Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists  (Read 29000 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline DigitalLogos

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8304
  • Reputation: +4718/-754
  • Gender: Male
  • Slave to the Sacred Heart
    • Twitter
Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
« Reply #120 on: August 19, 2021, 11:05:42 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • He agrees with Teihard de Chardin S. J. that modern scientists are wiser than our Church Fathers.
    More intelligent, arguably. But wiser? Utter blasphemy.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46918
    • Reputation: +27783/-5165
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
    « Reply #121 on: August 19, 2021, 11:28:44 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Great question.  Another one is why does the sun *rise* exactly an hour later in each time zone to the west.  Or for that matter, why is it ever dark anywhere if the sun is always above the flat earth?

    There are answers to all this, but I want to respect cassini's thread and not derail it.  Perhaps we could take it up in the FE subforum.  Unfortunately, most of us don't keep up with that because it's hidden away and you don't get notifications of new posts that show up.  I opened a can of worms by mentioning it in passing.


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46918
    • Reputation: +27783/-5165
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
    « Reply #122 on: August 19, 2021, 11:29:46 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • More intelligent, arguably. But wiser? Utter blasphemy.

    I wouldn't even say more intelligent.  There are certain facts that we know that they did not know, but that's about it.

    Offline Marion

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1866
    • Reputation: +759/-1166
    • Gender: Male
    • sedem ablata
    Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
    « Reply #123 on: August 19, 2021, 12:13:53 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Stephen Hawking, too, admits that their model is based on ideology, and that they have no proof against a geocentric model:


    Quote from: Stephen Hawking, A Brief History of Time, Chapter 3
    Now at first sight, all this evidence that the universe looks the same whichever direction we look in might seem
    to suggest there is something special about our place in the universe. In particular, it might seem that if we
    observe all other galaxies to be moving away from us, then we must be at the center of the universe. There is,
    however, an alternate explanation: the universe might look the same in every direction as seen from any other
    galaxy too. This, as we have seen, was Friedmann’s second assumption. We have no scientific evidence for, or
    against, this assumption.
    We believe it only on grounds of modesty: it would be most remarkable if the universe
    looked the same in every direction around us, but not around other points in the universe!

    Note: Friedmann’s second assumption is the so called cosmological principle.


    P.S.: A PDF is available on libgen.is. Just search for the title. Then search for "modesty" in the PDF.
    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)

    Offline Marion

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1866
    • Reputation: +759/-1166
    • Gender: Male
    • sedem ablata
    Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
    « Reply #124 on: August 19, 2021, 12:18:26 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: en.wikipedia, Cosmological principle
    Criticism

    Karl Popper criticized the cosmological principle on the grounds that it makes "our lack of knowledge a principle of knowing something". He summarized his position as:

    the “cosmological principles” were, I fear, dogmas that should not have been proposed.
    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)


    Offline Dankward

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 435
    • Reputation: +238/-265
    • Gender: Male
    • Deo confidimus!
    Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
    « Reply #125 on: August 19, 2021, 12:34:28 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Yes, I'm glad you agree, modern geocentrism is a poison among traditionalists.
    [...]
    As far as I'm aware there is no definitive proof of Heliocentrism, or rather, you can't disprove Geocentrism. By simply observing the relative motion of celestial bodies you can't prove anything (according to Einstein, where he was right for once ::)).
    Do you have arguments that prove Heliocentrism, and/or arguments that disprove Geocentrism?

    Edit:

    As Marion mentioned above:
    Quote
    Stephen Hawking, too, admits that their model is based on ideology, and that they have no proof against a geocentric model:

    Note: Friedmann’s second assumption is the so called cosmological principle.

    P.S.: A PDF is available on libgen.is. Just search for the title. Then search for "modesty" in the PDF.

    Offline Hermes

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 971
    • Reputation: +401/-63
    • Gender: Male
    • Ollo vae
      • Patristics
    Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
    « Reply #126 on: August 19, 2021, 12:40:39 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • George F. R. Ellis

    "I can construct for you a spherically symmetrical universe with Earth at its center, and you cannot disprove it based on observations. "

    Albert Michelson

    "The conclusion (of the Michelson interferometer experiment) contradicts the explanation that the Earth moves"

    Einstein

    "I have come to believe that the motion of the Earth cannot be detected by any optical experiment."

    "The two sentences 'the sun is at rest and the earth moves,' or 'the sun moves and the earth is at rest' are simply two different conventions concerning two different coordinate systems"

    Max Tegmark

    "The pendulum has swung all the way and started to come back on the Copernican principle."

    Isaac Newton

    "celestial bodies can move around the Earth at rest, as in the Tychonic system."

    Henrick Lorentz

    "Briefly, everything occurs as if the Earth were at rest."

    Henri Poincaré

    "A great deal of research has been carried out concerning the influence of the Earth's movement. The results were always negative."

    Steven Weinberg

    "If we were to adopt a frame of reference like Tycho's in which the Earth is at rest, then the distant galaxies would seem to be executing circular turns once a year, and in general relativity this enormous motion would create forces akin to gravitation, which would act on the Sun and planets and give them the motions of the Tychonic theory."

    Stephen Hawking

    "our observations of the heavens can be explained by assuming either the earth or the sun to be at rest."

    "if we observe all other galaxies to be moving away from us, then we must be at the center of the universe... or the universe might look the same in every direction as seen from any other galaxy, too... We have no scientific evidence for, or against, this assumption."

    Edwin Hubble

    "This hypothesis (of a central Earth) cannot be disproved, but it is unwelcome and would only be accepted as a last resort"

    "We disregard this possibility. The unwelcome position of a favored location must be avoided at all costs."

    "Such a favored position is intolerable".

    Lawrence Krauss

    "when you look at CMB map, you also see that the structure that is observed, is in fact, in a weird way, correlated with the plane of the earth around the sun...That would say we are truly the center of the universe."

    O Fortuna
    Velut luna

    Offline cassini

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3893
    • Reputation: +3020/-275
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
    « Reply #127 on: August 19, 2021, 12:45:53 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • George F. R. Ellis

    "I can construct for you a spherically symmetrical universe with Earth at its center, and you cannot disprove it based on observations. "

    Albert Michelson

    "The conclusion (of the Michelson interferometer experiment) contradicts the explanation that the Earth moves"

    Einstein

    "I have come to believe that the motion of the Earth cannot be detected by any optical experiment."

    "The two sentences 'the sun is at rest and the earth moves,' or 'the sun moves and the earth is at rest' are simply two different conventions concerning two different coordinate systems"

    Max Tegmark

    "The pendulum has swung all the way and started to come back on the Copernican principle."

    Isaac Newton

    "celestial bodies can move around the Earth at rest, as in the Tychonic system."

    Henrick Lorentz

    "Briefly, everything occurs as if the Earth were at rest."

    Henri Poincaré

    "A great deal of research has been carried out concerning the influence of the Earth's movement. The results were always negative."

    Steven Weinberg

    "If we were to adopt a frame of reference like Tycho's in which the Earth is at rest, then the distant galaxies would seem to be executing circular turns once a year, and in general relativity this enormous motion would create forces akin to gravitation, which would act on the Sun and planets and give them the motions of the Tychonic theory."

    Stephen Hawking

    "our observations of the heavens can be explained by assuming either the earth or the sun to be at rest."

    "if we observe all other galaxies to be moving away from us, then we must be at the center of the universe... or the universe might look the same in every direction as seen from any other galaxy, too... We have no scientific evidence for, or against, this assumption."

    Edwin Hubble

    "This hypothesis (of a central Earth) cannot be disproved, but it is unwelcome and would only be accepted as a last resort"

    "We disregard this possibility. The unwelcome position of a favored location must be avoided at all costs."

    "Such a favored position is intolerable".

    Lawrence Krauss

    "when you look at CMB map, you also see that the structure that is observed, is in fact, in a weird way, correlated with the plane of the earth around the sun...That would say we are truly the center of the universe."

    How about that Stanley? Now, do an ad hominem on that lot. 


    Offline Yeti

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 4121
    • Reputation: +2428/-528
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
    « Reply #128 on: August 19, 2021, 01:34:11 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • Your arrogance in favor of modern science is what I object to.
    .
    :facepalm: Lad, why do you keep saying that round earthism is an idea of modern science? It isn't. I just told you Aristotle proved the earth was round 400 years before Christ, because only a sphere could cast a shadow onto the moon that is always perfectly round. Every advanced civilization in history, just about, has believed that the earth is round, and the contrary opinion was basically invented by a 19th-century con artist named Samuel Rowbotham started the Universal Zetetic Society which published tracts arguing that the earth is flat. That society was composed mostly of leftist radicals.

    Offline Yeti

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 4121
    • Reputation: +2428/-528
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
    « Reply #129 on: August 19, 2021, 01:39:53 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • Okay, I stand corrected. Wikipedia says the classical age Greeks were the first ones to discover the shape of the earth. But that still takes us back to the beginning of western civilization. I also forgot to mention that the fact that ships disappear from the bottom upwards as they sail away from you was also considered proof that the earth is round. Indeed it is. Strabo argued this around the time of Christ.
    .

    Offline Dankward

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 435
    • Reputation: +238/-265
    • Gender: Male
    • Deo confidimus!
    Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
    « Reply #130 on: August 19, 2021, 01:46:42 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • "If we were to adopt a frame of reference like Tycho's in which the Earth is at rest, then the distant galaxies would seem to be executing circular turns once a year, and in general relativity this enormous motion would create forces akin to gravitation, which would act on the Sun and planets and give them the motions of the Tychonic theory."
    Very nice quotes, Hermes, thanks. I believe those are from Sungenis' Geocentrism book?

    Regarding the motion of the galaxies - they'd have to rotate around the world once a day, wouldn't theyBut wouldn't this rotation have to occur daily? In the Heliocentric model, Earth

    Quote
    Stephen Hawking

    "This hypothesis (of a central Earth) cannot be disproved, but it is unwelcome and would only be accepted as a last resort"

    "We disregard this possibility. The unwelcome position of a favored location must be avoided at all costs."

    "Such a favored position is intolerable".
    "unwelcome position"... "avoided at all costs"... "intolerable" - but science way beyond any doubt, bias or ideology. :jester:


    .
    :facepalm: Lad, why do you keep saying that round earthism is an idea of modern science? It isn't. I just told you Aristotle proved the earth was round 400 years before Christ, because only a sphere could cast a shadow onto the moon that is always perfectly round. Every advanced civilization in history, just about, has believed that the earth is round, and the contrary opinion was basically invented by a 19th-century con artist named Samuel Rowbotham started the Universal Zetetic Society which published tracts arguing that the earth is flat. That society was composed mostly of lҽϝƚιsƚ radicals.
    The ancient Egyptians for example (among other cultures) believed the world to be flat, and limited to the Nile area, because that was all they knew.


    Offline Yeti

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 4121
    • Reputation: +2428/-528
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
    « Reply #131 on: August 19, 2021, 01:51:42 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0

  • Quote
    Sciences are differentiated according to the various means through which knowledge is obtained. For the astronomer and the physicist both may prove the same conclusion: that the earth, for instance, is round: the astronomer by means of mathematics (i.e. abstracting from matter), but the physicist by means of matter itself.

    .
    Summa Theologiae, Ia pars, Q. 1, Art. 1, ad 2um
    .
    Did St. Thomas Aquinas get brainwashed by NASA?

    Offline Romulus

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 514
    • Reputation: +306/-61
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
    « Reply #132 on: August 19, 2021, 01:56:45 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • .
    Summa Theologiae, Ia pars, Q. 1, Art. 1, ad 2um
    .
    Did St. Thomas Aquinas get brainwashed by NASA?
    He did. NASA had a time machine from an ancient alien civilization :jester:

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46918
    • Reputation: +27783/-5165
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
    « Reply #133 on: August 19, 2021, 02:27:55 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Even according to Newtonian physics, heliocentrism is incorrect.  In his system, the planets would all revolve around the barycenter of the solar system, and not the sun per se, and occasionally this barycenter is outside of the sun.  Then of course the original notion of heliocentrism where the sun was fixed in place is wrong, as scientists allegedly hold that the entire solar system is moving through space, and then the entire galaxy, etc.  According to Newton, the only fixed point in the entire universe would be at the very barycenter of the universe.  No one can prove that is not the earth.

    Offline Meg

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6791
    • Reputation: +3467/-2999
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
    « Reply #134 on: August 19, 2021, 04:27:56 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • We are mere humans. We can't really see beyond a certain point. We think we can figure it all out in an exact manner - that which God has created. But can we really do that? 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29