Author Topic: Have you ever heard a sermon against usury?  (Read 1125 times)

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Offline Geremia

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Have you ever heard a sermon against usury?
« on: June 09, 2014, 06:50:22 PM »
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  • Have you ever heard a priest preach against usury?

    I ask because this issue seems even more controversial than contraception or abortion, especially because in the minds of some, anti-usury = anti-Jew.

    My Spanish-speaking brother-in-law works for a credit card company customer service, and the stories he tells are so sad! The poor Mexican families have no idea how interest works, and it's obvious they are being deceived/cheated big time.
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    Offline insidebaseball

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    Have you ever heard a sermon against usury?
    « Reply #1 on: June 09, 2014, 07:47:17 PM »
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  • To many conflicts of "interest".


    Offline shin

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    Have you ever heard a sermon against usury?
    « Reply #2 on: June 09, 2014, 10:12:55 PM »
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  • 'He that hath given forth his money upon usury, or hath taken increase, shall he live? he shall not live, saith the Lord.'

    Ezekiel 18:12-13
    Sincerely,

    Shin

    'Flores apparuerunt in terra nostra. . . Fulcite me floribus.' (The flowers appear on the earth. . . stay me up with flowers. Sg 2:12,5)'-

    Offline Geremia

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    Have you ever heard a sermon against usury?
    « Reply #3 on: June 10, 2014, 11:59:03 PM »
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  • Interestingly, St. Thomas writes in Summa Theologica II-II q. 78 a. 4 that it can be "lawful to borrow money under the condition of usury" because "it is lawful to make use of another's sin for a good end":
    Quote from: St. Thomas
    Accordingly we must also answer to the question in point that it is by no means lawful to induce a man to lend under a condition of usury: yet it is lawful to borrow for usury from a man who is ready to do so and is a usurer by profession; provided the borrower have a good end in view, such as the relief of his own or another's need.
    Thus, if a priest were to preach against usury, he would only be speaking to a tiny fraction of his congregation, as most people (Catholics especially) are not money-lenders. However, the priest could also talk about responsibly borrowing money.
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    Offline Geremia

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    Have you ever heard a sermon against usury?
    « Reply #4 on: June 11, 2014, 12:00:42 AM »
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  • Quote from: shin
    'He that hath given forth his money upon usury, or hath taken increase, shall he live? he shall not live, saith the Lord.'

    Ezekiel 18:12-13
    Is that a command or a statement of fact? (perhaps both)
    It makes sense that one cannot live off money alone, because it is not per se productive or consumable.
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    Offline Geremia

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    Have you ever heard a sermon against usury?
    « Reply #5 on: June 11, 2014, 12:10:40 AM »
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  • Quote from: insidebaseball
    To many conflicts of "interest".
    :roll-laugh2:
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    Offline Geremia

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    Re: Have you ever heard a sermon against usury?
    « Reply #6 on: October 15, 2017, 07:50:32 PM »
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  • Here's one:
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    Offline PG

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    Re: Have you ever heard a sermon against usury?
    « Reply #7 on: October 15, 2017, 09:05:33 PM »
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  • Geremia - thank for the st thomas quote/teaching.  To me, that quote/teaching has to be wrong.  I consider that being an accessory to ones sin and the sin of omission.  I don't know how he gets away with it.  Maybe it is a shock/awe factor, but I cannot say for sure.  That is the problem with usury.  There are loopholes that make the montes peitatitis justifiable.  But, to approve going to jews basically who won't loan for under 5% interest is the problem.  5% is their minimum and infinity is their goal(as we now know).  Their rates are sinfully high and I suspect there are other problems that I won't now discuss.  
    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15


    Offline Geremia

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    Re: Have you ever heard a sermon against usury?
    « Reply #8 on: October 15, 2017, 10:58:05 PM »
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  • Geremia - thank for the st thomas quote/teaching.  To me, that quote/teaching has to be wrong.  I consider that being an accessory to ones sin and the sin of omission.
    Your objection appears to be that of Summa Theologica II-II q. 78 a. 4 arg 1:
    Quote from: St. Thomas Aquinas
    Objection 1: It would seem that it is not lawful to borrow money under a condition of usury. For the Apostle says (Rm. 1:32) that they "are worthy of death . . . not only they that do" these sins, "but they also that consent to them that do them." Now he that borrows money under a condition of usury consents in the sin of the usurer, and gives him an occasion of sin. Therefore he sins also.
    To which he answers (ibid. ad 1):
    Quote from: St. Thomas Aquinas
    Reply to Objection 1: He who borrows for usury does not consent to the usurer's sin but makes use of it. Nor is it the usurer's acceptance of usury that pleases him, but his lending, which is good.
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    Offline LeDeg

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    Re: Have you ever heard a sermon against usury?
    « Reply #9 on: October 16, 2017, 04:19:08 PM »
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  • Usury is a real problematic subject for the Church historically speaking. It never endorsed the practice at any level until the renaissance, which coincided with the powerful banking families like the Medici's influencing the Vatican. And we all know who really was behind the banking industry.


    The Jewish take over of the Church will not allow the practice to be spoken against. It's their leverage against the world.
    "The whole secret of the campaigns unleashed against Europe can be explained in two words: Masonry and Communism... we have to extirpate these two evils from our land." -Franco

    Offline JPaul

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    Re: Have you ever heard a sermon against usury?
    « Reply #10 on: October 16, 2017, 06:54:39 PM »
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  • Usury is a real problematic subject for the Church historically speaking. It never endorsed the practice at any level until the renaissance, which coincided with the powerful banking families like the Medici's influencing the Vatican. And we all know who really was behind the banking industry.


    The Jewish take over of the Church will not allow the practice to be spoken against. It's their leverage against the world.
    When the Church placed "Peter's Pence" into the hands of the usurious bankers it was a great moral and religious betrayal.


    Offline Geremia

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    Re: Have you ever heard a sermon against usury?
    « Reply #11 on: October 17, 2017, 10:33:49 AM »
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  • Gregory IX (d. 1241) said in a letter, "He who loans a sum of money to one sailing or going to market, since he has assumed upon himself a risk, is not to be considered a usurer who will receive something beyond his lot." See 448 in Denzinger.
    It seems the editors added in a parenthetical "[not]"! Here's the full quote:
    Quote from: Gregory IX
    He who loans a sum of money to one sailing or going to market, since he has assumed upon himself a risk, is [not] to be considered a usurer who will receive something beyond his lot. He also who gives ten solidi, so that at another time just as many measures of grain, wine, and oil may be payed back to him, and although these are worth more at the present time, it is probably doubtful whether at the time of payment they will be worth more or less, for this reason should not be considered a usurer. By reason of this doubt he also is excused, who sells clothing, grain, wine, oil, or other wares so that at a set time he receives for them more than they are worth at that time, if, however, he had not intended so to sell them at the time of the contract.
    Even the 1911 edition (p. 199) has an added "[non?]":
    Quote from: DZ 448
    Naviganti vel eunti ad nundinas certam mutuans pecuniae quantitatem, eo quod suscipit in se periculum, recepturus aliquid ultra sortem, usurarius [non?] est censendus. Ille quoque, qui dat X solidos, ut alio tempore totidem sibi grani, vini et olei mensurae reddantur: quae, licet tunc plus valeant, utrum plus vel minus solutionis tempore fuerint valiturae, verisimiliter dubitatur: non debet ex hoc usurarius reputari. Ratione huius dubii etiam excusatur, qui pannos, granum, vinum, oleum vel alias merces vendit,ut amplius, quam tunc valeant, in certo termino recipiat pro eisdem, si tamen ea tempore contractus non fuerat venditurus.
    I wonder if this inspired Shakeaspeare's Merchant of Venice? They both talk about merchant ships.

    (Also, 1911 is after 1890, which is when La Civiltà Cattolica sounded the alarm about usury.)
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    Offline St Ignatius

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    Re: Have you ever heard a sermon against usury?
    « Reply #12 on: October 17, 2017, 11:18:59 AM »
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  • There's another topic(s) which I've never heard addressed from the puplit, which is of equal importance today... It's that of economics and commerce. These are completely intertwined with the practice of "usury" which brings all of civilization under complete control of a few...

    Here are two must reads, by Hillarie Belloc, that should be in every library...
    *Usury
    *Economics For Helen

    Offline Geremia

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    Re: Have you ever heard a sermon against usury?
    « Reply #13 on: October 17, 2017, 11:24:32 AM »
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  • There's another topic(s) which I've never heard addressed from the puplit, which is of equal importance today... It's that of economics and commerce. These are completely intertwined with the practice of "usury" which brings all of civilization under complete control of a few...

    Here are two must reads, by Hillarie Belloc, that should be in every library...
    *Usury
    *Economics For Helen
    Belloc was weak in his condemnation of usury. He thought, like Calvin, that taking usury on productive loans is moral.
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    Offline St Ignatius

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    Re: Have you ever heard a sermon against usury?
    « Reply #14 on: October 17, 2017, 11:42:11 AM »
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  • Belloc was weak in his condemnation of usury. He thought, like Calvin, that taking usury on productive loans is moral.
    A "productive loan" isn't "usury." The sermon that you posted, listen carefully starting at mark 7:00, productive loan is mentioned, but unfortunately, no further explanation is given...

     

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