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Author Topic: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists  (Read 39254 times)

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Offline DigitalLogos

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Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
« Reply #45 on: August 16, 2021, 04:41:19 PM »
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  • By lifting up science, he's lifting himself up? That has to be it.
    I recall in the entry for St. Alphonsus in Butler's Lives of the Saints a short excerpt about this very problem. St. Alphonsus told his missionaries to preach with simplicity and kindness, not high theological matters because otherwise they were preaching themselves and not the Gospel.

    It appears Fr. Robinson has this same issue.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
    « Reply #46 on: August 16, 2021, 06:57:25 PM »
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  • Quote
    By now, scientists are pretty sure
    Scientists don’t know &!@$.  It’s all a house of cards.  Theories built on conjectures, attached together by guesses.
    .
    Science was hijacked by Freemasons going back to the Middle Ages, BEFORE GALILEO.  Heck, if you believe the book of Enoch (and much I do), then science/astronomy came to man directly from the devil’s/fallen angels/nephalim.  Science has been the religion if the devil/evil joos/satanist from the get go.  To the Tower of Babel, Philistines, Canaanite, Greeks, Romans, etc.  .
    You could argue that science is a religion, in many ways.  Modern science (post 1400s) is surely a cult.  Modern Astronomy is simply part of witchcraft.  
    .
    Everything we *think* we know about the universe, planets, sun, stars, etc...where did this knowledge come from?  High-ranking Freemasons such as Copernicus, Galileo, Descartes, DaVinci, etc, etc.  
    .
    We all need to take a giant step back from modern science and realize much is a lie, intended to 1) erase God from the creation, 2) inflate man’s ego, and distract him from daily duties by concentrating on “billions of light years” (...how ridiculous) away 3) reduce the importance of earth, which limits the importance of Christ, His Church and our earthy battle for salvation, 4) raise the importance of science over faith/bible/church, 5) create a new industry for $.


    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
    « Reply #47 on: August 16, 2021, 07:50:30 PM »
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  • Heck, if you believe the book of Enoch (and much I do), then science/astronomy came to man directly from the devil’s/fallen angels/nephalim.
    .
    :confused:
    See, I'm sympathetic to some of the points you made in that post, but here I think you went a little outside the lines ...

    Offline apollo

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    Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
    « Reply #48 on: August 16, 2021, 08:57:15 PM »
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  • Scientists don’t know &!@$.  It’s all a house of cards.  Theories built on conjectures, attached together by guesses.
    .
    We all need to take a giant step back from modern science and realize much is a lie, intended to 1) erase God from the creation, 2) inflate man’s ego, and distract him from daily duties by concentrating on “billions of light years” (...how ridiculous) away 3) reduce the importance of earth, which limits the importance of Christ, His Church and our earthy battle for salvation, 4) raise the importance of science over faith/bible/church, 5) create a new industry for $.
    .
    Have you sold your cell phone and computer yet ?
    Canceled your internet connection yet ?
    Better not buy any evil telescopes. 

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
    « Reply #49 on: August 16, 2021, 09:00:20 PM »
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  • Quote
    here I think you went a little outside the lines ...

    Well, what do you disagree with?  God created Adam and Eve in a garden.  Agriculture, working with wood, and the raising of animals has always been the most Christianized form of industry, because it puts man in a humble state, depending upon God for rain, good weather and protection from insects.
    .
    The nephalim/giants were on the earth before and after the Flood.  After the Flood, these people (whom Enoch describes as children of fallen angels and whom Anne Catherine Emmerich says were children from satanic rituals) came back into the line of Chaanan, who was cursed by Noah.  Chaanan's descendent was Nimrod, who built the tower of Babel, which was an openly satanic structure, with anti-God purpose.  
    .
    All throughout the post-Flood Scripture, the race of Shem (i.e. the Shem-ites, or Israelites), who followed God's laws, fought the evil races of the Chaananites and all other manner of pagan races.  These evil races were very advanced in weaponry, science, herbs, etc.  The people of God (i.e. David) only defeated such races as the Phillistines (i.e. Goliath) by God's power, because they were, literally, giants/nephalim and had satanic knowledge of the earth/nature/science.
    .
    If such advanced, satanic knowledge of science existed in the nephalim AFTER the flood, then it stands to reason that the same knowledge existed BEFORE the flood, since the nephalim also existed before the flood.  Add to this, that mankind was MORE healthy and more intellectually knowledgeable BEFORE the flood, because God shortened man's life post-flood, as a punishment for sin.
    .
    Thus, what Enoch describes in his book, wherein the nephalim learned all natural knowledge from fallen demons, is proven correct, by both logic, scripture and prophecy.  Let's also not forget that the book of Enoch was considered part of the old testament by the Jews, even during Christ's time, since even Christ quoted the book in the Gospels.  It was only left out of the canon by the Church because in the time period between the destruction of Jerusalem in the 70s til the 300s (when the bible was organized), this book was lost and the "found" copy was thought corrupt by the Church, so it couldn't be fully trusted.  But it is still considered "close" to canon and can be read by catholics (with caution).


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
    « Reply #50 on: August 16, 2021, 09:01:57 PM »
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    Have you sold your cell phone and computer yet ?
    Canceled your internet connection yet ?
    Better not buy any evil telescopes.

    You missed my point.  I'm only talking about the science of planets/astronomy, which was hijacked by Galileo and fellow freemasons.  The PHILOSOPHY of what science means - what we should learn from it, and how it impacts our life - was corrupted; there's nothing wrong with studying the stars.

    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
    « Reply #51 on: August 16, 2021, 09:31:09 PM »
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  • That video I posted discusses how redshift theory has been seriously questioned by top astronomers due to finding various anomalies, such as quasars, which have totally skewed redshift numbers ... indicating that something other than movement away from us can be and is responsible for redshift.

    That video also discusses how the entire theory of an "expanding" universe comes from the tenuous redshift, and that in turn the Big Bang comes from the notion of reversing the current "expansion".  So it's a house of cards all built on redshift.  Astronomers who questioned redshift were silenced (lots of specific examples cited) because they threatened to overturn Big Bang theory.  Now, there have been other problems with Big Bang.  They've had to revise it a few times, saying that there were phases of it.  Recently, to keep it alive on life support, they had to posit the existence of "dark matter".
    Nonsense.

    There were various different hypotheses about quasars' redshifts in the 1950s and 1960s. The video just repeats the arguments. These hypotheses (including Halton Arp's) were taken seriously and investigated. After more observations and analysis, in the 1970s the consensus resolved to quasars as distant objects. Some like Arp may not have accepted that, but the consensus was and still is based on evidence.

    The consensus is based on multiple lines of evidence in agreement, not a "house of cards". That you can even say that makes it clear that you know nothing about this field. And because you have no knowledge in this field, you lack the background to recognize the problems in the video you posted.

    And again, speaking falsehoods (like the video) is easy in comparison to correcting those falsehoods.

    Offline cassini

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    Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
    « Reply #52 on: August 17, 2021, 07:04:25 AM »
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  • That video I posted discusses how redshift theory has been seriously questioned by top astronomers due to finding various anomalies, such as quasars, which have totally skewed redshift numbers ... indicating that something other than movement away from us can be and is responsible for redshift.

    That video also discusses how the entire theory of an "expanding" universe comes from the tenuous redshift, and that in turn the Big Bang comes from the notion of reversing the current "expansion".  So it's a house of cards all built on redshift.  Astronomers who questioned redshift were silenced (lots of specific examples cited) because they threatened to overturn Big Bang theory.  Now, there have been other problems with Big Bang.  They've had to revise it a few times, saying that there were phases of it.  Recently, to keep it alive on life support, they had to posit the existence of "dark matter".

    Absolutely correct Ladislaus. Here is the history of the Big Bang invention and the need for invisible 'dark matter.'

    In 1922, the Russian Alexander Friedmann (1888-1925) ‘made the simplifying assumption that the universe had to be uniformly filled with a thin soup of matter.’ He ‘found a mistake in Albert Einstein’s 1917 paper on cosmology and established that general relativity predicted the universe is unstable and the slightest perturbation would cause it to expand or contract.’ Immediately others wanted in on the new theoretical cosmology, including the Jesuit Monsignor Abbé Georges Lemaître (1894-1966) who ‘was the first to use Friedmann-type solutions to formulate a ‘scientific’ model for the beginning of the universe that he called the Primordial Atom or Cosmic Egg.’ All that was needed now was for someone to come up with some evidence for Fr Lemaître’s idea of a ‘miraculous’ exploding cosmic-atom. Such a ‘proof’ would ensure immortality of name and achievement similar to all the Earthmovers that preceded them.

    That occurred when the American astronomer Edwin Hubble (1889-1953) in 1929, using a newly built 100-inch telescope, viewed faraway galaxies for the first time. Examining the spectral-light emitted by these stars he found a lengthening of the red end with ‘nearly all of them,’ the further away the more they expand. On this basis, Hubble held that the stars and galaxies were flying outwards in every direction at enormous speed as seen from Earth, which, if extrapolated - put into reverse - suggested an initial beginning from a central point. But this presented a problem for them. If all the stars as seen from Earth had red shifts interpreted as moving away from Earth, then the Earth had to be at the centre of the universe. But this was a conclusion they didn’t want, so another ad hoc had to be invented. If, as Einstein proposed, all cosmic bodies existed on the surface of an expanding balloon type universe, then Hubble’s theory need not point to the Earth at its centre.

    Now many studies undertaken since have produced conflicting versions of Hubble’s interpretation of red-shifts.[1]Missed by all of course was the fact that a geocentric universe would also produce the very same expanding universe equally well, if it is expanding that is. In 1543 hadn’t Copernicus first pointed out in his De revolutionibus that an effect of a geocentric world would be a starry Carousel-swing type of expansion of stars outwards?

    [1]See for example Robert V. Gentry’s Creation’s Tiny Mystery, Earth Science Associates, 2004.

    ‘But why didn’t Ptolemy feel anxiety about the world instead; whose movements must necessarily be of greater velocity, the greater the heavens are than the Earth? Or have the heavens become so immense, because an unspeakably vehement motion has pulled them away from the centre, and because the heavens would fall if they came to rest anywhere else.’ --- Copernicus's On the Revolutions, Book 1, par 8.
     
    Why then didn’t Fr Lemaître and science consider that red-shifts in stars could also show evidence for geocentrism? That was the conclusion the champion of their cosmology Copernicus came to. Isn’t true-science supposed to consider all options when investigating any such observation? Yes it is, but such a consideration would be ‘perverse’ as Dawkins put it, wouldn’t it?


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
    « Reply #53 on: August 17, 2021, 07:27:06 AM »
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  • Scientists don’t know &!@$.  It’s all a house of cards.  Theories built on conjectures, attached together by guesses.
    .
    Science was hijacked by Freemasons going back to the Middle Ages, BEFORE GALILEO.  Heck, if you believe the book of Enoch (and much I do), then science/astronomy came to man directly from the devil’s/fallen angels/nephalim.  Science has been the religion if the devil/evil joos/satanist from the get go.  To the Tower of Babel, Philistines, Canaanite, Greeks, Romans, etc.  .
    You could argue that science is a religion, in many ways.  Modern science (post 1400s) is surely a cult.  Modern Astronomy is simply part of witchcraft.  
    .
    Everything we *think* we know about the universe, planets, sun, stars, etc...where did this knowledge come from?  High-ranking Freemasons such as Copernicus, Galileo, Descartes, DaVinci, etc, etc.  
    .
    We all need to take a giant step back from modern science and realize much is a lie, intended to 1) erase God from the creation, 2) inflate man’s ego, and distract him from daily duties by concentrating on “billions of light years” (...how ridiculous) away 3) reduce the importance of earth, which limits the importance of Christ, His Church and our earthy battle for salvation, 4) raise the importance of science over faith/bible/church, 5) create a new industry for $.

    THIS^^^

    Offline cassini

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    Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
    « Reply #54 on: August 17, 2021, 07:35:09 AM »
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  • There are a number of things taught by Sacred Scripture that are simply incompatible with modern science's view.  No amount of "interpreting" it can absolve it of error.

    God created the earth before the sun and the stars.  Either this is true, or it's an error.  In order to explain this away, you have to resort to, "the Bible doesn't intend to teach about science."  Regardless, the Bible, having been authored by Holy Spirit, cannot contain error.  And this would be error.

    God created Adam from the earth, and the woman from the man.  This rules out even a theistic version of evolution.  There's no way that "earth" could possible be "interpreted" as ... a primate.

    Sacred Scripture lays down a very clear chronology for human beings that cannot be reconciled with anything more than about 6,000 or so years.  You can't even pull the stunt about, "perhaps there's a different meaning of years," because making a year anything more than a year would result in individual human beings like Adam or Seth having lived for 10s of thousands of years.

    If there's error in the Bible, then the Holy Spirit was not the primary author of Sacred Scripture, or else you have to reinterpret what this authorship means, watering it down to, "the Holy Spirit inspired the general message behind each book."

    Again Ladislaus, spot on. Now let us read a portion of the book written by the heliocentrist Fr Roberts:

    ‘How in the name of common sense can what a book really signified in the past [geocentrism] be altered, or its then truth be saved, if what it then signified was false, by an inter­pretation the legitimacy of which depends solely on the production of evidence that did not then exist? If for centuries, according to every known sound and received principle of exegesis, and all the cognisable data that could throw light on the matter, the language of Scripture was so expressed on the subject as to forbid its being understood otherwise than geocentrically, if nothing short of overwhelming scientific evidence in favour of heliocentrism would justify the opinion that Scripture does not contradict that theory, plainly geocentricism is what the written Word really signifies, and no astronomical discovery can alter the fact. Is it reasonable to say that while a certain sense is not too much opposed to the letter for the author to mean it, its very opposition to the letter makes it un­lawful for those he addresses to suppose him to mean it? Can we, simply by the laws of the language used, be bound to ascribe a meaning to a writer’s words that he - by those laws under the circuмstances - is not bound to give them? Can we call a writer truthful and trustworthy whose words, by themselves, and according to their one legitimate interpretation, oblige us to believe what is false? Is it, then, less than blasphemy to say that God caused Scripture to be so worded as to bind men to error by the force of its terms? That He demanded faith in His Word, and spoke in what theologians call morally undiscoverable equivocations? Who can fail to see that estimate of the Copernican [rather Galilean] interpretation of Scripture is tantamount to a confession, that such an interpretation is a mere makeshift, that the dicta of the sacred writers, properly understood, are really at variance with what we now know to be the truth [Roberts thinks it is heliocentric], and that, there­fore, God could not have been their author? And thus it appears that Rome’s ill-judged attempt [in 1820-35] to save the authority of Holy Scripture was an implicit denial, of her own dogma on inspiration, and a virtual surrender of the whole position into the enemy’s hand. I say an implicit denial of her own dogma on inspira­tion, for the Vatican Council I has defined it to be a matter of faith that God is the author of the whole of Scripture, and of every part of it—meaning by Scripture all the books enumerated by the Council of Trent as sacred and canonical. Cardinal Franzelin has shown that this doc­trine obliges us to hold that God not only caused the human writers of the books named to conceive, with a view to writing them down, those truths, and those truths only, that he meant them to communicate; but further, that God so controlled them in their use of lan­guage, that they chose, and chose infallibly, terms fit to express the divinely intended meaning. In Galileo’s time, when Copernicanism was condemned, the objected passages of Scripture either were, or were not, adapted to express a meaning not at variance with the theory: if they were, the opinion that they were was reasonable and defensible, apart from any scientific evidence whatever that the earth moved; if they were not, the evidence we [think we] have that the earth moves is evidence that God was not the author of those passages. Thus, giving the judgment the very meaning apologists insist is the right one, it implicitly denies the intrinsic reasonableness of the only exposition that can bring certain assertions of Scripture into harmony with science, and in so doing, it implicitly denies that Scripture in all its parts is the written Word of God. The doctrine, there­fore, of the decision is not only false, but opposed to what the Roman Church holds to be a dogma of the faith.’[1]

    [1]Rev. William W. Roberts: The Pontifical Decrees against the Earth’s Movement and the Ultramontane Defence of them, Parker and Company, London, 1870, revised 1885, p.40.


    Offline cassini

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    Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
    « Reply #55 on: August 17, 2021, 08:52:04 AM »
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  • Fr. Robinson really seems to have fallen for the siren song of Science -- but not true science. The religion of science. He puts too much emphasis on it. Perhaps because he studied it a lot, and he's somewhat adept at it?

    By lifting up science, he's lifting himself up? That has to be it.

    https://www.buzzsprout.com/1044874/5402626-a-lounge-room-chat-with-father-paul-robinson

    Now skip to 25 minutes and listen to what this 'intellectual' priest was teaching SSPX seminarians. Before that he quotes Pope Leo XIII's encyclical and the Biblical commission on the word yom in Genesis. Now read Providentissimus deus and you will find an encyclical written to STOP the reinterpretation of Scripture after churchmen allowed the changing of the literal geocentric words of Scripture be read as teaching the very opposite. Pope Leo XIII, while rightfully saying that not every opinion of EACH of the Fathers is to be adhered to, did say what ALL OF THE FATHERS agreed on must be held without question. And, as we all know, or should know, one of those revelations was that the sun orbits the Earth. Note also that Fr Robinson fails to note Pope Benedict XV's 1920: Spiritus Paraclitus does not allow 'science' to change anything.

    Here is what the Biblical commission said on the question of Yom/day

    ‘Concerning the Historical Character of the First Three Chapters of Genesis.
    VIII: In the designation and distinction of the six days mentioned in the first chapter of Genesis may the word Yom (day) be taken either in the literal sense for the natural day or in an applied sense for a certain space of time, and may this question be the subject of free discussion among exegetes?
    Answer: In the affirmative.’ --- Biblical Commission, June 30, 1909

    Hugh Owen, Kolbe center adds;

    ‘In reality, the other answers released simultaneously by the PBC in 1909 to questions about Genesis 1-3 exclude the possibility of inserting long ages of time into the Hexameron, but the answer about the meaning of “day,” taken by itself, left an opening that the Earthmovers and evolutionists have been exploiting ever since.’ ---

    Needless to say Fr Robinson paid no heed to both above, disregarding the teaching of ALL OF THE FATHERS, and using the Biblical commission to make yom mean 3 billion years each except Sunday which they kept as a day.

    Next, Fr Robinson, as you hear in this interview, places his whole teaching of faith and reason is based on human reason being able to age the universe as far older than Genesis. And how does he do this? He says science has proven there arev stars 13.8 billions of 'light-years' away, so that proves his rejection of Genesis. I have put it to him on his Q&A blog that it proves nothing other that God created stars on day 4, the same day He created birds, some stars 13.5 billion light years away. That is the last I heard from him and my argument against his whole notion of faith and science never went up on his Q&A website.


    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
    « Reply #56 on: August 17, 2021, 10:49:22 AM »
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  • https://www.buzzsprout.com/1044874/5402626-a-lounge-room-chat-with-father-paul-robinson

    Now skip to 25 minutes and listen to what this 'intellectual' priest was teaching SSPX seminarians. Before that he quotes Pope Leo XIII's encyclical and the Biblical commission on the word yom in Genesis. Now read Providentissimus deus and you will find an encyclical written to STOP the reinterpretation of Scripture after churchmen allowed the changing of the literal geocentric words of Scripture be read as teaching the very opposite. Pope Leo XIII, while rightfully saying that not every opinion of EACH of the Fathers is to be adhered to, did say what ALL OF THE FATHERS agreed on must be held without question. And, as we all know, or should know, one of those revelations was that the sun orbits the Earth. Note also that Fr Robinson fails to note Pope Benedict XV's 1920: Spiritus Paraclitus does not allow 'science' to change anything.

    Here is what the Biblical commission said on the question of Yom/day

    ‘Concerning the Historical Character of the First Three Chapters of Genesis.
    VIII: In the designation and distinction of the six days mentioned in the first chapter of Genesis may the word Yom (day) be taken either in the literal sense for the natural day or in an applied sense for a certain space of time, and may this question be the subject of free discussion among exegetes?
    Answer: In the affirmative.’ --- Biblical Commission, June 30, 1909

    Hugh Owen, Kolbe center adds;

    ‘In reality, the other answers released simultaneously by the PBC in 1909 to questions about Genesis 1-3 exclude the possibility of inserting long ages of time into the Hexameron, but the answer about the meaning of “day,” taken by itself, left an opening that the Earthmovers and evolutionists have been exploiting ever since.’ ---

    Needless to say Fr Robinson paid no heed to both above, disregarding the teaching of ALL OF THE FATHERS, and using the Biblical commission to make yom mean 3 billion years each except Sunday which they kept as a day.

    Next, Fr Robinson, as you hear in this interview, places his whole teaching of faith and reason is based on human reason being able to age the universe as far older than Genesis. And how does he do this? He says science has proven there arev stars 13.8 billions of 'light-years' away, so that proves his rejection of Genesis. I have put it to him on his Q&A blog that it proves nothing other that God created stars on day 4, the same day He created birds, some stars 13.5 billion light years away. That is the last I heard from him and my argument against his whole notion of faith and science never went up on his Q&A

    That the SSPX would use a vain and vulgar priest to evangelize the Carl Sagan (jew) version of creation is simply masonic.
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Dankward

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    Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
    « Reply #57 on: August 17, 2021, 02:27:21 PM »
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  • There are a number of things taught by Sacred Scripture that are simply incompatible with modern science's view.  No amount of "interpreting" it can absolve it of error.

    God created the earth before the sun and the stars.  Either this is true, or it's an error.  In order to explain this away, you have to resort to, "the Bible doesn't intend to teach about science."  Regardless, the Bible, having been authored by Holy Spirit, cannot contain error.  And this would be error.

    God created Adam from the earth, and the woman from the man.  This rules out even a theistic version of evolution.  There's no way that "earth" could possible be "interpreted" as ... a primate.

    Sacred Scripture lays down a very clear chronology for human beings that cannot be reconciled with anything more than about 6,000 or so years.  You can't even pull the stunt about, "perhaps there's a different meaning of years," because making a year anything more than a year would result in individual human beings like Adam or Seth having lived for 10s of thousands of years.

    If there's error in the Bible, then the Holy Spirit was not the primary author of Sacred Scripture, or else you have to reinterpret what this authorship means, watering it down to, "the Holy Spirit inspired the general message behind each book."

    Good points.

    Regarding Adam and Eve, there are some elaborate ways of explaining how "Earth", or sometimes soil, means that man was created from the same elements as his environment, so that goes down to atoms, basically. In the end all live comes from atoms in the "soil". So that'd allow for two versions of theistic evolution, one being evolution from apes and the other being supernatural creation of man from Earth, with no connection to apes. The latter is also used often by theistic evolutionists to reconcile an old universe with biblical chronology regarding humans.

    When you look at the days of Genesis, the plants are created on the third day, before the sun and moon. That means the Earth should've been too cold for life to exist. Or it was already warmed up to some degree beforehand (I think Dr. Sungenis uses this explanation in his Geocentrism book). But then the temperature had to be just right to be warm enough for life on day 3, but cooled down enough for the Sun to not overheat the planet from day 4, which is quite intricate, thinking about it.

    By the way, the measure of "days" was invented by humans by observing the sun (and indirectly the moon for "months"). So if the word "day" is used in Genesis, at a time where the day-night-cycle wasn't in existence yet, that's somewhat interesting.

    Offline Dankward

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    Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
    « Reply #58 on: August 17, 2021, 02:44:37 PM »
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  • Is this a quote from the Sungenis movie? I remember being very convinced by all his arguments until it got to this part, where I almost choked on my beer. In one simple computer animation in which Sungenis showed this, I was stunned to see the entire geocentric model fall completely apart like a house of cards, and I had been a lifelong geocentrist up to that point. What he showed was basically an animation of the sun and all the stars moving in a circular or elliptical manner around the earth, which remained fixed in the center, and said that the stars were rotating around the sun, but the sun and the stars were rotating around the earth, and therefore the earth was fixed.
    :laugh1: Well, let's see.

    So what you quoted there from me was what I quoted from a post by cassini, who didn't give special attribution for that paragraph. So either it's from his personal notes, or it's from a Sungenis book or movie.

    Regardless, I think it's quite conclusive from a relativistic point of view. If you assume Earth to be absolutely still, that would mean the following, according to our human observations since thousands of years:
    • the Sun orbits the Earth in an elliptical orbit and an average diameter of ~93 million miles daily
    • the planets orbit the Sun daily
    • the Sun changes it's ecliptic (orbital plane) to create the seasons, it oscillates up and down (without changing the planets' ecliptic IIRC)
    • all galaxies and stars rotate around the Sun (with insane speed, greater than the speed of light), creating stellar parallax because of the 93 million mile radius movement


    General relativity allows to see it that way. You can't tell from just one point (Earth) if you're moving or still, we'd need a second observer to cross-check the results.


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    There are a couple of problems here. First of all, the computer bizarrely showed this movement from a viewpoint that was outside the universe. Now, since by definition there is nowhere that is outside the universe, the animation cannot be used as a proof of anything. This may sound like a nitpick, but it makes no sense to say, "Here's a rendition of what type of motion I'm talking about," and then demonstrate that with a video that is logically impossible. A video that is logically impossible is worthless as an argument.

    Well, a view from Earth would've worked as well in theory, but it's a bad vantage point to view the universe from, it would've been a lot of clutter. Same as e.g. top-down views of our solar system, or the Milky Way, etc.


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    My second and much more serious objection to this idea is to ask, What does it mean for the earth to be the center? Doesn't it mean that the stars and galaxies rotate around the earth? Basically, doesn't it mean that the stars rotate around the earth the way a wheel rotates around its hub? Isn't the hub the center of a wheel? And yet Sungenis is claiming that the sun functions as the hub of the wheel, and the stars all remain equidistant from the sun, not the earth, and yet somehow it is the earth and not the sun that is the center of the universe. If you posit such a thing, then by what definition or criterion is the earth the center of the universe? What makes it the center? He's basically saying to look at a bicycle wheel and see it rotate, but then he tells you that the reflector halfway up one of the spokes is actually the center of the wheel, and the hub and spokes are rotating around that reflector. By definition, the center of a rotating system is the part that remains equidistant from every other part of the system, and Sungenis said in his system that's the sun, not the earth.

    Yeah, the wheel analogy is pretty much on point, but remember the motion of the stars would happen at an orbit of 93 million miles, the center of the stars is the Sun. The center of the Sun is the Earth.


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    Thirdly, the video posited that the universe as a whole moves with a local motion. This is irrational, illogical and impossible. While it is obvious that the universe as a whole rotates in place like a ball, since we see the heavenly bodies rotate around the earth, if you say that the entire universe moves in an elliptical orbit, you are implicitly saying there is some space in which the universe as a whole moves in that orbit, i.e. you are positing that the entire universe, as a system, is contained within some other space, through which it moves in an elliptical manner. This is a contradiction inasmuch as the universe by definition is all there is, there is nothing outside the universe in which it can move.

    Yes, that other "containing space" would be something like the Aether (ether). Sungenis also makes the connection to Genesis there, with the waters above the firmament.

    I hope I got these things right from memory and logic, please correct me if I'm wrong. But relativistic Geocentrism is quite interesting and feasible.

    Personally I'm skeptical but open minded. Some would say that Heliocentrism contradicts the Sacred Scripture (esp. Genesis) just as much as the otehr points that are mentioned on this thread.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
    « Reply #59 on: August 17, 2021, 03:28:15 PM »
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  • Good points.

    Regarding Adam and Eve, there are some elaborate ways of explaining how "Earth", or sometimes soil, means that man was created from the same elements as his environment, so that goes down to atoms, basically. In the end all live comes from atoms in the "soil". So that'd allow for two versions of theistic evolution, one being evolution from apes and the other being supernatural creation of man from Earth, with no connection to apes. The latter is also used often by theistic evolutionists to reconcile an old universe with biblical chronology regarding humans.

    When you look at the days of Genesis, the plants are created on the third day, before the sun and moon. That means the Earth should've been too cold for life to exist. Or it was already warmed up to some degree beforehand (I think Dr. Sungenis uses this explanation in his Geocentrism book). But then the temperature had to be just right to be warm enough for life on day 3, but cooled down enough for the Sun to not overheat the planet from day 4, which is quite intricate, thinking about it.

    By the way, the measure of "days" was invented by humans by observing the sun (and indirectly the moon for "months"). So if the word "day" is used in Genesis, at a time where the day-night-cycle wasn't in existence yet, that's somewhat interesting.

    Sure, God created man from the elements that are also in the soil.  If you look at the chemical composition of soil, it's almost identical to that of the human body.  Nevertheless, the Church Fathers unanimously taught that soil / earth meant soil / earth and was not some metaphor for a monkey.  Genesis clearly would have stated God made man from an animal, and not from the soil, i.e. non-living matter.

    We're not sure how God did it, but He created light (and presumably warmth) at the very beginning.  So there was light and warmth for the plants before the sun was put into place to be a more direct source of light.  But there's no way scientologists (I use a pejorative term to counter his "Biblicist" slur) would believe this.  They would have to hold that the order of Creation taught in Genesis was just plain wrong.  I have yet to see a credible explanation from them as to why this would not be error.  All you get is the generic, "Well, the Bible isn't a science book and didn't intend to teach about science."  But it did make certain statements regarding the natural world, and these they have to hold to be WRONG.  Either God made the plants before the sun or He did not.

    Once you allow any error into Sacred Scripture, the floodgates open.  What ELSE in there might be wrong because the Bible didn't really "mean" to teach it?