Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists  (Read 39134 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline cassini

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4125
  • Reputation: +3412/-275
  • Gender: Male
Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
« Reply #195 on: August 28, 2021, 03:49:33 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • From shortly after the passage already quoted from St. Augustine:

    Elsewhere in St. Augustine:

    I hope you can see the merit of St. Augustine's writings, at least today, on his feast day in the Western church.
    I'm for an old earth, but I would agree something unique happened about 6-7k years ago, the start of recorded history. That could be the time of Adam and Eve, and any earlier hominids (neanderthal, denisovan) lacked rational souls.

    Are you now trying to say that when he said the movement of the firmament is not known, are you saying Augustine contradicted himself when he wrote:

    ‘It not infrequently happens that something about the Earth, about the sky, about other elements of this world, about the motion and rotation or even the magnitude and distances of the stars, about definite eclipses of the sun and moon and of other such things, may be known with the greatest certainty by reasoning or by experience, even by one who is not a Christian. It is too disgraceful and ruinous, and greatly to be avoided, that he should hear a Christian speaking so idiotically on these matters, and as if in accord with Christian writings, that he might say that he could scarcely keep from laughing when he saw how totally in error they are” (St. Augustine, The Literal Interpretation of Genesis 1:19–20, Ch. 19).

    Now Augustine specifically says here the movement of the stars may be known with the greatest certainty. He says nothing about the movement of the firmament is known. There is a difference.

    But here is another aspect that Augustine warned us about, that the Fr Robinsons and Stanleys would abuse, THE DISTANCE OF THE STARS. This is Big Bang heresy. Fr Robinson uses the distance of the stars, as you probably do Stanley, to age the universe and the Earth.  

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 48414
    • Reputation: +28580/-5349
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
    « Reply #196 on: August 28, 2021, 04:37:42 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I hope you can see the merit of St. Augustine's writings, at least today, on his feast day in the Western church.
    I'm for an old earth, but I would agree something unique happened about 6-7k years ago, the start of recorded history. That could be the time of Adam and Eve, and any earlier hominids (neanderthal, denisovan) lacked rational souls.

    But if someone showed Adam and Eve were earlier, we would need to say we've misunderstood something about the genealogies (to paraphrase St. Robert). What that might be is not my bailiwick.

    Let's say for a moment that science claimed that human beings came into existence 100,000 years ago.  What would your explanation of the Bible stating otherwise be?

    So you reduce what the Bible teaches as the creation of man as "something unique that happened about 6-7k years ago"?  I mean, the Bible explains what happened.


    Offline Stanley N

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1208
    • Reputation: +530/-486
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
    « Reply #197 on: August 28, 2021, 05:45:25 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!2
  • Let's say for a moment that science claimed that human beings came into existence 100,000 years ago.  What would your explanation of the Bible stating otherwise be?
    "...if there were a true demonstration ... then one would have to proceed with great care in explaining the Scriptures that appear contrary, and say rather that we do not understand them than what is demonstrated is false." (St. Robert).

    I gave you an explanation before that seems to me consistent with both the science and the Scriptures. Shouldn't that be enough?

    Now you're asking some hypothetical situation about a contradiction between science and Scripture - between truth and truth. I'm not sure how I can answer that, as it seems an impossible hypothetical.

    Offline cassini

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4125
    • Reputation: +3412/-275
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
    « Reply #198 on: August 29, 2021, 09:22:37 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • From shortly after the passage already quoted from St. Augustine:

    Elsewhere in St. Augustine:

    I hope you can see the merit of St. Augustine's writings, at least today, on his feast day in the Western church.
    I'm for an old earth, but I would agree something unique happened about 6-7k years ago, the start of recorded history. That could be the time of Adam and Eve, and any earlier hominids (neanderthal, denisovan) lacked rational souls.

    Finally, for those of our readers who may have lingering doubts about St. Augustine’s faith in the literal historical truth of Genesis 1-11, we invite you to watch the episode on St. Augustine in the DVD series and to read David Gedney’s masterful article on St. Augustine’s interpretation of Genesis on the Kolbe website.

    Yours in Christ through the Holy Theotokos in union with St. Joseph,

    Hugh Owen


    https://www.kolbecenter.org/st-augustine-rediscovered-a-defense-of-the-literal-interpretation-of-st-augustines-writings-on-the-sacred-history-of-genesis/

    Offline Dankward

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 435
    • Reputation: +238/-265
    • Gender: Male
    • Deo confidimus!
    Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
    « Reply #199 on: August 29, 2021, 12:43:43 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • [...]
    I hope you can see the merit of St. Augustine's writings, at least today, on his feast day in the Western church.
    I'm for an old earth, but I would agree something unique happened about 6-7k years ago, the start of recorded history. That could be the time of Adam and Eve, and any earlier hominids (neanderthal, denisovan) lacked rational souls.

    But if someone showed Adam and Eve were earlier, we would need to say we've misunderstood something about the genealogies (to paraphrase St. Robert). What that might be is not my bailiwick.
    While I too find the evidence pointing towards an old Earth insightful (age of stars/light, age of arctic ice, geology, sediments, fossils, trees, ...), I think it poses a paradox: How could an all-good God let an imperfect universe evolve, wouldn't that mean that He's either not all-good or not all-powerful, as some Atheists say? Because speaking generally, the perfect creation that Scripture tells us about in Genesis would've been totally different from the ecosystems and natural processes we see today, you could say it would've been a completely different creation.


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 48414
    • Reputation: +28580/-5349
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
    « Reply #200 on: August 29, 2021, 03:22:12 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • While I too find the evidence pointing towards an old Earth insightful (age of stars/light, age of arctic ice, geology, sediments, fossils, trees, ...) ...

    You need to actually study these "dating" methods more in depth ... they're pure garbage and rely on unprovable assumptions.

    https://www.kolbecenter.org/radio-dating-specious-creativity/

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 48414
    • Reputation: +28580/-5349
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
    « Reply #201 on: August 29, 2021, 03:25:59 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • "...if there were a true demonstration ... then one would have to proceed with great care in explaining the Scriptures that appear contrary, and say rather that we do not understand them than what is demonstrated is false." (St. Robert).

    I gave you an explanation before that seems to me consistent with both the science and the Scriptures. Shouldn't that be enough?

    Total cop out.  If you're saying it's possible that the Sacred Scriptures might have to be re-interpreted to mean something other than what they clearly say, then let us know what you have in mind.

    No, it's very clear what the Sacred Scriptures teach on the subject, and there's no re-interpretation.

    You're just a run-of-the-mill Modernist and, quite frankly, it disgusts me that you're posing as a Traditional Catholic.

    St. Robert's quote only applies to those matters that are in fact open to various interpretations.  So don't try hiding behind him when if you lived in his day, he'd have condemned you as a heretic.

    If science were to claim that human beings have been around longer than about 6,000 years, then the science is full of it.  But science is your god.

    Online Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 13245
    • Reputation: +8343/-2575
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
    « Reply #202 on: August 29, 2021, 04:15:10 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • Quote
    How could an all-good God let an imperfect universe evolve, wouldn't that mean that He's either not all-good or not all-powerful, as some Atheists say? Because speaking generally, the perfect creation that Scripture tells us about in Genesis would've been totally different from the ecosystems and natural processes we see today, you could say it would've been a completely different creation.
    Could you re-phrase your question?  I don’t follow. 


    Offline Nadir

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 11934
    • Reputation: +7294/-500
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
    « Reply #203 on: August 29, 2021, 10:01:55 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • While I too find the evidence pointing towards an old Earth insightful (age of stars/light, age of arctic ice, geology, sediments, fossils, trees, ...), I think it poses a paradox:
    Because speaking generally, the perfect creation that Scripture tells us about in Genesis would've been totally different from the ecosystems and natural processes we see today, you could say it would've been a completely different creation.
    Firstly, there is no proven evidence that point to an old earth.
    Re: How could an all-good God let an imperfect universe evolve, wouldn't that mean that He's either not all-good or not all-powerful, as some Atheists say?
    You must know the answer - he didn’t and wouldn’t because all of God’s work is good. What does it matter what atheists say, when they don’t even know God. That puts what they say immediately to be doubted.

    Re: the perfect creation that Scripture tells us about in Genesis would've been totally different from the ecosystems and natural processes we see today, 
    It is not a different creation, but the ecosystems and natural processes we see today, are a direct result of the effects of man’s sin.
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    +RIP 2024

    Offline cassini

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4125
    • Reputation: +3412/-275
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
    « Reply #204 on: August 30, 2021, 05:16:32 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Firstly, there is no proven evidence that point to an old earth.
    Re: How could an all-good God let an imperfect universe evolve, wouldn't that mean that He's either not all-good or not all-powerful, as some Atheists say?
    You must know the answer - he didn’t and wouldn’t because all of God’s work is good. What does it matter what atheists say, when they don’t even know God. That puts what they say immediately to be doubted.

    Re: the perfect creation that Scripture tells us about in Genesis would've been totally different from the ecosystems and natural processes we see today,
    It is not a different creation, but the ecosystems and natural processes we see today, are a direct result of the effects of man’s sin.

    Correct Nadir,

    ‘“You read statements in books that such or such a society or archaeological site is 20,000 years old,” he commented, “but we learn rather abruptly that these numbers, these ancient ages, are not known accurately; in fact, it is about the first dynasty of Egypt that the first historical date of any real certainty has been established.”’ --- A. J. White, Radio-Carbon Dating, Cardiff, Wales, 1955, p.10.

    As for Big Bang theistic-evolutionists, well read this.

    ‘302. Creation has its own goodness and proper perfection, but it did not spring forth complete from the hands of the Creator. The universe was created “in a state of journeying” (in statu viae) toward an ultimate perfection yet to be attained, to which God has destined it. We call “divine providence” the dispositions by which God guides his creation toward this perfection:’ ---Pope John Paul II’s Catechism of the Catholic Church (1992).
     
    Such is how Catholic hermeneutics and theology was twisted to accommodate Big Bang theistic-evolutionism as the Jesuit Fr Teilhard de Chardin advocated. Creation did not begin ‘in a state of journeying,’ as the new Catechism of the Catholic Church says above, but ‘finished’ and ‘good’ as Genesis reveals, in a state of relative perfection, ‘in its whole substance’ as the dogma of Vatican I ruled. ‘Substance,’ we know from classic philosophy, means ‘what something is’ and not what something can become or is becoming. After Adam’s fall, St Paul teaches creation lost its perfection and entered a ‘state of journeying’ yes, but towards imperfection and decay, not perfection as the ‘new’ catechism asserts. ‘We know that all creation groans and travails in pain until now,’ wrote St Paul, until the Lord delivers it from its slavery (Romans 8:21-23).
     
    ‘Because the creature also itself shall be delivered from the servitude of corruption, into the liberty of the glory of the children of God. For we know that every creature groaneth and travaileth in pain, even till now. And not only it, but ourselves also, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption of the sons of God, the redemption of our body.’ (8:21-23)
     
    In the end of time, St Paul tells us, God will also restore the perfect beautiful incorruptible Earth and Sky He created immediately in its whole substance at the beginning of time. But according to the new Big Bang creation theology there was no such incorruptible created ‘creature’ to be delivered back to its original perfection. Again, we ask, when were Catholics taught this future revelation of a reastored creation in recent times?

    Offline Stanley N

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1208
    • Reputation: +530/-486
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
    « Reply #205 on: August 30, 2021, 07:08:57 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • You need to actually study these "dating" methods more in depth ... they're pure garbage and rely on unprovable assumptions.
    A field that depends on assumptions that cannot be proven is the ordinary state of affairs. Even mathematics depends on assumptions that cannot be proven.

    But you are demonstrating that talking about science with you is an exercise in futility.

    No, it's very clear what the Sacred Scriptures teach on the subject,
    Since it's "very clear", could you tell us in what year BC Adam was created?

    The Eastern tradition is c 5500 BC.

    I'm not trying to pick a fight here, just curious about your answer.  From Modernists, I have heard the "gap" theory,
    You don't know what modernism is any more than you know science or philosophy of science.

    Was "not trying to pick a fight" a bit of a fib?


    Online Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 13245
    • Reputation: +8343/-2575
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
    « Reply #206 on: August 30, 2021, 10:18:54 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • Quote
    the perfect creation that Scripture tells us about in Genesis would've been totally different from the ecosystems and natural processes we see today, you could say it would've been a completely different creation.

    Let's also not forget the BIG changes to both mankind and nature, after Noah's flood.  Pre-flood, man had a lifespan of centuries.  Nature was also more in harmony with man.  Post-flood, God cursed mankind and also nature, as a punishment for sins.  Mankind's lifespan was now only 100 years and nature was also more violent/erratic, making man's life that much harder, driving him to more humility.
    .
    Also, the flood destroyed the firmament in the heavens and it disrupted the foundations/plates of the earth, which separated the continents by thousands of miles.  The whole earth was in turmoil due to the flood.  These changes were permanent.

    Offline Dankward

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 435
    • Reputation: +238/-265
    • Gender: Male
    • Deo confidimus!
    Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
    « Reply #207 on: August 30, 2021, 01:11:30 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • You need to actually study these "dating" methods more in depth ... they're pure garbage and rely on unprovable assumptions.

    https://www.kolbecenter.org/radio-dating-specious-creativity/
    This is only about radio carbon dating, which is just one of several dating methods used today. It's also only supposed to be accurate in the five to six figure ages. There are other dating methods which are more accurate for much longer timespans by using decay periods of known radioactive elements in rocks to date them. But that by far is not the only thing that points towards an old universe. There's increasing evidence that the universe is in fact very old, things which I and others have listed before in this thread. I can't yet wrap my head around this dilemma.

    Offline cassini

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4125
    • Reputation: +3412/-275
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
    « Reply #208 on: August 30, 2021, 01:27:44 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • This is only about radio carbon dating, which is just one of several dating methods used today. It's also only supposed to be accurate in the five to six figure ages. There are other dating methods which are more accurate for much longer timespans by using decay periods of known radioactive elements in rocks to date them. But that by far is not the only thing that points towards an old universe. There's increasing evidence that the universe is in fact very old, things which I and others have listed before in this thread. I can't yet wrap my head around this dilemma.

    As for radio active dating, well here is the expert, worth listening to.

    https://www.cathinfo.com/the-earth-god-made-flat-earth-geocentrism/wonderful-interview-with-dr-robert-gentry-creationist/

    Offline Dankward

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 435
    • Reputation: +238/-265
    • Gender: Male
    • Deo confidimus!
    Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
    « Reply #209 on: August 30, 2021, 02:10:11 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Could you re-phrase your question?  I don’t follow.
    My question was based on the assumption that the universe would in fact be very old and that evolution happened, controlled by God. Thus the question:
    Quote
    How could an all-good God let an imperfect universe evolve, wouldn't that mean that He's either not all-good or not all-powerful [...]
    But disregarding the age of the universe: The perfect creation that Scripture tells us about in Genesis must've been totally different from the fallen creation we have today, one could say it would've been a completely different creation. There are animals that don't make any sense whatsoever in a perfect creation, they couldn't work that way.

    Why did the velociraptor exist? It's a killing machine. How and why did any carnivores even exist? How did parasites live? Have you ever seen an animal infested by mangoworms? What's that about? It all seems to be about killing, blind, pitiless indifference. What about aging, wearing of bones etc.? The larger or stronger or smarter species survives. What about storms, hurricanes, tornados, tsunamis, volcano eruptions, etc.? I'm having a lot of difficulty imagining the perfect creation.