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Author Topic: How is Pope John XXIII a saint (??) & Pius XII is not?  (Read 2292 times)

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Offline DZ PLEASE

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Re: How is Pope John XXIII a saint (??) & Pius XII is not?
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2017, 04:23:41 AM »
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  • How is Pope John XXIII a saint (??) & Pius XII is not?  

    Don't worry. It is only a matter of time and Pope Pius XII will be known as Pope St. Pius XII
    How do you know that? Why is it that people, esp. those of the consilliest variety, make with the "who am I to judge/don't judge" bit save when said judgment is of the "charitable" sort?

    Does this application of judgment belong to God, or doesn't it?
    "Lord, have mercy".


    Offline poche

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    Re: How is Pope John XXIII a saint (??) & Pius XII is not?
    « Reply #16 on: October 14, 2017, 04:35:58 AM »
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  • How do you know that? Why is it that people, esp. those of the consilliest variety, make with the "who am I to judge/don't judge" bit save when said judgment is of the "charitable" sort?

    Does this application of judgment belong to God, or doesn't it?
    That is true, the judgment belongs to God. However the holiness of Pope Pius XII is such that I would not be surprised that he could be canonized. It would only be a matter of time.   


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: How is Pope John XXIII a saint (??) & Pius XII is not?
    « Reply #17 on: October 14, 2017, 04:36:16 AM »
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  • Because Pope Pius XII was a Catholic and Roncalli was not.
    Pope John XXIII was pope and Catholic, thankfully, he asked for and received the (traditional) Last Sacraments before he died. This means he is at least to be counted among the faithful departed. Catholics either believe that he is at least in purgatory, or they have no faith whatsoever in the reason for and the power of, the last sacraments.  

    “The Holy Father had received the last sacraments of the Church on Saturday morning (June 1) at his own request. He had been attended with loving care right to the end by his closest collaborators and by his doctors."
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: How is Pope John XXIII a saint (??) & Pius XII is not?
    « Reply #18 on: October 14, 2017, 04:44:22 AM »
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  • That is true, the judgment belongs to God. However the holiness of Pope Pius XII is such that I would not be surprised that he could be canonized. It would only be a matter of time.  
    You first affirm and then, in the next "breath", deny by just say the same thing in a different way.

    People keep pointing these sorts of things out to you, and you just "keep on truckin'"

    Obstinacy under guile remains obstinacy.
    "Lord, have mercy".

    Offline cassini

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    Re: How is Pope John XXIII a saint (??) & Pius XII is not?
    « Reply #19 on: October 16, 2017, 02:06:11 PM »
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  • .
    Pius XII placed Annibale Bugnini (a Freemason) in his office where he proceeded to set up for Vatican II and the Newmass.
    .
    Pius XII began the process of dismantling the Mass by making changes in the Holy Week liturgy which was of Apostolic origin.
    .
    Pius XII allowed changes in the Psalms which turned into changing the Breviary all the priests prayed daily, with 150 Psalms each week.
    .
    Pius XII postponed the council that would have defined Mary Mediatrix and Co-Redemptrix for all time.
    .
    Pius XII neglected to make the Collegial Consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, with all the consequences thereof.
    .
    Pius XII played footsie with the world so-called scientific community adopting their terms and raising questions about the inerrancy of Scripture.
    .
    Instead of leaving the legacy of Teilhard de Chardin behind, he gradually began to adopt his terminology opening the door to Modernism.
    .
    Pius XII did a lot of good things, but somehow he allowed evil to lie as if dormant waiting for him to die so it could take control.
    .

    I once had correspondence with Martin Gwynne, a sedevacantist who ran Britain's library. Martin was a brilliant writer and scholar. He once told me Pope Pius XII was the worst pope ever. Puzzled I asked him to explain. I never got the details but I think he had a paper giving all the errors like above. Ultimately, he said, it was no coincidence that the Church after his reign produced Vatican II. No other pope in history preceded such a blow to Catholicism.

    When I read Pius XII's utterances to the Pontifical Academy of Science, endorsing the Big Bang billions of years ago and the evolution of all I said, no traditionalist here. Then when he wrote Humani Generis, allowing all to actually take evolution seriously, I could not believe it. When he said the body of Adam might have come from a pre existing animal, I cringed. What his encyclical never said was 'where did the body of Eve come from? There is NO evolutionary EVE that could explain how she came from the first man, Adam. It is stuff like that that gave modernism its credibility.


    Finally, it was Vatican II that was 'canonised' plunging the Church into further chaos. God help me but I will never address any Vatican IIites as 'Saints.'


    Offline LeDeg

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    Re: How is Pope John XXIII a saint (??) & Pius XII is not?
    « Reply #20 on: October 16, 2017, 04:14:02 PM »
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  • I once had correspondence with Martin Gwynne, a sedevacantist who ran Britain's library. Martin was a brilliant writer and scholar. He once told me Pope Pius XII was the worst pope ever. Puzzled I asked him to explain. I never got the details but I think he had a paper giving all the errors like above. Ultimately, he said, it was no coincidence that the Church after his reign produced Vatican II. No other pope in history preceded such a blow to Catholicism.

    When I read Pius XII's utterances to the Pontifical Academy of Science, endorsing the Big Bang billions of years ago and the evolution of all I said, no traditionalist here. Then when he wrote Humani Generis, allowing all to actually take evolution seriously, I could not believe it. When he said the body of Adam might have come from a pre existing animal, I cringed. What his encyclical never said was 'where did the body of Eve come from? There is NO evolutionary EVE that could explain how she came from the first man, Adam. It is stuff like that that gave modernism its credibility.


    Finally, it was Vatican II that was 'canonised' plunging the Church into further chaos. God help me but I will never address any Vatican IIites as 'Saints.'
    It's refreshing to see the awakening of the truth behind PXII. 
    "You must train harder than the enemy who is trying to kill you. You will get all the rest you need in the grave."- Leon Degrelle

    Offline cassini

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    Re: How is Pope John XXIII a saint (??) & Pius XII is not?
    « Reply #21 on: October 16, 2017, 04:16:37 PM »
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  • Just read that Réginald Marie Garrigou-Lagrange, O.P. (1877–1964) was a French Catholic theologian and that he is
    said to be the drafter of Pope Pius XII's 1950 encyclical Humani generis, subtitled "Concerning Some False Opinions Threatening to Undermine the Foundations of Catholic Doctrine".

    He means allowing false opinions 'Threatening to Undermine the Foundations of Catholic Doctrine.'


    In his 1992 Galileo commission speech, Pope John Paul II said this:

    8. Another crisis similar to the one we are speaking of, can be mentioned here. In the last century and at the beginning of our own, advances in the historical sciences made it possible to acquire a new understanding of the Bible and of the biblical world. The rationalist context in which these data were most often presented seemed to make them dangerous to the Christian faith. Certain people, in their concern to defend the faith, thought it necessary to reject firmly-based historical conclusions. That was a hasty and unhappy decision. The work of a pioneer like Fr Lagrange was able to make the necessary discernment on the basis of dependable criteria.

    He talks about Long-ages, and evolution making it possible to understand the Bible better.

    God help the Church. 

    Offline Geremia

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    Re: How is Pope John XXIII a saint (??) & Pius XII is not?
    « Reply #22 on: October 17, 2017, 11:23:38 AM »
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  • Just read that Réginald Marie Garrigou-Lagrange, O.P. (1877–1964) was a French Catholic theologian and that he is
    said to be the drafter of Pope Pius XII's 1950 encyclical Humani generis, subtitled "Concerning Some False Opinions Threatening to Undermine the Foundations of Catholic Doctrine".

    He means allowing false opinions 'Threatening to Undermine the Foundations of Catholic Doctrine.'


    In his 1992 Galileo commission speech, Pope John Paul II said this:

    8. Another crisis similar to the one we are speaking of, can be mentioned here. In the last century and at the beginning of our own, advances in the historical sciences made it possible to acquire a new understanding of the Bible and of the biblical world. The rationalist context in which these data were most often presented seemed to make them dangerous to the Christian faith. Certain people, in their concern to defend the faith, thought it necessary to reject firmly-based historical conclusions. That was a hasty and unhappy decision. The work of a pioneer like Fr Lagrange was able to make the necessary discernment on the basis of dependable criteria.
    Fr. Lagrange was an (in?)famous exegete (not to be confused with Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange; I think the latter was his nephew).
    Still, it's true John Paul II is Modernism in what you quoted.
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    Offline cassini

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    Re: How is Pope John XXIII a saint (??) & Pius XII is not?
    « Reply #23 on: October 17, 2017, 03:01:59 PM »
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  • Fr. Lagrange was an (in?)famous exegete (not to be confused with Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange; I think the latter was his nephew).
    Still, it's true John Paul II is Modernism in what you quoted.

    Many thanks for correction Geremia. I was wondering because Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange;wrote THE LITURGICAL YEAR which I have all 15 volumes of and consider the best ever written.

    Offline Maria Regina

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    Re: How is Pope John XXIII a saint (??) & Pius XII is not?
    « Reply #24 on: October 17, 2017, 05:45:33 PM »
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  • Many thanks for correction Geremia. I was wondering because Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange;wrote THE LITURGICAL YEAR which I have all 15 volumes of and consider the best ever written.
    Yes, when I studied theology, we were often referred to Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange huge volumes, which were on reserve in the library if they were out of print and not available.
    Lord have mercy.

    Offline cassini

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    Re: How is Pope John XXIII a saint (??) & Pius XII is not?
    « Reply #25 on: October 18, 2017, 02:50:11 PM »
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  • Fr. Lagrange was an (in?)famous exegete (not to be confused with Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange; I think the latter was his nephew).
    Still, it's true John Paul II is Modernism in what you quoted.

    Marie-Joseph Lagrange (7 March 1855, Bourg-en-Bresse – 10 March 1938. Père Lagrange, like other scholars involved in the 19th century renaissance of biblical studies, was suspected of being a Modernist. --- Wiki.

    Once you see 'suspected' you can bet on it.


    Then there is Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange (1877-1964) who is the one that probably taught John Paul II.


    Offline Maria Regina

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    Re: How is Pope John XXIII a saint (??) & Pius XII is not?
    « Reply #26 on: October 18, 2017, 04:02:37 PM »
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  • Marie-Joseph Lagrange (7 March 1855, Bourg-en-Bresse – 10 March 1938. Père Lagrange, like other scholars involved in the 19th century renaissance of biblical studies, was suspected of being a Modernist. --- Wiki.

    Once you see 'suspected' you can bet on it.


    Then there is Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange (1877-1964) who is the one that probably taught John Paul II.

    Many others taught John Paul II. Do not forget that he had acting lessons taught by a non-Christian, who greatly influenced him.

    There is an Ancient Canon that stipulates that actors are to be excommunicated. Is this canon in the 1917 or 1983 Code of Canon law?
    If not, why not?
    Lord have mercy.