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Author Topic: Globe Earth DROP Challenge! :)  (Read 2820 times)

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Online Miser Peccator

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Re: Globe Earth DROP Challenge! :)
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2022, 01:45:24 PM »
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  • Exactly.

    There SHOULD be some kind of visible curve, when you have this much land/skyline photographed at once. Thanks to modern skyscrapers and dense cities (creating "skylines") we can have photos like the one above. And according to THEIR OWN FIGURES about the supposed diameter of the earth, with gravity, etc. all taken into account, there should be X drop for every X miles. So if you take a wide enough image (like the one above), you SHOULD see some curve, some drop-off, the buildings not being completely parallel to each other, etc.

    But nothing! All the evidence JUST HAPPENS TO BE exactly the same as if the earth were completely flat under a dome firmament. Imagine that!

    Well I say: maybe, just maybe the earth IS flat and THAT is why all the evidence seems to point that direction. I let the evidence lead me to the correct conclusion -- not the other way around (an emotional need/bias making me NEED a given conclusion, and trying to twist/distort evidence that sort of supports that conclusion)

    (Obviously they can't just say the earth is much bigger in diameter -- that wouldn't work for many reasons.)

    Ah yes, I should be saying the buildings are parallel instead of congruent.   :)


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Globe Earth DROP Challenge! :)
    « Reply #16 on: August 04, 2022, 08:21:55 PM »
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  • Miser, you keep posting the leaning tower of Pisa, etc. but that's not what you would see.  3 foot drop over a matter of yards will cause a much more dramatic angle than if you had the same drop spread out over some miles.  And drop isn't the key here, since it's hard to know the elevation of the ground at the base of the buildings.  Would you notice an 8 inch "drop" that took place across a mile or a few feet over several miles?

    Nevertheless, if someone could do the math and analyze the pictures, if the divergence expected at the higher points of the buildings would be measurably greater than at the lower points, that would be some solid evidence against globe earth.  I have not seen anyone do the math yet, and it's definitely worth doing.


    Offline St Giles

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    Re: Globe Earth DROP Challenge! :)
    « Reply #17 on: August 04, 2022, 09:44:44 PM »
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  • Here's a city skyline I tried to draw to scale just before the 10 mile mark. The tallest building is around 1500ft tall. I had to blow up the image 400% to draw 1 pixel wide buildings.

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    Online Miser Peccator

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    Re: Globe Earth DROP Challenge! :)
    « Reply #18 on: August 06, 2022, 02:37:03 AM »
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  • Wildly exaggerated and not-at-all carefully measured image, but we should be seeing something like this, right?

    This is a good drawing actually.

    It would be great if you could show how a 23 Foot tall ship is hidden from view after 6 miles on the left and how a 66 Foot tall ship is hidden from view after 10 miles on the right.  Both ships are hidden from view due to the calculations in the DROP chart.


    Then if you could apply the same principle to a 6 mile skyline.  Do the buildings on the sides of the skyline get shorter due to the 24 foot DROP?  Do they start to lean away?

    And a 10 mile skyline with a 66 Foot DROP.  What do the buildings on the sides look like?  Are they shorter?    Do they lean away from the center?


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Globe Earth DROP Challenge! :)
    « Reply #19 on: August 06, 2022, 09:47:33 AM »
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  • Then if you could apply the same principle to a 6 mile skyline.  Do the buildings on the sides of the skyline get shorter due to the 24 foot DROP?  Do they start to lean away?

    And a 10 mile skyline with a 66 Foot DROP.  What do the buildings on the sides look like?  Are they shorter?    Do they lean away from the center?

    This is an extremely worthwhile investigation that I would attempt if I had the skills with photo editing software, but posting a picture of the leaning tower of Pisa and then of various city skylines doesn't rise to the level of evidence.

    If we're on a globe, there's no question that buildings that are miles apart should lean away from each other.  What needs to happen is to do the math to determine how much they should lean and then, if it's significant enough where it should be detectible on a photograph at these scales, study the photos to determine whether or not it's present.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Globe Earth DROP Challenge! :)
    « Reply #20 on: August 06, 2022, 10:00:24 AM »
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  • Math would look something like this.  I don't see the formula in this one from the line we'd be interested in.



    I think this could be simplified though.  If you simply change the "R" value to include the height of the buildings, it would just be a question of ascertaining the length of the third side of a triangle.  Problem would be to establish "theta" based on the distances between the buildings.  But my math skills are a bit rusty and I'd need some time to work this one out.  I think you'd go backwards.  So we'd have the R value (assuming the alleged radius of the earth), then we'd have the length of the third side of the triangle based upon the distance between the base of the buildings.  From there we could calculate the "theta" angle, and then add the height of the building to R, then based on the previously-established "theta" would calculate the new length of the third side of the triangle.  If I have a bit of time, I'll try to work out the formula.  In order to detect this on a photograph, we would probably need a difference of at least several feet, if not yards.  Tall buildings are designed to sway a bit in the wind, etc.  So we'd need a significant difference where it should certainly show up on a photograph.  "theta" will end up being a VERY small number over the course of just 5-10 miles.  It would also be necessary to take into account possible differences in the elevations between the two buildings.  Depending upon the land feature, for instance, one might have a foundation that's 25-50 feet above that of the others, perhaps more, if it's build on a hill or something.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Globe Earth DROP Challenge! :)
    « Reply #21 on: August 06, 2022, 10:33:41 AM »
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  • So I can start here real quick.  People can check my math in case I made some error.

    We are told that the radius the earth is approximately 6,378km at the equator and 6,357km at the poles (due to their claim that the earth is an oblate spheroid).

    But km is not granular enough, so let's convert these down to meters (we'll probably never get accuracy to feet).

    6,378km =6,378,000 meters (poles)
    6,357km =6,357,000 meters (equator)

    Let's say we're looking at Las Vegas.  It's neither at the poles nor at the equator, so let's just for now take the average between these two, which would be:

    6,367,500 meters.

    So we can use that for our radius of the earth.

    But Las Vegas has an average elevation of about 2,030 feet or about 619 meters. So we'll add that to the previous radius and get ...

    6,368,119 meters as our R value.

    So we have 2 sides of our triangle at 6,368,119 meters.

    We would determine the 3rd side of our initial triangle by getting the distance between the bases of two buildings (converted into meters).

    Now having all 3 sides of a triangle, we can determine the angle "theta".

    Now that we have the angle measurement, we would add the height of the buildings (or part of the building being used for our measurement) to the R value above.

    So we would have new value for the two longer sides of the triangle, and we still have the "theta" angle measurement.

    We could then calculate the new length of the third side of the triangle.

    We would take the difference between this new length of the 3rd side and the previous length of the 3rd side to see if it would be a noticeable or measurable difference.

    Then if it should be noticeable or measurable (let's say there's a 20-yard difference), we can then analyze the cityscape photograph.

    I have to go get some stuff done, but maybe someone wants to pick it up from there.

    But my hunch or gut feeling based on this scale is that the difference will be too small to be able to measure based on the photograph of a cityscape.

    Otherwise, I suspect that some flat earthers would have already taken this approach.

    That one group in Brazil (of the "Convex Earth" video) did these measurements using precision GPS equipment accurate to within a couple centimeters, but I haven't seen their actual numbers ... and I really a suspect that we'd end up needing to have accuracy to a meter or two to see the difference.

    Offline Emile

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    Re: Globe Earth DROP Challenge! :)
    « Reply #22 on: August 06, 2022, 10:39:04 AM »
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  • From an earlier post:
    Diameter of Earth = 7926 miles (41,849,280 feet)
    Circuмference of Earth 24,900 miles (131,472,000 feet)
    1 degree on the circuмference = 69.17 miles (365,204 feet)

    I decided to use the height of WTC 1, 1368 feet.
    At that altitude 1 degree would equal 69.17178 miles (365,227 feet) In other words, at 69 miles apart, two buildings should show 1 degree of tilt when compared to each other. Or put another way, at 69 miles apart, having two buildings, both 1368 feet tall, the top of the buildings should be 23 feet further apart than the bases.

    At 1 arc minute (1 degree/60),  or 1.153 miles (6086.67 feet) the 1368 foot buildings should be out by .4538 feet (5.4456 inches).





    Now these distances are arc lengths not straight line measurements but it's in the ballpark.
    Patience is a conquering virtue. The learned say that, if it not desert you, It vanquishes what force can never reach; Why answer back at every angry speech? No, learn forbearance or, I'll tell you what, You will be taught it, whether you will or not.
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    Online Miser Peccator

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    Re: Globe Earth DROP Challenge! :)
    « Reply #23 on: August 06, 2022, 01:38:48 PM »
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  • From an earlier post:
    Diameter of Earth = 7926 miles (41,849,280 feet)
    Circuмference of Earth 24,900 miles (131,472,000 feet)
    1 degree on the circuмference = 69.17 miles (365,204 feet)

    I decided to use the height of WTC 1, 1368 feet.
    At that altitude 1 degree would equal 69.17178 miles (365,227 feet) In other words, at 69 miles apart, two buildings should show 1 degree of tilt when compared to each other. Or put another way, at 69 miles apart, having two buildings, both 1368 feet tall, the top of the buildings should be 23 feet further apart than the bases.

    At 1 arc minute (1 degree/60),  or 1.153 miles (6086.67 feet) the 1368 foot buildings should be out by .4538 feet (5.4456 inches).





    Now these distances are arc lengths not straight line measurements but it's in the ballpark.


    That's interesting. 

    According to the DROP chart at 70 miles there should be a DROP of 3267 feet.  ?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Globe Earth DROP Challenge! :)
    « Reply #24 on: August 06, 2022, 03:24:50 PM »
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  • From an earlier post:
    Diameter of Earth = 7926 miles (41,849,280 feet)
    Circuмference of Earth 24,900 miles (131,472,000 feet)
    1 degree on the circuмference = 69.17 miles (365,204 feet)

    I decided to use the height of WTC 1, 1368 feet.
    At that altitude 1 degree would equal 69.17178 miles (365,227 feet) In other words, at 69 miles apart, two buildings should show 1 degree of tilt when compared to each other. Or put another way, at 69 miles apart, having two buildings, both 1368 feet tall, the top of the buildings should be 23 feet further apart than the bases.

    At 1 arc minute (1 degree/60),  or 1.153 miles (6086.67 feet) the 1368 foot buildings should be out by .4538 feet (5.4456 inches).

    Now these distances are arc lengths not straight line measurements but it's in the ballpark.

    OK, so that was my suspicion, about half a foot at 1 mile, so maybe, what?, 4 feet, at 10 miles?  I think that the Brazilian group chose two buildings about 25 miles apart ... which would give you about 10 feet (although I think the buildings were shorter) and used some GPS equipment they said was accurate to within a couple of centimeters.  If you could find a city-scape photo that would be about 10 miles wide, you'd be looking for about 3-4 feet divergence, which at that scale might be a few pixels wide, depending on the resolution, and probably only a true expert in photographic analysis would be able to detect that.  And even if you did find the 3-4 feet, the buildings are typically designed to sway a little bit in the wind.  I just don't think that one could make a conclusive argument based on photographs.  It would have to be something like the GPS experiment.

    Online Miser Peccator

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    Re: Globe Earth DROP Challenge! :)
    « Reply #25 on: August 06, 2022, 03:37:53 PM »
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  • OK, so that was my suspicion, about half a foot at 1 mile, so maybe, what?, 4 feet, at 10 miles?  I think that the Brazilian group chose two buildings about 25 miles apart ... which would give you about 10 feet (although I think the buildings were shorter) and used some GPS equipment they said was accurate to within a couple of centimeters.  If you could find a city-scape photo that would be about 10 miles wide, you'd be looking for about 3-4 feet divergence, which at that scale might be a few pixels wide, depending on the resolution, and probably only a true expert in photographic analysis would be able to detect that.  And even if you did find the 3-4 feet, the buildings are typically designed to sway a little bit in the wind.  I just don't think that one could make a conclusive argument based on photographs.  It would have to be something like the GPS experiment.
    Instead of moving to a different model of measurement I'd rather evaluate the DROP chart as given.

    The question I have is:
    Does DROP cause lean?  If so at what rate?


    So at 10 miles there is a 66 foot DROP and you are saying that would only cause a four foot difference due to lean?

    At 20 miles there is a 266 foot DROP and at 30 miles there is a 600 foot DROP but your calculation is that at 25 miles there would only be 10 feet of difference due to lean?









    Offline St Giles

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    Re: Globe Earth DROP Challenge! :)
    « Reply #26 on: August 06, 2022, 03:50:30 PM »
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  • The amount of lean is also based on building height. There is no simple rule like 8in per mile, there is another variable. The best you can do it say X number of miles per 1 degree change in angle. After that more math is needed to find the feet of lean based on the distance bewteen 2 buildings, and the height at which you want to know the lean.

    As far as photographs go, this proof for flat or globe earth might as well be a non starter based on the scale of things.

    If Antarctica is so closely guarded, I think the next best proof within reach may be sending an amature rocket into space with a video camera on it. It wouldn't be very cheap, but with technology what it is today, it should be reasonably easy and not overly expensive.
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    Online Miser Peccator

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    Re: Globe Earth DROP Challenge! :)
    « Reply #27 on: August 06, 2022, 03:56:43 PM »
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  • Instead of moving to a different model of measurement I'd rather evaluate the DROP chart as given.

    The question I have is:
    Does DROP cause lean?  If so at what rate?


    So at 10 miles there is a 66 foot DROP and you are saying that would only cause a four foot difference due to lean?

    At 20 miles there is a 266 foot DROP and at 30 miles there is a 600 foot DROP but your calculation is that at 25 miles there would only be 10 feet of difference due to lean?

    The Tower of Pisa has a 3 foot DROP and the top of the building leans 15 feet.

    Taller buildings would have a greater lean wouldn't they?

    Offline Emile

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    Re: Globe Earth DROP Challenge! :)
    « Reply #28 on: August 06, 2022, 03:59:19 PM »
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  • That's interesting. 

    According to the DROP chart at 70 miles there should be a DROP of 3267 feet.  ?
    Instead of moving to a different model of measurement I'd rather evaluate the DROP chart as given.

    The question I have is:
    Does DROP cause lean?  If so at what rate?


    So at 10 miles there is a 66 foot DROP and you are saying that would only cause a four foot difference due to lean?

    At 20 miles there is a 266 foot DROP and at 30 miles there is a 600 foot DROP but your calculation is that at 25 miles there would only be 10 feet of difference due to lean?








    The diagrams illustrate the difference. From what I could find, the tower of Pisa currently tilts near 4 degrees (used to be about 5.5 until stabilization work was done, not sure what year the picture posted earlier is from)

    If we take the image of the compass, it's easier to see what 4 degrees looks like. I think it's also easier to use the compass to see what expected tilt buildings should have, if indeed Earth is spherical, where with the drop chart it is far more difficult to demonstrate.




    A difficulty with trying to determine the overall shape of Earth on land is that the land is not obviously flat or spherical. What I mean is that when I go outside and walk around or go for a drive across country, I see flat areas, but also hills, valleys, mountains, canyons, etc. I guess I'd say that land is a little too relative to give me a good sense of the overall shape.

    Now I actually am intrigued by the drop chart when looking over a large body of water and am giving thought to that, trying to consider all the factors.







    Patience is a conquering virtue. The learned say that, if it not desert you, It vanquishes what force can never reach; Why answer back at every angry speech? No, learn forbearance or, I'll tell you what, You will be taught it, whether you will or not.
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    Online Miser Peccator

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    Re: Globe Earth DROP Challenge! :)
    « Reply #29 on: August 06, 2022, 04:08:25 PM »
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  • The diagrams illustrate the difference. From what I could find, the tower of Pisa currently tilts near 4 degrees (used to be about 5.5 until stabilization work was done, not sure what year the picture posted earlier is from)

    If we take the image of the compass, it's easier to see what 4 degrees looks like. I think it's also easier to use the compass to see what expected tilt buildings should have, if indeed Earth is spherical, where with the drop chart it is far more difficult to demonstrate.




    A difficulty with trying to determine the overall shape of Earth on land is that the land is not obviously flat or spherical. What I mean is that when I go outside and walk around or go for a drive across country, I see flat areas, but also hills, valleys, mountains, canyons, etc. I guess I'd say that land is a little too relative to give me a good sense of the overall shape.

    Now I actually am intrigued by the drop chart when looking over a large body of water and am giving thought to that, trying to consider all the factors.





    Yes, I understand the compass is useful for making sense but I'd rather focus on the DROP chart because that is what doesn't make sense.

    A pilot pointed out how crazy the DROP chart was when he considered a 100 mile flight would mean a 6669 foot DROP.  This made no sense because planes level out at cruising altitude and adjusting for that amount of DROP would cause a serious nose down adjustment.  If the plane didn't adjust it would fly straight off the globe into space.

    But I don't want to veer off into flight dynamics. :)

    As for the various altitudes, It shouldn't matter really because buildings are all built to be level with water even if they are on the side of a hill or mountain.


    But to keep things simple I am focusing mainly on coastal skylines and flat terrain as you see in the photos I posted.