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Author Topic: Hilaire Belloc - Any Non-Fans?  (Read 2486 times)

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Offline rum

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Hilaire Belloc - Any Non-Fans?
« on: December 20, 2023, 06:00:43 PM »
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  • I recently posted this as a reply to a thread created by Yeti, where I downplay Hilaire Belloc as a Judaizer:



    I haven't been able to find the text of The Catholic and War online. And I'm not going to pay for it. I have no reason to doubt that the synopsis I quoted is on point. Why wouldn't it be? I've long viewed Belloc as a Judaized lightweight. Chesterton, as well.

    Here's a paragraph about Belloc from Joseph Pearce's The Essential Belloc:

    ==============================================================

    What of the charge — or canard — of anti-Semitism, the last desperate act of politically correct mobs? Surely Belloc made slurs, but he emphatically was not an αnтι-ѕємιтє. He railed against those who hated Jews or thought them an appropriate scapegoat of society. He wrote an entire book called The Jews in 1922, which actually predicted the horror in the ghettos of Warsaw and the h0Ɩ0cαųst at the hands of the Third Reich. He described their plight accurately but without approval or rancor. Belloc no doubt had his prejudices, along with most of Edwardian England. But hating Jews was not one, and he defended them against cօռspιʀαcιҽs vociferously. His long-time personal secretary was a Jєωιѕн woman, and in his biography of Belloc A.N. Wilson points out that Belloc himself may have been descended of a Jєωιѕн great - grandfather, Moses Bloch.

    ===========================================================


    A few problems here. The term "politically correct" is a jew-promoted term, most heavily promoted by the jewy Bill Maher (who is as safe as milk on every subject under the sun and claims people only think he's Jєωιѕн because of his nose).

    Notice how Pearce uses a pro-тαℓмυdic definition of "anti-semitism" instead of a Catholic definition. Very common con, that I see all the time, and that flies over the heads of most "Catholics". Jesus came from a Jєωιѕн bloodline. All the apostles of the Church came from Jєωιѕн bloodlines. Anyone who hated people who sprout from a Jєωιѕн bloodline wouldn't worship a God who came from a Jєωιѕн bloodline. The Catholic Church is the New Israel. тαℓмυdic Jews should be hated. But according to Pearce Belloc was a good Catholic for not hating тαℓмυdists. No, Belloc was a bad Catholic for not hating тαℓмυdists. Pearce is accusing the Catholics who expelled Jews from Catholic states of being sinners. He's accusing Popes who made Jews wear special symbols on their clothing of being sinners.

    Pearce also believes in the h0Ɩ0h0αx. What a dummy.

    Belloc's "long-time personal secretary was a Jєωιѕн woman"?!?!

    What kind of person has a "personal secretary" anyway? Jew-created celebrities and jew-created politicians have "personal secretaries."

    Pearce and Belloc deserve each other. They are cut from the same cloth.

    Interesting, if true (and I'd wager it is), if Belloc had a тαℓмυdic great-grandfather.


    I'm curious what Incredulous and Mark79 think of Hilaire Belloc.
    Some would have people believe that I'm a deceiver because I've used various handles on different Catholic forums. They only know this because I've always offered such information, unprompted. Various troll accounts on FE. Ben on SuscipeDomine. Patches on ABLF 1.0 and TeDeum. GuitarPlucker, Busillis, HatchC, and Rum on Cathinfo.

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Hilaire Belloc - Any Non-Fans?
    « Reply #1 on: December 20, 2023, 06:11:22 PM »
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  • A lot of people twist Belloc to their own agenda. Same is true for a lot of modern-day Catholics, including Chesterton, Padre Pio, Cardinal Newman, Pope Leo XIII, and many others.

    If you want to object to some of Belloc's ideas (and he certainly had ideas I strongly object to, don't get me wrong), you have to quote Belloc himself, not people commenting on his writings or ideas.


    Offline rum

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    Re: Hilaire Belloc - Any Non-Fans?
    « Reply #2 on: December 20, 2023, 06:34:45 PM »
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  • A lot of people twist Belloc to their own agenda. Same is true for a lot of modern-day Catholics, including Chesterton, Padre Pio, Cardinal Newman, Pope Leo XIII, and many others.

    If you want to object to some of Belloc's ideas (and he certainly had ideas I strongly object to, don't get me wrong), you have to quote Belloc himself, not people commenting on his writings or ideas.
    Blah, blah, blah. People should read the original thread created by Yeti.

    What ideas did Belloc have to which you strongly object?
    Some would have people believe that I'm a deceiver because I've used various handles on different Catholic forums. They only know this because I've always offered such information, unprompted. Various troll accounts on FE. Ben on SuscipeDomine. Patches on ABLF 1.0 and TeDeum. GuitarPlucker, Busillis, HatchC, and Rum on Cathinfo.

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Hilaire Belloc - Any Non-Fans?
    « Reply #3 on: December 20, 2023, 07:36:17 PM »
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  • Blah, blah, blah. People should read the original thread created by Yeti.
    .

    I am happy to discuss this with you, but only if you speak in a civil and Christian manner.

    Quote
    What ideas did Belloc have to which you strongly object?


    He was a huge fan of the French Revolution in his youth. Even when he got older, he never seems to have realized that the entire attack on Christian monarchs was an existential attack on the Catholic Faith. That's probably my biggest objection to his ideas.

    Offline rum

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    Re: Hilaire Belloc - Any Non-Fans?
    « Reply #4 on: December 20, 2023, 07:43:15 PM »
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  • .

    I am happy to discuss this with you, but only if you speak in a civil and Christian manner.


    He was a huge fan of the French Revolution in his youth. Even when he got older, he never seems to have realized that the entire attack on Christian monarchs was an existential attack on the Catholic Faith. That's probably my biggest objection to his ideas.
    Go to your original thread I linked to and inspect the points I make about Belloc. Why did you reply here and not there? Because guests can see this thread and not the members only thread?

    I'm familiar with Belloc's enthusiasm for the French Revolution. That's the least of his worries.
    Some would have people believe that I'm a deceiver because I've used various handles on different Catholic forums. They only know this because I've always offered such information, unprompted. Various troll accounts on FE. Ben on SuscipeDomine. Patches on ABLF 1.0 and TeDeum. GuitarPlucker, Busillis, HatchC, and Rum on Cathinfo.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Hilaire Belloc - Any Non-Fans?
    « Reply #5 on: December 21, 2023, 08:38:50 AM »
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  • If you want to object to some of Belloc's ideas (and he certainly had ideas I strongly object to, don't get me wrong), you have to quote Belloc himself, not people commenting on his writings or ideas.

    Agreed.  One can't assume that these characterizations of Belloc are accurate.

    Offline OABrownson1876

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    Re: Hilaire Belloc - Any Non-Fans?
    « Reply #6 on: December 21, 2023, 09:41:32 AM »
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  • And besides, Belloc wrote almost 150 books.  A great number of people take one or two quotes from Belloc and turn it into a firestorm.  I read his "Suppression of Free Press In England," "Economics for Helen," his four volumes on the Queen Elizabeth era, and got a lot out of the volumes.  I still have some Belloc stuff on the shelf to read, but I doubt that Belloc would promote the basic principles of the French Revolution were he alive today. 
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Hilaire Belloc - Any Non-Fans?
    « Reply #7 on: December 29, 2025, 04:49:57 PM »
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  • Since this thread was reference elsewhere.  Belloc did "evolve" over time, and ended up more monarchist, but I think that the radical monarchists often deride those who oppose the absolute and hereditary monarchies that fell into place.

    St. Thomas Aquinas even outlined the problems with a hereditary absolute monarchy, where simply inheriting a right to rule means that you often have inferior rulers, and absolute unchecked monarchy leads to tyranny and also to tragic situations such as in England where a rogue heretic / apostate monarch dragged the entire country into heresy.

    I hold that there should be an autocratic rule but subject to numerous checks and balances ...

    1) Constitutional Restrictions
    2) Country's Catholic Bishops could Veto any decision, action, or legislation that the Autocrat attempted to impose on the grounds of their violating Catholic principles ... but the autocrat could appeal to the Pope in case he believed the bishops were wrong
    3) There should be an aristocratic body, like a House of Representatives that could veto legislation, actions, decisions based on other reasons unrelated to Catholic principles, such as whether they were prudent or imprudent, would benefit the country or not, and in particular the part of the country they represented.  Unlike the US system, this body would not make decisions or legislation, etc. ... but would only be in a position to veto the decisions of the autocrat, and perhaps this is where you'd need a 2/3 majority to exercise a veto.  This would be to protect people from burdensome, onerous, or imprudent activity

    So, the candidates for the House, the aristocrats, they would be elected by the People, but before being eligible for election, they would have to be approved by their local Bishop, and would Constitutionally have to be practicing Catholics, considered devout / devoted to the faith, and should also have to pass at least some minimum intellectual requirements (focusing on logic, philosophy, and other subjects).  Once certified, the people in a region would vote for their Candidate.

    No Candidate could spend any money to run for office or to buy/win influence.  Each candidate would be permitted equal time to advertise his positions and platform and make a case for himself, perhaps on some website or whatnot, and the people would be required to familiarize themselves with each candidate before voting.

    Voting would be limited to men, who are certified by their pastors as being practicing Catholics, but each man's vote would have weight according to the size of his household.  So if a single man voted, he got one vote, but if a man with a wife and 10 children voted, his vote would count for 11.  All this would have to be certified beforehand also by the priest (or a deacon).  This would limit the influence of emotional voting, but nevertheless, if various questions such as whether or not to declare war came up, or various economic questions ... a bunch of single guys or DINC types would not be able to vote for economic measures that favored them over those with large families or vote to go to war when they were too old themselves and would be sending other people's children to go die.

    In order to limit the pool, perhaps a committee of priests along with a bishop might pick the top 5 candidates in any given region as being allowed to run for office.  Perhaps candidates would be limited to those who had been Catholic for a certain number of generations, to limit the possibility of infiltrators faking conversion just to infiltrate the political system.

    Then, the aristocratic body could vote among themselves for who to elect President / Autocrat, etc. -- for a reasonable default term, perhaps something along the lines of 4 or 5 years.  But in the case of lost confidence, the aristocratic body could vote him out with a 2/3 majority, and then hold a new election.

    There would be no "Parties" or any crap like that which might be used to manipulate votes.  There would just be one "party", a Catholic "party".

    This would address nearly all the issues with hereditary absolute monarchies, where a monarch could become a tyrant, or be some moron who rules just because he's in the blood line, where there he would be checked by a Catholic (Church-approved) Constitution, as well as by aristocrats, who met certain religious and intellectual requirements, and thus are aristocrats, and not influenced by wealth where it could turn into a plutocracy, where elections could be "bought" by paying for influence.  You'd have to make illegal and disqualifying any attempts to "buy" or "canvas for" votes.  You would make a presentation, recorded speech, provide a written platform, be required to be certified by your pastor as a serious, credible Catholic (of several generations) as well as passing exams for intellectual capability (ability to reason).  From among these would also be elected the President.  Even voters would have to be practicing Catholics, would get weighted votes based-on the size of their households, women would be excluded to prevent emotionally-driven voting, and the voters would have to pass some very minimal quiz at least to indicate that they studied the choices somewhat and weren't complete morons.

    No Plutocracy, no Jewocracy, a Catholic Constituionally protected form of government subject to vetos by the Church as well as by the aristicratic body, etc.

    IMO ... perfect form of government.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Hilaire Belloc - Any Non-Fans?
    « Reply #8 on: December 29, 2025, 04:59:29 PM »
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  • Next would be a just economic system ... and Belloc's Distributism made a ton of sense.  There should be some room, of course, for larger-scale operations that required significant funding to be efficient and cost-effective and to scale, but you should never have these companies owned by someone where 90% of the profits go to the owner while the workers get minimum wages to split the remaining 10%.  Incomes and Profit Margins should all be regulated.  There's nobody who's worth 10 million dollars per year, while those busting their butts make under a living wage.  Nobody would be paid millions to play sports or be celebrities, or be paid millions just because they can product something at scale and charge pennies for each item.  Nobody needs that kind of money, or deserves that kind of money.  Usually it's just money that buys more opportunities to make money.  Incomes should be based on the size of your family.  There should be some scale there to encourage self-improvement, where if you study to become an engineer you can make more than someone who's unskilled, but it should be reasonable, and income should still be scaled to the size of your family.  Some single guy shouldn't make the same as the father of a family with 10 children, and therefore have lots of extra money to spare in order to then try creating more money with it, etc.  You shouldn't be rewarded for not having children in any way.  If some enterprises generate profit, these can be sent to some economic council that the aristocratic body above regular, and they can then use those funds in order to invest in areas where there might be gaps, or where there could be efficiency gains, etc.  There should be some think tanks where people could be rewarded for developing new ideas, for innovation, but again within reasonable limits ... so that unbridled greed is not the primary engine for and motivation behind innovation and creativity.  Many details can be worked out, but the high-level outlines can be found in Catholic social teaching as well as in Sacred Scripture where the Christians pooled all their resources, and made sure no one was left in need.  This is where the deacons came into being, since this took too much time for the Apostles to directly administer as their numbers grew.

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Hilaire Belloc - Any Non-Fans?
    « Reply #9 on: Today at 10:47:38 AM »
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  • I think Belloch was a Marrano.

    His book supporting the French Revolution was published shortly before WWI, with the intent to sway Catholic and Christian opinions to support the dismantling of what was left of European monarchies.

    Consider that this was Phase I of Albert Pike's plan to bring Luciferianism to the fore.

    Belloch was the early 20th Century version of Marrano media.  Taylor Marshall is analogous to the 21st Century Marrano.

    The MO is the same.  Build literary credibility as a Catholic writer and then when the time is right, promote disinformation and misdirection. 

    In Belloch's era, it took decades to do this.  In Taylor Marshall's time, a few years and he's a Catholic social media kingpin, now spinning for pope Bob.



    Socio-Political Issues


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    Hillaire Belloc, the Liberal - Part I

    ‘Only Ill-Informed Catholics
    Condemn the French Revolution’


    Patrick Odou


    This series will analyze Belloc’s position on the French Revolution and the Modern State. I based myself on several of his books, but principally on The French Revolution (New York: Henry Holt, 1911, 255 pp.)

    The French Revolution, which Belloc wrote in 1911 when he was 41, is an apologia of that revolution. He is a clear admirer of the French Revolution. I believe that there are many errors from a Catholic perspective in this book. Here I will address only one, which is the principle thesis and contention of his work. Belloc tries to convince his readers that there was no conflict between the Revolution’s concepts of State and Religion and those of the Catholic Church.




    Hillaire Belloc



    Hillaire Belloc supported the French Revolution's political theory
    Speaking as a Catholic, Belloc openly affirms that he is a supporter of the French Revolution’s political theory. He states: “If a personal point may be noted, the fact that the writer of these pages is himself a Catholic and in political sympathy strongly attached to the political theory of the Revolution, should not be hidden from the reader” (p. vii).

    He seems to grant the same degree of credence to the political theory of the French Revolution that a Catholic attributes to doctrine of Holy Mother Church herself: “The political theory upon which the Revolution proceeded … is universal, it is eternal, and it is true” (p. 13).

    He repeatedly states that, on an ideological level, there was no reason for the fight between the Revolution and the Church. Indeed he affirms that there would be “no conflict demonstrable between the theology of the Catholic Church and the political theory of the Revolution” (p. 224), which seems to be the exact opposite of the truth, as I will prove later in this article.

    Further, he states that one “cannot call the Revolution a necessary enemy of the Church” (p. 222). Again, he pretends that “there was no quarrel between the theology of the Catholic Church and the political theory of the Revolution” (pp. 225-226).

    Belloc belittles those who affirm the contrary as being ignorant, not rational and ill-equipped to address the matter. Indeed, he affirms: “We must, then, approach our business by asking at the outset the most general question of all: ‘Was there a necessary and fundamental quarrel between the doctrines of the Revolution and those of the Catholic Church?’ Those ill-acquainted with either party [the French Revolution or the Church], and therefore ill-equipped to reply, commonly reply with assurance in the affirmative” (p. 221). Further, he qualifies this opposition as “non-rational” (p.254).




    The Guillotine takes the life of a noble



    The guillotine took the lives of clergy and nobles faithful to the Church
    The more competent observers, he pretends, “cannot call the Revolution a necessary enemy of the Church” (p. 222).

    Trying to explain the historic conflict that took place between the Revolution and the Church, Belloc points to secondary factors, such as the decadence of the clergy, its close ties with the nobility, the presence of Huguenots in France who inspired the fights against the Church, mistakes in judgment by the Revolutionaries, etc.

    Then he affirms categorically that there is no opposition of principle between the Catholic Church and the French Revolution. There was just a “misunderstanding” that rose from coincidences and misconceptions:

    “There was no quarrel between the theology of the Catholic Church and the political theory of the Revolution; but the folly of this statesman, the ill drafting of that law, the misconception of such and such an institution, the coincidence of war breaking out at such and such a moment and affecting men in such and such a fashion - all these material accidents bred a misunderstanding between the two great forces, led into conflict the human officers and the human organizations which directed them; and conflict once established feeds upon, and grows from, its own substance” (p. 225).

    It is my opinion that in proposing such a thesis, Belloc falsifies reality, since the Catholic Church has always taught the opposite concerning the French Revolution, the philosophy that inspired it, the Enlightenment, and the religion that was behind it, Deism.

    This I proceed to prove with docuмents of the pontifical Magisterium.

    Pius VI: An uninterrupted sequence of impieties…

    That the revolutionaries were enemies of the Catholic Religion – contrary to the claim of Belloc – is clear from the words of Pius VI, who reigned at the time of the French Revolution. He described it with the following words:




    Revolutionary hordes



    Revolutionary hordes forced the royal family back to Paris to be killed
    “The most Christian King Louis XVI was condemned to death by an impious conspiracy, and this sentence was executed. We remind you in a few words the dispositions and reasons for that sentence. The National Convention had neither the right nor the authority to pronounce that sentence. Indeed, after having abolished the monarchical form of government, which is the best, it transferred all public power to the dominion of the people …

    “Celebrating the fall of the Altar and the Throne as a triumph of Voltaire, one exalts the fame and glory of all impious writers who appear as generals of a victorious army. After using all kinds of ploys to draw a large number of the people to their party … the partisans [of the French Revolution] manipulated the specious word Liberty. They raised it up like a trophy and invited the multitudes to gather under their banners which were displayed everywhere.

    “Here, in truth, is this philosophical liberty that tends to corrupt minds, degrade customs, and raze all laws and institutions …

    “After that uninterrupted sequence of impieties which had their origin in France, what man could doubt that one should blame this hatred of Religion on the intrigues and plots that today disturb all of Europe? No one can deny that it was this same cause that provoked the tragic death of Louis XVI” (1).

    Pius IX: Philosophers who reject the truths of Revelation…

    Pius IX attacks the philosophy that inspired the French Revolution as well as its unbalanced cult of reason - not a simple misunderstanding as Belloc supposes. In his Encyclical Qui pluribus, he states:



    Quote
    “In order to more easily mislead the people into error, deceiving in particular the imprudent and the inexperienced, they [the revolutionaries] pretend that they alone possess the secret of prosperity. They claim for themselves without hesitation the name of philosophers, as if philosophy, which is wholly concerned with the search for truth in nature, should reject those truths which God Himself, the supreme and most clement Author of nature, has deigned to manifest to men by His singular goodness and mercy so that mankind may attain true happiness and salvation.

    “Hence, by means of distorted and fallacious arguments, these enemies never stop invoking the power and excellence of human reason. They raise it up against the holy faith of Christ and spread everywhere with great foolhardiness that this faith is opposed to human reason. Without doubt, they could have devised nothing more senseless, impious, and opposed to reason itself. For although faith is above reason, there is no real opposition or discord whatsoever between them, since both proceed from the same greatest source of eternal and unchanging truth, God” (2).
    Gregory XVI and Pius IX: Liberty of conscience is a delirium

    Liberty of conscience and liberty of religion, demands introduced by the French Revolution, were also condemned by Pius IX in his Encyclical Quanta cura:




    Freedom of Press leads to printing of errors



    The Church opposed the revolutionary freedom for error to be printed and spread
    “Departing from this totally false idea of social government [that the State should be indifferent regarding religion], its propagators fearlessly foment the erroneous opinion, most fatal in its effects on the Catholic Church and the salvation of souls, which our predecessor Gregory XVI .... called ‘a delirium’ (Mirari vos), that is, that ‘liberty of conscience and worship is an inalienable right of the individual, which should be legally proclaimed and established in all rightly constituted societies; and that citizens have a right to an absolute liberty which should be restrained by no ecclesiastical or civil law; whereby they may openly and publicly manifest and state any of their ideas whatsoever, either by word of mouth, by press, or in any other way.’

    “But, while they rashly affirm this, they do not realize and consider that they are preaching ‘liberty of perdition’ (St. Augustine, Epistle 105, al. 166),and that ‘if human arguments are always allowed free room for discussion, there will never be wanting men who will dare to resist truth and to trust in the verbosity of human wisdom. Whereas we know, from the very teaching of Our Lord Jesus Christ, how carefully Christian faith and wisdom should avoid this most injurious drivel’ (St. Leo, Epistle 14, a. 133)” (3).

    Pius XII: FR and the modern world share the pride of Satan…

    Mentioning the French Revolution indirectly, Pius XII also condemned it and its fruit - the Modern State - as a manifestation of pride which shares that of Lucifer. That is, he condemns the political theory the Revolution advocated - and Belloc supported - as being opposed to religious principles. He states:




    Devils celebrate at Louis XVI's Execution


    A cartoonist shows Satan, bottom right, commanding the beheading of Louis XVI while the devils celebrate
    “In the same way that it [the modern world] tried to throw off the suave yoke of God, it simultaneously repudiated the order He established and, with the same pride of the rebellious Angel at the beginning of Creation, tried to institute another order according to its own will. After almost two centuries of sad experiments and missteps, all who are still of upright heart and mind confess that any such dispositions and impositions – those which have the name but not the substance of order – did not give the results they promised and do not correspond to the natural hopes of man” (4).

    Pius XII was most probably referring here to a well-known text of Cardinal Louis Billot, the intellectual adviser of St. Pius X, that qualified the French Revolution as satanic:



    Quote
    “The essentially anti-religious character and the impiety of the principle of Liberalism will be clear to the eyes of anyone who realizes that, properly speaking, this Liberalism is the source of the Great Revolution, which is rightly said to present so expressly and visibly a satanic character, so as to distinguish it from anything else seen in past times” (5).
    Conclusion of Part I

    It seems to me quite difficult to assert that these four Popes, along with Cardinal Billot are all ill-informed about the French Revolution, as Hillaire Belloc pretended.

    Instead, it is much easier for me to conclude that Belloc’s general acceptance of the French Revolution qualifies him as a liberal. Such general acceptance is included in the mentioned papal condemnations.



    Quote
    1. Pius VI, Allocution to the Consistory of June 17, 1793, Rome: Typis S. Congreg Propaganda Fidei, 1871, vol. 2, pp. 17, 25-26, 29-30;
    2. Pius IX, Qui pluribus, November 9, 1846, Recueil des Allocutions..., Paris: Adrien le Clere, 1865, pp. 175-177.
    3. Pius IX, Quanta cura, December 8, 1864, Recueil... pp. 5-7.
    4. Pius XII, Radio-message of Christmas 1949, Petropolis: Vozes, 1952, p. 28.
    5. Louis Billot, Les principes de 89 et leurs consequences, Paris: Tequi, p. 30.
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