Author Topic: Here we go again. (Read 1497 times)

antyshemanic · « **Reply #1 on:** June 05, 2007, 08:46:26 PM »

Quote

Ukraine's Jєωιѕн population was devastated during the h0Ɩ0cαųst. Babi Yar, a ravine outside the capital Kiev where the nαzιs slaughtered some 34,000 Jєωs over two days in September 1941, is a powerful symbol of the tragedy.

What Happened at Babi Yar?
Fact vs. Myth
BY Michael Nikiforuk

THE MEMORY of the "massacre" of Jєωs at Babi Yar is painful to all politicians. But evidence shows it never happened. Aerial reconnaissance photos taken before and during World War II show mass graves of victims of the Soviet Cheka/NKVD, but an absence of Jєωιѕн mass burials.

What if anything, happened at a place called Babi Yar (Old Woman's Ravine) near Kiev, Ukraine - September 29, 1941? According to official histories and inscriptions on monuments, 250,000 people, mostly Jєωs, were killed by the nαzιs there.

But if thousands of Kievan Jєωs (those not evacuated by the Soviets) were killed in September of 1941 by the Germans, they were not murdered or buried at Babi Yar. This fact was revealed in aerial reconnaissance photos discovered in the U.S. National Archives in Washington, DC.

Court throws out Babi Yar suit

In February 1997 a Ukrainian court threw out a case brought by Ukrainian Jєωs against V. Kretytnychy of the St. Andrew Society and E. Musiyenko, editor of the Kiev Evening News (Vechirnyi Kyiv), who challenged the official Babi Yar story. Encouraged by the court decision, on March 19, 1997 the Kiev Evening News published a four-page story setting the record straight for the first time since the Allies condemned the phony "atrocity" during World War II.

What is now coming to the fore is incontrovertible proof that no massacre took place at Babi Yar during the German occupation of Kiev; that the ravine was not used as a mass grave for Jєωs killed by the Germans. But it was a burial field between 1922-1935 for the victims of the Cheka/NKVD.

For decades, aerial photography has been recognized as an indispensable archaeological tool. With sophisticated equipment, ruins of ancient cities and cemeteries that lie under cultivated fields, forgotten for decades or centuries, have been discovered. Even submerged Hellenic ports have been discovered by aerial photography.

In 1991, wartime aerial photographs from the National Archives in Washington, DC were used as the ultimate guidance in exhumations of hundreds of Polish officers and intellectuals massacred in 1939-40 by the Soviet NKVD in the vicinity of Kharkiv. Aerial photos of Kiev's distant suburbs, including Bykivnia, Bilhorodka and Darnista, revealed mass graves of victims of the 1930's Stalinist terror-famine. It is therefore logical to assume that aerial photos of a ravine would reveal evidence of recent mass graves or of a major topographic disturbance.

The US National Archives in Washington contain about 1,100,000 wartime aerial photos, among them some 600 of Kiev, including Babi Yar. They were taken during 20 or more flights over the area. The first photos, taken at 12:23 pm on May 17, 1939, reveal such details as cars and even the shadows of the lamp posts on the streets of Kiev. Every large bush and small tree is visible on the slopes and at the bottom of the Babi Yar ravine. The last aerial photo coverage of Kiev (and Babi Yar) took place on June 18, 1944, about nine months after the city's "liberation" by the Red Army.

This series of reconnaissance photos demonstrates that the flora and the ground cover of the ravine remained undisturbed throughout the two years of German occupation. When the early and late photos are compared, it is obvious that the scattered trees grew and became slightly larger. No evidence of human or large animal activity in the ravine can be discerned on the many aerial photos of Babi Yar taken repeatedly in different seasons of the years 1939-1944.

In November of 1943, a group of Western journalists, including New York Times correspondent William "Bill" Lawrence, himself Jєωιѕн, were invited to Kiev by the Soviets. This occurred two weeks after the city's fall to the Red Army. The reporters were told that this was only six weeks after the Germans had completed the dynamiting, disinterment and open-air cremation of 70,000 corpses, followed by the crushing and bulldozing of the unburned bones into the soil of the ravine.
But the Western journalists were hard pressed to find any convincing physical evidence at the site of the alleged massacre.

The lack of reliable physical evidence of this "greatest massacre of World War II" - and the inability to find a single inhabitant of Kiev willing to corroborate the story - impelled the NKVD to provide the Westerners with three "eyewitnesses." Even though a Times editor censored out the most egregious exaggerations (about Soviet partisans and German "gassing vans"), the disjointed story by these three liberated Soviet POW's became the template for imitation for all subsequent Babi Yar testimonies.

When one realizes that all liberated Soviet POW's were facing either a firing squad or a short-lived future in the Gulags (it was a capital crime in the USSR for a soldier to be captured alive by the enemy), one realizes why it was easy for the NKVD to coerce any expedient statement from them.

Two weeks later, Soviet authorities were able to orchestrate massive "grass roots" support for their three Babi Yar witnesses. According to the "front pages of Moscow newspapers," (as reported in the United States), "40,000 Kiev residents [sent a letter] to Premier Josef Stalin, raising the estimate of the number killed and burned in the [Babi Yar] ravine to more than 10,000 (New York Times, Dec. 4, 1943).
Since - in later years - only 11 of these supposedly well-informed citizens offered any testimony, the wartime statistical reports in the NYT regarding Babi Yar (as well as the subsequent testimonies of belated witnesses) may be considered baseless. By 1943, the NKVD had a well-earned reputation for its ability to obtain any testimony from almost any witness.

For instance, in August of 1941, the Soviet press agency TASS and the Associated Press reported as fact the testimonies of NKVD-provided witnesses to the effect that the massacre of about 4,000 Ukrainians in NKVD prisons in the city of Lviv in late June of that year "was committed by the nαzι Storm troopers." This in spite of the fact that Lviv had not been taken by the Germans until July 1, 1941. Long famous testimony extorted by the NKVD from a large number of witnesses told of the mass murder of 4,500 Polish military officers and intellectuals by the nαzιs in the Katyn Forest. These fraudulent testimonies, taken under oath in the fall of 1943, were finally refuted by the Russians in the spring of 1990.

However, this admission was not forthcoming until the German pre-invasion aerial reconnaissance photo of Katyn (showing the mass graves of the Polish officers, teachers, etc.) had been transmitted in the fall of 1989 to the Soviet authorities.

Chronology suggests that the NKVD provided Western correspondents with three Soviet ex-POW, as witnesses of the Babi Yar massacre to test their credibility under scrutiny of non-Soviets. In 1943, the Babi Yar massacre, being almost unknown in the West and thus unimportant, was apparently selected by the NKVD for such a "dress rehearsal" prior to the contemplated exposure to Western journalists of fraudulent Katyn massacre witnesses in this far more publicized and more politically important affair.

As a result of the failed Babi Yar credibility test for their ex-POWs, the Soviets for 25 years did not provide access to live "eyewitnesses" of massacres to Western correspondents in Katyn or elsewhere.

Furthermore, the Soviets postponed the inspection of Katyn by Westerners for four months, from Sept. 29, 1943 to January 24, 1944, until the site and the physical evidence were covered by snow and literally frozen, as was the reporters' investigative zeal in the unheated tents provided them.

Among the observers of the work of the Soviet investigative commission was 25-year-old Kathleen Harriman (daughter of then-US Ambassador to Moscow W. Averell Harriman) who, in her naivete', later became (along with her father) a champion of Soviet credibility. On the other hand, the more experienced Lawrence from the NYT, who was also present, was even more skeptical in his Katyn report about presented evidence than in his earlier Babi Yar story. As a result, his Katyn report was spiked and never published.

Thus, the false testimony of the NKVD-provided eyewitnesses of the alleged Babi Yar massacre became the cornerstone of a decades-long Soviet judicial policy of not allowing their fraudulent atrocity witnesses to testify independently; that is, beyond the reach of the supervising Soviet prosecutor, or outside the borders of the USSR.

more:
http://judicial-inc.biz/Babi_Yar_3_sup.htm

antyshemanic · « **Reply #2 on:** June 05, 2007, 09:18:50 PM »

Trinity · « **Reply #3 on:** June 05, 2007, 09:33:25 PM »

It's getting so you don't dare toss a bone to your dog, for fear of someone screaming "h0Ɩ0cαųst victim". Not kidding. They've become rabid bone collectors. I think it is some form of insanity.

What strikes me reading this is that things were far worse back then than we were ever lead to believe or even suspect. How can so MANY people go missing without a word in the history books? Maybe we should get on the h0Ɩ0cαųst bandwagon.

antyshemanic · « **Reply #4 on:** June 06, 2007, 10:08:38 AM »

Quote from: Trinity

What strikes me reading this is that things were far worse back then than we were ever lead to believe or even suspect. How can so MANY people go missing without a word in the history books? Maybe we should get on the h0Ɩ0cαųst bandwagon.

Jun 12, 2007 Dedication of Victims of Communism Memorial

http://www.victimsofcommunism.org/

TO THE VICTIMS OF COMMUNISM, LEST WE FORGET
By Jeff Jacoby
The Boston Globe
December 7, 1995
In 1993, President Clinton signed Public Law 103-199, authorizing a memorial in Washington to those who died in the ``unprecedented imperial Communist h0Ɩ0cαųst'' that began in 1917. It is a memorial long overdue. And it is well-suited to Washington, the capital of the Free World and the headquarters of what President Kennedy called the ``long twilight struggle'' against the totalitarians of the Left.

When completed, the Victims of Communism Memorial will include a museum docuмenting the crimes committed by the disciples of Marx and Lenin; original artifacts from the bitter night of Communist brutality (a piece of the Berlin Wall, a cell from the ``Hanoi Hilton''); and a database preserving the names of those wiped out in history's greatest slaughter.

Or at least as many of those names as can be identified. It is impossible that we shall ever know them all. Every one of the hundreds of thousands of Cossacks butchered on Lenin's orders in 1919? Every Miskito Indian killed in Nicaragua under the Sandinistas? Every Chinese peasant, all 2 million-plus of them, obliterated during Mao Zedong's ``land reform'' in the early 1950s? Impossible.

For pure murderous evil, there has never been a force to compare with Communism. The nαzιs didn't come close. The h0Ɩ0cαųst was uniquely malignant - never before or since did one people construct a vast industry of death for the sole purpose of rounding up and destroying every single member of another people. But the nαzιs exterminated 11 million innocents; the Communist death toll surpasses 100 million. nαzι power lasted from 1933 to 1945. The Communist nightmare began in November 1917, and continues to this day.

Savagery has always been a hallmark of Communism. It is an ideology that requires the destruction of human beings. ``We have never rejected terror in principle,'' wrote Lenin in 1901, ``nor can we do so.''

Half a century later, even as he denounced the extremes to which his predecessors went, Nikita Khrushchev vowed that the terror so esteemed by Lenin would go on. ``The questioning of Stalin's terror,'' he cautioned the Twentieth Party Congress in 1956, ``may lead to the questioning of terror in general. But Bolshevism believes in the use of terror.'' Not long afterward, Khrushchev sent 3,000 Soviet tanks to crush the Hungarian freedom fighters.

Communism equals murder. Everywhere. Always.

In Ukraine, for example, where 7 million people were starved to death on the Kremlin's orders. ``If you go now to the Ukraine or the North Caucuses,'' wrote British journalist Malcolm Muggeridge in 1933, ``exceedingly beautiful countries and formerly amongst the most fertile in the world, you will find them like a desert; . . . no livestock or horses; villages deserted; peasants famished, often their bodies swollen, unutterably wretched.'' Farmers who took grain or vegetables from their own land were shot. Dead bodies littered the streets of Kharkov, the capital. ``It was,'' an eyewitness later recalled, ``as if the Black Death had passed through.''

Communism equaled murder in Ethiopia, where Mengistu Haile Mariam became dictator in 1977 and embarked on what he called his ``Red Terror.'' Tens of thousands were massacred, including the graduating seniors of almost every high school in Addis Ababa.

Communism equaled murder in North Vietnam as far back as 1945, when Ho Chi Minh resolved to annihilate his Nationalist rivals. ``It was appalling,'' recorded the historian Lucien Bodard. ``Thousands, maybe tens of thousands of men had been liquidated . . .. The intention was that horror and dread should extinguish the last trace of respect for them among the masses: Their execution had to be both shameful and terrifying. That was the reason for the mass executions of hundreds at once, the fields of prisoners buried alive, the harrows dragged over men buried up to the neck.''

Communism equaled murder in Tibet, where Mao's campaign to extirpate Buddhist culture turned 1.2 million Tibetans into corpses. It equaled murder in gentle Cambodia, where the bloodlust of the Khmer Rouge vaporized one-third of the nation in less than four years. It equaled murder in Cuba, in East Germany, in Afghanistan. From Stettin in the Baltic to Trieste in the Adriatic - murder. In the Gulag and the laogai - murder. At Tienanmen Square - murder. In the Korean War and the Vietnam War, in the forest of Katyn and the dungeons of the Lubyanka - murder.

One hundred million victims of Communism. And those are only the victims who were slain. It doesn't include those who were maimed or driven mad. Those whose lives went dark when a loved one was butchered. Those who spun out their years in potato queues, in vodka stupors, in daily fear. It doesn't include those who wasted 30 years as slaves in Siberia. The boat people who flung themselves into the South China Sea. The stifled poets, the gagged priests, the tormented refuseniks, the exiled democrats.

Rarely do we think of them, or of the hundred million. We forget how pathologically evil Communism has been, or why we poured so much blood and treasure into fighting the Cold War. It is to correct that amnesia that the Victims of Communism Memorial will be built.

For information, contact:
VICTIMS OF COMMUNISM MEMORIAL FOUNDATION
P.O. Box 1997
Washington, DC 20013
202-785-0266
202-785-0261 (fax)

Trinity · « **Reply #5 on:** June 06, 2007, 10:51:11 AM »

When a child has done something wrong they will often point the finger and yell bloody murder about something another child has done to get the attention off him and his crimes. I wonder....

I guess what I think of about these 100 million is the family members. They know grandpa or uncle or aunt, etc. disappeared and yet it's all in a vacuum. I can't imagine what it must be like to have their families so shredded and nothing but silence. Even this memorial doesn't begin to address it.

hollingsworth · « **Reply #6 on:** July 12, 2007, 07:32:26 PM »

Have they found any mass graves of the approximately 5 to 7 million Ukranians deliberately and systematically starved to death around 1932? It shouldn't be too difficult to come across a few non-Jєωιѕн mass graves there.

Trinity · « **Reply #7 on:** July 12, 2007, 08:12:23 PM »

I'll ask Anty and Luki. They would know if anyone does. Quo Vadis Petre might, too. Anyone seen him lately?

dust-7 · « **Reply #8 on:** July 13, 2007, 11:29:51 PM »

Quote from: antyshemanic

Thus, the false testimony of the NKVD-provided eyewitnesses of the alleged Babi Yar massacre became the cornerstone of a decades-long Soviet judicial policy of not allowing their fraudulent atrocity witnesses to testify independently; that is, beyond the reach of the supervising Soviet prosecutor, or outside the borders of the USSR.

So you deny that any Jєωs were murdered at the ravines of Babi Yar by Sonderkommando 4a on September 29 and 30, 1941? Instead, these are former Cheka victims, the bodies buried and rotting there long before the nαzιs came into the area?

You say that modern forensics might show, had circuмstances been different and allowed for it in theory, that the corpses had been there over a decade or more. But since all evidence has presumeably been destroyed, that's an avenue which is closed, and subject only to speculation.

That means one must produce these aerial photos of the precise group of ravines in late 1941. Failing to do so again can produce only speculation. And in doing so, one must be able to categorically provide traceability, to prove that the images are as described.

It then means one must question any docuмentation, such as that of 2 OCT 1941, speaking of "executed 33,771 Jєωs in Kiev on September 29 and 30, 1941." You probably could since I, personally, don't have a photocopy of the original.

You also seem to deny the roundup at all, since so many were involved - presumeably 33,771, exactly. That's a lot of people. That would mean denying that banners like this were posted around town, saying to meet at 8AM near the cemetery, regardless of what happened, afterward.

In short, I can appreciate that some eyewitness accounts seem a bit similar, and a bit far-fetched. And raw numbers have been exaggerated, in other cases, in the cause of the 'h0Ɩ0cαųst'. That should never have been done, no matter how 'well-intentioned'. But one can't cherry-pick, either. If it means contradicting witnesses, then one should show the contradictions. If it means contradicting a string of nαzι docuмents referring the event, then one needs to show that there's no clear chain of custody for these, and that the docuмents could be worth no more, historically, that those promoted by Dan Rather. And so on. Otherwise, you have to account for ALL of the evidence.

Trinity · « **Reply #9 on:** July 14, 2007, 06:28:06 AM »

The feeling of many here, self included, is that the shoah business is a big rip off in a whole lot of ways. We have become skeptical of the whole thing.

dust-7 · « **Reply #10 on:** July 14, 2007, 11:23:48 PM »

Quote from: Trinity

The feeling of many here, self included, is that the shoah business is a big rip off in a whole lot of ways. We have become skeptical of the whole thing.

I think one NEEDS to look at all the facts. There clearly has been fraud and exaggeration, some of it probably even 'well-intentioned', in retelling the 'tales of the h0Ɩ0cαųst'. But the ends don't justify the means. And that doesn't mean that it didn't happen. There are many docuмents and witnesses. All would have to be successfully challenged.