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Author Topic: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists  (Read 29495 times)

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Offline cassini

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Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
« Reply #225 on: August 31, 2021, 08:12:49 AM »
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  • How sad that some Catholics have less Faith in the Bible than fundamentalist protestants.

    There are lots of fundie prots who earnestly believe in a young earth, and seek out alternate, Bible-friendly explanations to all the ACTUAL EVIDENCE science has turned up.

    And they've done very well, too!

    And that goes for a defense of geocentrism too. First a quote from 1873, 38 years after Pope Pius VII allowed heliocentric books to be read as correct.

    ‘Which [universe] is right? It would be very simple to me which is right, if it were only a question for human import. But the wise and truthful God has expressed Himself on this matter in the Bible. The entire Holy Scriptures settles the question that the Earth is the principal body of the universe, and it stands fixed, and that the Sun and the Moon only serve to light it. -- Lutheran Teachers’ Seminary, St Louis, Astronomische Uterredung, 1873.

    The above quote, from a Lutheran seminary of all places, shows more faith in the true interpretation of the Sacred Scriptures concerning its revelation of a geocentric world in 1873 than did Catholic churchmen of the Holy Office of that time. To our knowledge there is no record of any proper Catholic Church defence of a geocentric reading of the Bible after 1835.

    Now witness the debate in 1820 between the geocentrist Fr Anfossi anf Fr Olivieri the heliocentrist who wanted to get heliocentrism into the womb of the Church.

    Anfossi: ‘Will Canon Settele not show toward the [geocentric] assertions of Scripture the respect which a heretic [the Protestant Tycho de Brahe] had for them.’ 
    Olivieri: ‘Allow us to ask him in turn: in astronomy Protestants have abandoned Tycho, despite his extremely great merit, and they believe his system is a monstrous absurdity; instead they have turned to follow Copernicus, Kepler, and Galileo (all great Catholic men) [Kepler was not a Catholic, he was a Protestant], who are believed to hold the truth, the physical evidence, and the increasingly stronger observational confirmations; why then do you want to oblige a Catholic to follow a heretic who has been abandoned by his fellow heretics.’ 

    Using the quote above from the Luthern seminary as an example, it was Protestant who championed the geocentrism of Scripture long before any Catholic became involved. Given the spurious arguments offered by Olivieri in support of heliocentrism and the removal of the bans against heliocentrism, it is worth noting he also tried to have his way by taunting Anfossi throughout his report, just as YECs are taunted on CIF by others. Here are more examples of the ridicule Fr Olivieri used against Fr Anfossi: ‘This proposition seems to me to be infected with intolerable absurdity.’ ‘The fact is that you say nothing with any perspicacity or with distinct clarity.’ ‘The Rev. Father must be joking when…’ ‘He also dares to say..’ ‘Why, Most Rev. Father, instead of talking off the top of your head…’ ‘I find his internal incoherence stupefying.’ ‘Any Catholic should be ashamed for him of what he says.’ ‘He’s been seduced by unknown incompetent persons.’ 

    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
    « Reply #226 on: August 31, 2021, 05:55:25 PM »
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  • But we're talking about 6,000 +/- years vs. the absurd claim that human beings have been around for 200,000 years.  Depending on historical knowledge, the dates could vary plus or minus by a few hundred years ... not a few hundred thousand.
    6000 years means Adam was created c 4000 BC. As I said, the Eastern tradition is c 5500 BC.

    So are you condemning the Eastern tradition, or does "plus or minus a few hundred years" include 1500 years? How about 5000? How much is too much?

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    I went to both a Jesuit High School and a Jesuit University, and I have an intimate knowledge of Modernism.
    You apparently didn't learn much from them.

    There's other stuff out there about the other radio dating methods that's just as damning.
    The "other stuff out there" usually boils down to two claims about radiometric dating - that decay rates vary, and that "contamination" affects the results.

    Decay rates are not affected in any significant way by extreme pressure or temperature. There's a reason for that. Electrons "shield" the atomic nucleus from external conditions, so decay depends almost entirely on the conditions in the nucleus. That means decay rate depends almost entirely on the element. What little variation might exist is not enough to change dates of billions of years into thousands of years.

    "Contamination" is also not a concern. It can usually be recognized without testing. Contamination would also usually result in the measured age being younger than the actual age, so it doesn't help the YEC arguments. (That is, if an item is dated to X years ago, a claim that it was "contaminated" would usually mean its actual age would have to be greater than X.)

    How sad that some Catholics have less Faith in the Bible than fundamentalist protestants.

    There are lots of fundie prots who earnestly believe in a young earth, and seek out alternate, Bible-friendly explanations to all the ACTUAL EVIDENCE science has turned up.
    YEC is not faith in the Bible per se, but faith in a particular interpretation.

    Jehovahs Witnesses believe its wrong to take blood during surgery, and they will die for it. One could admire their faith.

    That doesn't mean their particular interpretation of the Bible is correct.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
    « Reply #228 on: September 01, 2021, 12:10:16 PM »
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  • As far as the dating, there's an intersection between the Bible going forward in time and historical sources going backward in time.  So, for instance, the Genesis account in terms of clear dating terminates at Abraham.  So it depends on when historical sources place Abraham and the degree of certainty we have about those historical dates.  There are probably other indications in the Bible of chronology.  But we're talking about 6,000 +/- years vs. the absurd claim that human beings have been around for 200,000 years.  Depending on historical knowledge, the dates could vary plus or minus by a few hundred years ... not a few hundred thousand.

    I went to both a Jesuit High School and a Jesuit University, and I have an intimate knowledge of Modernism.  And you're a Modernist.
    Stan’s just a disciple of a modernist heretical priest.
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Dankward

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    Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
    « Reply #229 on: September 01, 2021, 12:31:36 PM »
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  • Parasites, natural disasters and all that are punishments for sin. If we stopped sinning, those would be decreased dramaticly.
    Also the velocerapter is only about 2 feet tall. Unlike what was pictured in Jurassic Park

    You're right about the size, velociraptors are not that tall (as opposed to Deinonychus, which the films' raptors are based on), but they were a huge threat to animals lower in the food chain still. As you can see in a lot of animals, they're designed to kill as efficiently as possible, that's why I was saying that they're bascially killing machines.
    I really don't understand why the bible is so silent on all those things, when new animals were created (parasites etc.), when the lifespan of humans was reduced, and so forth. It doesn't really like teaching about "mundane" scientific details, does it?



    Dankwark, can you not see that even the language you are using here is tantamount to fantasy.
    This being was apparently the size of a turkey, and even if it were huge, it was never a “killing” “machine”. Where are you getting your information? fantasy script writers? Sharks exist but they are not killing machines, tigers are not killing machines either. Animals kill to feed themselves (so do we).
    The first ever death was when the Lord God made for Adam and his wife, garments of skins, and clothed them. (Gen 3:21), this a direct consequence of their loss of innocence through sin. They felt naked, and so He clothed them.

    Nadir, please see my response to Romulus above. My phrase "killing machines" might be a bit graphic, but it gets the meaning across I think. There are tons of carnivorous animals that are built specially for efficient killing. The crocodiles, which are one of the still living reptiles that are closely related to dinosaurs, are a good example for this. But also with birds, fish, mammals, there are a lot of examples which exist right in front of your eyes. Sharks, by the way, kill not only to feed themselves. For example dolphins and orcas are known for killing young conspecifics of theirs just for fun. Nature is more brutal than you might think, you should really get away from feel-good nature docuмentaries and inform yourself.
    This was all to show the difficulty I'm having with aligning a perfect creation, which must've contained none of these terrible traits of fallen creation, with nature as we see it today.

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    This is exactly the evolutionists do, to make you confused (as you say yourself, in a di-lemma, i.e., of two minds). It was not communism that the Chinese taught to introduce their reign of terror,* which continues today worldwide (including your land and mine). No, they promoted evolution. A philosophy of no hope. A lie which says everything is evolving, which means in people’s minds, improving, when it is plain as the nose on your face that it is getting worse.
    *maybe someone here can remember the missionary bishop who said this. I have a small book by/about him.

    Dilemma, noun: a situation with two (or more) alternatives to choose from, and where all alternatives are unsatisfactory or undesirable
    - from https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Dilemma

    What I can agree on is that when looking for evidence of "evolution" over known history, all we can see is devolution in men. For example linguists can tell you that languages are getting simpler over time, more unified, "dumber", you could argue.


    Offline Dankward

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    Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
    « Reply #230 on: September 01, 2021, 12:47:23 PM »
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  • Question to you, Stanley N, as advocate of an old universe:

    What do you actually believe? It's at least very hard to reconcile atheist modern science's assertions about the history of the universe with the Catholic faith. I'm currently wondering how and if it's possible at all. Do you believe that after a big bang, formation of matter, galaxies, stars, celestial bodies etc., God made the perfect creation via evolution? Wouldn't that be against the principle of evolution which can only happen by trial and error, or rather, by killing and death? Because if yes, that'd mean once again that evolution and an old unvierse in general and creation by an all-good, all-powerful God are mutually exclusive.

    Offline Dankward

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    Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
    « Reply #231 on: September 01, 2021, 01:16:24 PM »
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  • :laugh1: :laugh1: :laugh1:
    https://www.brighteon.com/e11a9e0b-d754-4c81-89be-4dcdcaf36c34
    I'm not sure if this video really helps your cause (I'm assuming you were trying to make a point about flat Earth?). Because that's one of the problems with FE: You need to believe that just about everything is fake. Of course the governments lie, NASA lies, Russia lies, etc. But Aristotle? And all the other globe Earth advocates? All the experiments? All the video footage?

    I scrubbed through the video a bit, and they got to one of SpaceX's Starship rocket launches at about 6mins into the video. It's hilarious to hear them argue that this, too, is of course CGI, just as anything that ever went further than a few miles above the ground, which is absolutely ridiculous. These modern rocket launches are watched and observed by millions of people on Earth, and by thousands on-site every time, you can't just fake stuff like this. Then he goes on about how a side shot of a rocket with a few kilometers altitude is impossible - I thought FE's were experts at perspective, weren't they? Then he's obviously missing the whole concept of rocket thrusters, and everything he can't explain is simply fake.

    And space shuttles are completely fake as well? Oh dear... these people live in a parallel universe. The only things he's probably right about is the SS Challenger disaster, which had some strange things going on for sure, it was probably staged and the astronauts weren't really onboard, and he knows about the Georgia Guide Stones. Not too bad.

    The rant could go on but... :facepalm: it's off-topic here anyway, sorry.

    Offline Dankward

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    Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
    « Reply #232 on: September 01, 2021, 02:15:49 PM »
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  • Correction, it was actually Eratosthenes who measured Earths circuмference this way:



    Offline Marion

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    Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
    « Reply #233 on: September 01, 2021, 02:44:34 PM »
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  • Correction, it was actually Eratosthenes who measured Earths circuмference this way:



    Yes, and Carl Friedrich Gauß perfected the method, to survey Prussia even without shadows, confirming curvature of the surface of Prussia.
    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
    « Reply #234 on: September 01, 2021, 03:13:31 PM »
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  • I'm not sure if this video really helps your cause (I'm assuming you were trying to make a point about flat Earth?). Because that's one of the problems with FE: You need to believe that just about everything is fake. Of course the governments lie, NASA lies, Russia lies, etc. But Aristotle? And all the other globe Earth advocates? All the experiments? All the video footage?

    I scrubbed through the video a bit, and they got to one of SpaceX's Starship rocket launches at about 6mins into the video. It's hilarious to hear them argue that this, too, is of course CGI, just as anything that ever went further than a few miles above the ground, which is absolutely ridiculous. These modern rocket launches are watched and observed by millions of people on Earth, and by thousands on-site every time, you can't just fake stuff like this. Then he goes on about how a side shot of a rocket with a few kilometers altitude is impossible - I thought FE's were experts at perspective, weren't they? Then he's obviously missing the whole concept of rocket thrusters, and everything he can't explain is simply fake.

    And space shuttles are completely fake as well? Oh dear... these people live in a parallel universe. The only things he's probably right about is the SS Challenger disaster, which had some strange things going on for sure, it was probably staged and the astronauts weren't really onboard, and he knows about the Georgia Guide Stones. Not too bad.

    The rant could go on but... :facepalm: it's off-topic here anyway, sorry.

    There's probably about 30 minutes of obviously fake footage there ... in addition to the Challenger problem.  And the U.S. moonlanding was obviously faked as well.  Mars rovers they pretended were on Mars were actually in Greenland and Devon Island.  It's non-stop fakery from NASA.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
    « Reply #235 on: September 01, 2021, 03:55:24 PM »
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  • Correction, it was actually Eratosthenes who measured Earths circuмference this way:


    In the flat earth model, the sun is much closer than the purported 93 million miles and much smaller than alleged, and so the rays of the sun would not be parallel.


    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
    « Reply #236 on: September 01, 2021, 04:34:30 PM »
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  • It seems to me that the novelty of “flat Earth” was invented to muddy the waters and to aid in ridicule the geocentric model. 

    Flat Earthers please give a cogent explanation for the difference in appearance of the moon in the Southern and Northern Hemispheres?

    http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/about-us/46-our-solar-system/the-moon/observing-the-moon/135-does-the-moon-look-different-in-the-northern-and-southern-hemispheres-beginner


    https://www.gettyimages.dk/detail/photo/the-moon-as-seen-from-the-southern-hemisphere-royalty-free-image/168839237

     

    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
    « Reply #237 on: September 01, 2021, 06:15:19 PM »
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  • It seems to me that the novelty of “flat Earth” was invented to muddy the waters and to aid in ridicule the geocentric model.

    Flat Earthers please give a cogent explanation for the difference in appearance of the moon in the Southern and Northern Hemispheres?

    You're not very well acquainted with the flat earth model.  Even most anti-flat-earthers concede that this is a non-issue.  Those in the north look at it from the opposite angle as those from the south.  There are some discussions regarding the moon's phases but there are solid explanations for those as well.

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
    « Reply #238 on: September 01, 2021, 06:47:06 PM »
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    Dankward:
    As you can see in a lot of animals, they're designed to kill as efficiently as possible, that's why I was saying that they're bascially killing machines.

    I really don't understand why the bible is so silent on all those things, when new animals were created (parasites etc.), when the lifespan of humans was reduced, and so forth. It doesn't really like teaching about "mundane" scientific details, does it?
    Who designed the animals? I sincerely hope you believe it was Almighty God who designed them. 
    If you do believe that God is the Designer, then it goes against the Faith to say they were designed to kill as efficiently as possible. Have you read the first chapter of Genesis? You certainly need to read it again. Every thing He created “was good”. To say he created a killing machine is plainly false. 

    The answer to your question has been dealt with in previous posts of this thread.


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    My phrase "killing machines" might be a bit graphic, but it gets the meaning across I think. There are tons of carnivorous animals that are built specially for efficient killing. The crocodiles, which are one of the still living reptiles that are closely related to dinosaurs, are a good example for this. But also with birds, fish, mammals, there are a lot of examples which exist right in front of your eyes. Sharks, by the way, kill not only to feed themselves. For example dolphins and orcas are known for killing young conspecifics of theirs just for fun. 


    Your phrase killing machine is not so much graphic as it is imaginative, emotional. That animals kill for fun is pure fantasy. 


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    Nature is more brutal than you might think, you should really get away from feel-good nature docuмentaries and inform yourself.
    This was all to show the difficulty I'm having with aligning a perfect creation, which must've contained none of these terrible traits of fallen creation, with nature as we see it today.
    My experience of nature is from real life, and not from nature docuмentaries. I know a bit about crocs, though my experience is not extensive. But that’s another story.  it matters not whether they are related to dinosaurs. They kill to eat, or maybe in competition with a rival for female favours. But they, and no other animal can be called a killing machine. Use of such language is highly emotive and indicates that one has a warped image of Creation.

    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    +RIP 2024

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
    « Reply #239 on: September 01, 2021, 07:44:58 PM »
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  • Dankward, I forgot to say:
    The whole reason for the promotion of evolution is to destroy your trust in a good God, one who created a world that is good. This is why the Chinese taught evolution ahead of communism, and why we have been brainwashed, by the education system. Nobody is untouched by this evil teaching, and here we have an SSPX priest teaching it. Tragic!
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    +RIP 2024