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Author Topic: ‘Fr.’ Zuhlsdorf opines that lying isn’t always wrong  (Read 1339 times)

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Offline Mark 79

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‘Fr.’ Zuhlsdorf opines that lying isn’t always wrong
« on: September 15, 2021, 11:21:59 PM »
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    • https://twitter.com/NovusOrdoWatch/status/1438260822829060098

    ‘Fr.’ Zuhlsdorf opines that lying isn’t always wrong: https://wdtprs.com/2021/09/ask-father-is-it-sinful-to-make-or-use-fake-papers-vaccine-passports-or-false-docuмents/ 

    Reality check: “no lie... is ever justified ...a lie is intrinsically evil, and the end does not justify the means” - from “Moral Theology”, n. 2395 - https://gutenberg.org/cache/epub/35354/pg35354.html 
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    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: ‘Fr.’ Zuhlsdorf opines that lying isn’t always wrong
    « Reply #1 on: September 16, 2021, 02:39:03 AM »
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    • Quote from: Mark 79 on September 15, 2021, 11:21:59 PM

    https://twitter.com/NovusOrdoWatch/status/1438260822829060098

    ‘Fr.’ Zuhlsdorf opines that lying isn’t always wrong: https://wdtprs.com/2021/09/ask-father-is-it-sinful-to-make-or-use-fake-papers-vaccine-passports-or-false-docuмents/

    Reality check: “no lie... is ever justified ...a lie is intrinsically evil, and the end does not justify the means” - from “Moral Theology”, n. 2395 - https://gutenberg.org/cache/epub/35354/pg35354.html
    I, too, have a real issue with Fr Z on this.  Among other things, when you lie, you have set yourself up as the arbiter of what other people are going to believe as truth or not, that you are going to guide their reality and make it into something other than what it is.
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    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: ‘Fr.’ Zuhlsdorf opines that lying isn’t always wrong
    « Reply #2 on: September 16, 2021, 03:16:00 AM »
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    • Novus Ordo watch still on Twitter which is extremely modernist.  Why?  
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    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: ‘Fr.’ Zuhlsdorf opines that lying isn’t always wrong
    « Reply #3 on: September 16, 2021, 03:26:08 AM »
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    • Spellman was living a lie...
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    Offline Puzzle

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    Re: ‘Fr.’ Zuhlsdorf opines that lying isn’t always wrong
    « Reply #4 on: September 16, 2021, 08:35:51 AM »
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    • Quote from: Mark 79 on September 15, 2021, 11:21:59 PM

    https://twitter.com/NovusOrdoWatch/status/1438260822829060098

    ‘Fr.’ Zuhlsdorf opines that lying isn’t always wrong: https://wdtprs.com/2021/09/ask-father-is-it-sinful-to-make-or-use-fake-papers-vaccine-passports-or-false-docuмents/

    Reality check: “no lie... is ever justified ...a lie is intrinsically evil, and the end does not justify the means” - from “Moral Theology”, n. 2395 - https://gutenberg.org/cache/epub/35354/pg35354.html
    It was explained to me as "mental reservation". 

    For example:
    - you take a child with a broken arm to the ER
    - ER asks is the child is vaccinated
    - if the child is, say so and no problem
    - if the child isn't, no matter the reason, the parent will be grilled, treated as a criminal, and, possibly have their child taken away.  In this instance, I was told, it would be o.k. to say the child had been vaccinated.

    I was  also taught that a lie must involve deceit.
    For instance, telling someone the trees are purple when they know the trees aren't purple, is not a lie because no deceit is involved.
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    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: ‘Fr.’ Zuhlsdorf opines that lying isn’t always wrong
    « Reply #5 on: September 16, 2021, 08:49:16 AM »
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    • Quote from: Viva Cristo Rey on September 16, 2021, 03:16:00 AM
    Novus Ordo watch still on Twitter which is extremely modernist.  Why? 
    I think most people stay on Twitter until they are kicked off to reach the largest audience possible or use twitter as a device (if  there is a large audience) to direct their traffic elsewhere.
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    Offline Prayerful

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    Re: ‘Fr.’ Zuhlsdorf opines that lying isn’t always wrong
    « Reply #6 on: September 16, 2021, 02:55:42 PM »
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    • Fr Z was ordained by JP2 who was a bishop with old orders, so no need for the inverted commas. I think Fr is being practical. I'm not sure about that example he gives, but a degree of mental reservation for the sake of something truly important hardly seems a point to suffer martyrdom. 
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    Offline Matto

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    Re: ‘Fr.’ Zuhlsdorf opines that lying isn’t always wrong
    « Reply #7 on: September 16, 2021, 06:29:06 PM »
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    • "Yes, officer, I have twenty Jєωs in my basement."
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    Offline Miseremini

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    Re: ‘Fr.’ Zuhlsdorf opines that lying isn’t always wrong
    « Reply #8 on: September 16, 2021, 07:06:19 PM »
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    • So all the priests who disguised themselves during the French revolution or the Cristeros' wars, they were all liars?  Father Miguel Pro comes to mind.

    How many here would accept a birth certificate of someone who was adopted?
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    Offline Marion

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    Re: ‘Fr.’ Zuhlsdorf opines that lying isn’t always wrong
    « Reply #9 on: September 16, 2021, 07:18:22 PM »
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    • Quote from: Matto on September 16, 2021, 06:29:06 PM
    "Yes, officer, I have twenty Jєωs in my basement."

    I like the example des Herrn Zuhlsdorf. It presupposes that German officers are nice, and say "thank you Sir, good night", if you answer, "sorry, no Jєωs today in my basement".

     :fryingpan:
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    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: ‘Fr.’ Zuhlsdorf opines that lying isn’t always wrong
    « Reply #10 on: September 16, 2021, 07:20:29 PM »
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    • The first thing which came to my mind when I read the thread title was, “Didn’t Pope Pius XII forge (or supply Jєωs with) fake birth certificates?

    If so, was it human weakness (sin), or permitted for some reason?
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    Offline Marion

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    Re: ‘Fr.’ Zuhlsdorf opines that lying isn’t always wrong
    « Reply #11 on: September 16, 2021, 07:23:02 PM »
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    • Wasn't the story of the birth certificates told by a Jєω?
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    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: ‘Fr.’ Zuhlsdorf opines that lying isn’t always wrong
    « Reply #12 on: September 16, 2021, 07:34:23 PM »
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    • Or was it baptisms, not birth certificates?

    Or both?

    Anyway, at least as regards the baptizing of Jєωιѕн children, it seems there was a politically incorrect directive that such children were expected to be raised Catholic:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/09/world/saving-Jєωιѕн-children-but-at-what-cost.html
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    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: ‘Fr.’ Zuhlsdorf opines that lying isn’t always wrong
    « Reply #13 on: September 16, 2021, 11:31:39 PM »
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    • The circuмstance of a lie may mitigate the lie's seriousness.

    I have not personally researched or confirmed the origin of "mental reservation," but I vaguely recall reading that the Jesuits started that "lying is OK" rubbish.

    Does anyone have dispositive information on that?

    As far as "having Jєωs in the basement"…

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    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: ‘Fr.’ Zuhlsdorf opines that lying isn’t always wrong
    « Reply #14 on: September 16, 2021, 11:36:10 PM »
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    • Quote from: Prayerful on September 16, 2021, 02:55:42 PM
    Fr Z was ordained by JP2 who was a bishop with old orders, so no need for the inverted commas. I think Fr is being practical. I'm not sure about that example he gives, but a degree of mental reservation for the sake of something truly important hardly seems a point to suffer martyrdom.

    "Fr." Zuhlsdorf was "ordained" in 1991, hence in the dubious Novus Ordo rite.
    It shows in his snarky unpriestly demeanor.
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