. they would live a painful life. Hopefully this threat, or the consequences afterwards, would wake them up.
A prenup is not going to prevent marital discord, or resentment, or divorce, but it can bring order and justice to an otherwise disordered and unjust legal system. Your real-life examples continue to prove that i'd rather have a prenup than not have one. At least I would have some defense in a 'worst case' scenario.
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An accusation of spousal abuse (which Ladislaus never mentioned) might put the husband in jail for a few nights but unless it is proven in a court of law, which would involve witnesses and testimony, then the prenup would still be in force. And any false accusations would also include a prenup penalty.
Unless there is proof of abuse, then the Church would not approve of such a separation so the immoral spouse would be in violation of the prenup. No kids, very little $ - leave if you want, good luck.
Thirdly, the Church allows separation for violence/adultery, but divorce is only allowed for adultery (per Scripture).
Yes, a prenup would still help. It would cover all of these issues, with appropriate penalties for lies and illegal accusations.
The Church does not allow divorce for any reason, including adultery. She allows for separation under some circuмstances and also civil divorce, but a Sacramental marriage bond is never dissolved.
Prenups which rely on identifying the "immoral spouse" are not going to work because most often both spouses think the other is the "immoral spouse".
Here is some legal information about false allegations of domestic violence: https://mensdivorce.com/fighting-false-allegations-abuse-divorce/ (https://mensdivorce.com/fighting-false-allegations-abuse-divorce/)
The first step in obtaining a permanent order of protection is to file for a Temporary Restraining Order, which simply requires telling a judge you think it is necessary.
This is done ex parte, meaning the defendant does not get the opportunity to defend himself. Since judges do not want to be on the wrong end of denying the request and then having a tragedy occur, the majority of the time it will be granted — even if the accused has no prior history of violence.
Domestic violence is taken very seriously by the courts, and it covers a much larger scope than people often realize (http://mensdivorce.com/domestic-violence-impacts-divorce/). If someone simply claims to feel threatened, this can be considered grounds for a temporary protection order, which instantly changes the dynamics of a divorce or custody dispute.
Without having the opportunity to refute any claims, give their side of the story or possibly without knowledge that charges were even filed, the accused can suddenly find themselves kicked out of their home and have their children taken away for at least as long as it takes to hold a formal hearing.
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A prenup would cover all of this. You don't see rich and famous people in court much, do you, for family reasons? Because their spouses know that if they try to play games with the court system then they get nothing. So, fine, accuse me of abuse - take the children through lies. You're right, there's nothing I can do stop it (in the short term) but if a spouse were to take that drastic action and they were cut off from the will, from a steady income, from a car, etc. they would live a painful life. Hopefully this threat, or the consequences afterwards, would wake them up.
A prenup is not going to prevent marital discord, or resentment, or divorce, but it can bring order and justice to an otherwise disordered and unjust legal system. Your real-life examples continue to prove that i'd rather have a prenup than not have one. At least I would have some defense in a 'worst case' scenario.
An unscrupulous woman is not going to have any problem getting around a prenup. You are better off putting your efforts into marrying a woman of good character in the first place.
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The Church does not allow divorce for any reason, including adultery. She allows for separation under some circuмstances and also civil divorce, but a Sacramental marriage bond is never dissolved.
We're talking about civil divorce here and have been for 5 different threads.
Prenups which rely on identifying the "immoral spouse" are not going to work because most often both spouses think the other is the "immoral spouse".
If you initiate a CIVIL divorce, unless for church-approved reasons, you get no $. You lose the children. This is what the prenup would say. The other spouse would help you to live and support you financially, but it would be based on THEIR terms, not the courts.
If you allege abuse and try to get the children back, the existence of a prenup would show "motivation" for lying and at least give the other spouse the opportunity to defend themselves.
I'd rather have a prenup than not. You can say "it won't work" but it could work in many circuмstances. I think you underestimate the power of a signed, witnessed, contract before the courts.
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You are better off putting your efforts into marrying a woman of good character in the first place.
We've already proven, by real-life examples, that 'good character' can be corrupted, and thus is not 100% full proof. I'd advise someone pray for a good spouse AND have a good prenup. Spritual + Temporal solutions to a problem are much better than just spiritual solutions (which hardly ever exist anyway).
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We're talking about civil divorce here and have been for 5 different threads.
Your statement was: "Thirdly, the Church allows separation for violence/adultery, but divorce is only allowed for adultery (per Scripture)."
This is not correct, if you are talking about civil divorce. The Church allows civil divorce whenever there is a separation and the divorce is needed to ensure legal rights, care of children or protection of an inheritance.
In any circuмstance in which separation is warranted there is potential for the Church allowing civil divorce.
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Ok, I misspoke, but what’s your point? Unless such a separation/divorce is approved by the church then the prenup penalties would kick in.
Don’t ask me to explain this in detail...i don’t have a prenup sitting in front of me. That’s what lawyers are for, who do this for a living. We’re discussing the THEORY behind a prenup.
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Don’t ask me to explain this in detail...i don’t have a prenup sitting in front of me. That’s what lawyers are for, who do this for a living. We’re discussing the THEORY behind a prenup.
This entire discussion of prenups has taken place without considering an actual prenup. We aren't even really looking at the legal principles or the theory behind them. It is all wishful thinking based on what people would like a prenup to be able to do. We have a few posters claiming that prenups can fix the injustice inherent in the system and discourage divorce. There are even some claiming that this is an objective fact.
We have seen no objective evidence at all to support this. It has all been speculation that somehow a lawyer will be able to figure out a way to make a prenup do these things. You are trying to fix a heart attack with a band-aid.
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Lawyers write prenups and deal with divorces for a living. There’s nothing “special” about a Trad divorce that a lawyer hasn’t seen or couldn’t anticipate. There is literally DECADES of evidence that prenups ensure a fairer divorce, than the husband-hating, anti-catholic court system.
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. We have a few posters claiming that prenups can fix the injustice inherent in the system and discourage divorce. There are even some claiming that this is an objective fact.
This is another strawman by you. Please quote the comments and people who stated it.
Prenups protect the man from having his life's work stolen from him by his wife and the State, if she were to "divorce" him. That's the point of having prenups. It's not about fixing the corrupt judicial system or discouraging divorce. A lower incidence of divorce might result, but that's merely a (arguably positive) consequence.
Prenups will also filter out the insidious women who have bad intentions before marriage, because they know they won't get anything when they try to divorce the man, therefore they won't even marry the man, or, if she refuses a prenup, the wise man will sever her from his life and find a true wife pure of heart and intention.
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See, unless someone is accusing Ladislaus of bald face lying here, this is serious. It's something we need to address, consider, and discuss as Traditional Catholics.
As always, if any has a problem with a particular post, please make use of the Report to Moderator link (if someone is calling another member foul names, etc.)
I will deal with any individual members who are causing problems. As for the topic, I see ZERO problem with it being discussed on CathInfo. I don't care if the topic makes men and/or women look bad at times. We're only talking about SOME men and SOME women, anyhow. And as for any protestant preacher or CI member who suggests it's "all women", simply know that he's wrong and move on!
And if you are weary of threads dealing with Feminism, the modern world, marriage, courtship, male/female relationships, marriage licenses with the State, etc. you are always welcome to ignore them.
I suppose now CathInfo has "become an anti-Feminist board" because we have more than 7 threads on a given topic? You guys make me laugh! :)
Learn how to ignore topics you don't like, people. No one is forcing you to click on ANY topic here.
Maybe you could make a "Pastor Dowell" subforum for all of CDF's I-hate-women threads and then remove it from the recent topics list.
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for all of CDF's I-hate-women threads
You show your malicious nature with this lie and sin of detraction.
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An unscrupulous woman is not going to have any problem getting around a prenup. You are better off putting your efforts into marrying a woman of good character in the first place.
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Maybe you could make a "Pastor Dowell" subforum for all of CDF's I-hate-women threads and then remove it from the recent topics list.
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Agreed. Or at least put them in the men-only subforum. I fail to see how truly traditional Catholic ladies need to hear all his hate.
CDF ad nauseam... :barf:
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It all boils down to examining your wife before marriage and don't let teen love blind you. This applies to the potential wife, too. Examine your future possible husband.
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https://youtu.be/Co-idmwMPv4
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I see I picked up 300 downthumbs overnight.
What'd you do, Croix, stay up all night?
Must not have a job to go to in the morning.
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As a domestic violence survivor it absolutely sickens me when I see women do this. It also makes it harder for REAL victims to win in court. I’ve had my heart broken plenty a times, and I never once thought that calling the police, and lying would be the perfect revenge. That being said women aren’t the only ones doing it these days. Men are too, but not to the same extent.
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I see I picked up 300 downthumbs overnight.
What'd you do, Croix, stay up all night?
Must not have a job to go to in the morning.
Huh? How is that possible?