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Author Topic: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists  (Read 29246 times)

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Offline Marion

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Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
« Reply #180 on: August 26, 2021, 10:33:24 PM »
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  • Knowledge from reason and the natural world is still truth.

    Indeed. But please, your own boss, Stephen Hawking, said that all his "knowledge from reason and the natural world" is based on Friedmann's second assumption, Friedmann's unproven second assumption. It's no "knowledge from reason and the natural world" at all.


    Geocentrism isn't the only obsolete notion commonly held by the ancient world.

    It's been declared "obsolete" because Hawking et al. don't like it.



    Don't continue to present yourself as a fool. You try to defend your trade, but the Cardinals of your trade already admitted, that they've got no proof against the geocentrist position of the Church.
    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)

    Offline cassini

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    Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
    « Reply #181 on: August 27, 2021, 05:42:27 AM »
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  • You also get error if you wrongly interpret Scripture, whether the resulting errors are contrary to philosophy or science.

    Knowledge from reason and the natural world is still truth. We have that with us when we read Scripture, and it does put boundaries on interpreting Scripture. For example, we read in Genesis 3:9 that God was "walking in the garden", but I assume you don't take from that that God has legs and (literally) walks. No, we know from philosophy - natural reason - that God is not material, so we understand "walking in the garden" as a metaphor.

    Geocentrism isn't the only obsolete notion commonly held by the ancient world. Consider spontaneous generation. Scripture has passages consistent with this, and the Fathers support it. Does that mean we have to hold it? No. While the Scriptures use language consistent with spontaneous generation, they do not teach it ex professo. Likewise, very few (if any) of the Fathers explicitly teach spontaneous generation is a revealed truth; they believe it as the common science of the time. Someone who held spontaneous generation as a Scriptural truth NOW would, I think, fall under St. Augustine's warning above (even though St. Augustine himself seems to have believed in spontaneous generation in parts of his Literal Meaning of Genesis.)

    My point was to emphasise how the Earthmovers since Galileo in his Letters to Castelli and Christina use St Augustine and St Thomas Aquinas and even the now St Robert Bellarmine to support the old Pythagorean heresy defined and declared as such since 1616. I quoted St Augustine emphasising his geocentrism, and I have pointed out that St Thomas and other saints were biblical geocentrist:

    Andrew White writes: ‘This doctrine [of geocentrism] was of the highest respectability: it had been developed at a very early period, and had been elaborated until it accounted well for the apparent movements of the heavenly bodies; its final name, “Ptolemaic theory,” carried weight; and, having thus come from antiquity into the Christian world, St Clement of Alexandria demonstrated that the altar in the Jєωιѕн Tabernacle was “a symbol of the Earth placed in the middle of the universe:” nothing more was needed; the geocentric theory was fully adopted by the Church and universally held to agree with the letter and spirit of Scripture. Wrought into this foundation, and based upon it, there was developed in the Middle Ages, mainly out of fragments of Chaldean and other early theories preserved in the Hebrew Scriptures, a new sacred system of astronomy, which became one of the great treasures of the universal Church – the last word of revelation. Three great men mainly reared this structure. First was the unknown who gave to the world the treatises ascribed to Dionysius the Areopagite. It was unhesitatingly believed that these were the work of St Paul’s Athenian convert, and therefore virtually of St Paul himself. Though now known to be spurious, they were then considered a treasure of inspiration, and an emperor of the East sent them to an emperor of the West as the most worthy of gifts. In the ninth century they were widely circulated in Western Europe, and became a fruitful source of thought especially on the whole celestial hierarchy. Thus the old ideas of astronomy were vastly developed, and the heavenly hosts were classed and named in accordance with indications scattered through the sacred Scriptures.  
    ‘The next of these three great theologians was Peter Lombard, Professor at the University of Paris. About the middle of the twelfth century, he gave forth his collection of Sentences, or statements by the Fathers, and this remained until the end of the Middle Ages the universal manual of theology. In it was especially developed the theological view of man’s relation to the universe. The author tells the world: “Just as man is made for the sake of God – that is, that he may serve Him, - so the universe is made for the sake of man, that is, that it may serve him; therefore is man placed at the middle point of the universe that he may both serve and be served.” The vast significance of this view, and its power in resisting any real astronomical science, we shall see, especially in the time of Galileo. The great triad of thinkers culminated in St Thomas Aquinas – the sainted theologian, the glory of the mediaeval Church, the ‘Angelic Doctor,’ the most marvellous intellect between Aristotle and Newton; he to whom it was believed that an image of the crucified had spoken words praising his writings. Large of mind, strong, acute, yet just – even more than just – to his opponents, he gave forth, in the latter half of the thirteenth century, his Cyclopaedia of Theology, the Summa Theologica. In this St Thomas carried the sacred theory of the universe to its full development. With great power and clearness, he brought the whole vast system, material and spiritual, into its relations to God and man.

    Then there is the Council of Trent:

    ‘The sacred and holy, ecuмenical, and general Synod of Trent, - lawfully assembled in the Holy Ghost, the Same three legates of the Apostolic See presiding therein,  -the synod decrees that no one who relies on his own judgment in matters of faith and morals, which pertain to the building up of Christian doctrine, and that no one who distorts the Sacred Scripture according to his own opinions, shall dare to interpret the said Sacred Scripture contrary to that sense which is held by holy Mother Church, whose duty it is to judge regarding the true sense and interpretation of the Holy Scriptures, or even contrary to the unanimous consent of the Fathers, even though interpretations of this kind were never intended to be brought to light. Let those who shall oppose this be reported by their ordinaries and be punished with the penalties prescribed by law.’ -- (Denzinger – 783/786)

    Next is St Bellarmine;

    Second. I say that, as you know, the Council of Trent prohibits expounding the Scriptures contrary to the common agreement of the holy Fathers. And if Your Reverence would read not only the Fathers but also the commentaries of modern writers on Genesis, Psalms, Ecclesiastes and Josue, you would find that all agree in explaining literally (ad litteram) that the sun is in the heavens and moves swiftly around the Earth, and that the Earth is far from the heavens and stands immobile in the centre of the universe. Now consider whether in all prudence the Church could encourage giving to Scripture a sense contrary to the holy Fathers and all the Latin and Greek commentators. Nor may it be answered that this [geocentrism] is not a matter of faith, for if it is not a matter of faith from the point of view of the subject matter (ex parte objecti), it is a matter of faith on the part of the ones who have spoken (ex parte dicentis). It would be just as heretical to deny that Abraham had two sons and Jacob twelve, as it would be to deny the virgin birth of Christ, for both are declared by the Holy Ghost through the prophets and apostles.’ --- Letter to Foscarini, 1615 

    But then came Galileo with his Letters to Castelli and Christina and his Dialogue, mouthing all the stuff Stanley says above as though he knows more about how to read Scripture and its revelations than all the Fathers and popes who defended a geocentric revelation.

    But worst of all is that Fr Robinson SSPX, a so-called expert on Thomism, faith and science, with his book poisoning so many souls with his and its naturalism based on his FAITH in the Big Bang rather than the dogma of supernatural creation of all immediastely or over 6-days, complete in all its substance. No, not for them this faith, as they think human reason can do better that all the Fathers.  


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
    « Reply #182 on: August 27, 2021, 07:39:05 AM »
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  • Nor may it be answered that this [geocentrism] is not a matter of faith, for if it is not a matter of faith from the point of view of the subject matter (ex parte objecti), it is a matter of faith on the part of the ones who have spoken (ex parte dicentis). It would be just as heretical to deny that Abraham had two sons and Jacob twelve, as it would be to deny the virgin birth of Christ, for both are declared by the Holy Ghost through the prophets and apostles.’ --- Letter to Foscarini, 1615

    Fr. Robinson and all the "scientologists" who argue along the lines of "Sacred Scripture doesn't intend to teach about science" need to take this quote from St. Robert and meditate on it.  Even IF Sacred Scripture doesn't primarily intend to teach about creation, it's infallible when it does speak about nature, science, and creation ex parte dicentis ... because it's the Holy Ghost speaking.

    So, it's just as heretical to say that human beings have not been on the earth for only about 6,000 years as it would be to deny the Holy Trinity.

    Also, even though the created world is itself in nature, the act of creation came from outside of nature.  So even if science isn't the object of faith ex parte creaturae, it most certainly is ex parte Creatoris.

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
    « Reply #183 on: August 27, 2021, 08:39:49 AM »
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  • A silence... while Stanley consults with his science confessor, Fr. Paul.

    :popcorn:
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Comrade

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    Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
    « Reply #184 on: August 27, 2021, 11:32:11 AM »
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  • Fr. Robinson and all the "scientologists" who argue along the lines of "Sacred Scripture doesn't intend to teach about science" need to take this quote from St. Robert and meditate on it.  Even IF Sacred Scripture doesn't primarily intend to teach about creation, it's infallible when it does speak about nature, science, and creation ex parte dicentis ... because it's the Holy Ghost speaking.

    So, it's just as heretical to say that human beings have not been on the earth for only about 6,000 years as it would be to deny the Holy Trinity.

    Also, even though the created world is itself in nature, the act of creation came from outside of nature.  So even if science isn't the object of faith ex parte creaturae, it most certainly is ex parte Creatoris.
    Does the 6000 only come from genealogy described in Genesis? 

    While we wait for Stanley to respond, can any one anticipate the argument against the 6000 years of genealogy in Genesis?


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
    « Reply #185 on: August 27, 2021, 11:56:29 AM »
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  • Does the 6000 only come from genealogy described in Genesis?

    While we wait for Stanley to respond, can any one anticipate the argument against the 6000 years of genealogy in Genesis?

    Yes, it comes from the genealogy.  For instance, even historians place Abraham at about 2100 BC ... based on independent evidence.  Then in Genesis 11, you get the full genealogy from Shem (Noah's son) to Abraham.  And of course you get from Adam to Noah earlier in Genesis 5.  And Genesis tells how old the father was before giving birth to the son.  So it's pretty easy to reconstruct.

    Responses to this vary depending upon the degree of Modernism in the respondent.  Some would dismiss the genealogies as simply made up for entertainment purposes, and there never were an Adam and an Eve; they simply happened to evolve from monkeys at the exact same time and place so they could reproduce.  Then you might have some claims that there were huge gaps in the genealogy.  So when Genesis says that X begat Y, well, that could in fact be a great-great-great-great-great grandfather relationship.  Of course, that's contradicted by the fact that Sacred Scripture gives the age at which the father begat the son.

    Just read Genesis 5 and then Genesis 11.  It clearly says how old each father was when he begat the son.  So the genealogy gap argument is an epic fail.

    You basically end up having to attribute error to Sacred Scripture.

    Offline Romulus

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    Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
    « Reply #186 on: August 27, 2021, 12:33:12 PM »
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  • I think someone should tell Father Robinson to read the Roman Martyrology for Christmas. Oh wait, its in his breviary that he has to read on that day.

    Offline cassini

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    Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
    « Reply #187 on: August 27, 2021, 12:50:01 PM »
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  • Does the 6000 only come from genealogy described in Genesis?

    While we wait for Stanley to respond, can any one anticipate the argument against the 6000 years of genealogy in Genesis?

    Blessed Katarina Emmerick (1774-1823) for example, the Augustinian nun, wrote:

    I saw these false computations of the pagan priests at the same time as I beheld Jesus Christ teaching on the Sabbath at Aruma. Jesus, speaking before the Pharisees of the Call of Abraham and his sojourn in Egypt, exposed the errors of the Egyptian calendar. He said the world had now existed 4028 years. When I heard Jesus say this, He was thirty-one years old.’

    Katarina’s age for Jesus Christ is the exactly the same as found in the Scriptures: Adam 5 days, Noah and the flood 1056 years (2941BC), Abraham 1950 after Creation (AC), Exodus 2540AC, birth of Jesus 3997AC, death of Jesus 4030AC at 33 years, fall of Jerusalem 4070AC, world on 2000AC was 5997 years old, 2021 years after Christ was the year 6,017AC and so on. 


    Offline Dankward

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    Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
    « Reply #188 on: August 27, 2021, 01:03:29 PM »
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  • The whole idea that we could figure out the age of stars, much less their distances, is just silly.  It’s a scientific fairy tale.  We can’t even get to the moon (that was faked to get funding for nasa, which used the trillions of dollars of the last decades to send up satellites for GPS and surveillance...the moon fakery funded the big brother system and modern war...all to bring about world govt and antichrist).  
    .
    These scientific fairly tales are just nonsense.  We can’t fathom the depths, brilliance, and wisdom of Gods creation, so the atheistic scientists lie that “we’ve got it all figured out”.   Remember the huge oil spill in Florida by BP year’s ago?  Scientists were screaming that the oceans and fish would be ruined.  Then what happened?  Some weird algae bacteria started eating all the oil and the crisis was over before it started.  No one saw that coming because few understand God’s brilliance.  He created the earth to work in perfect harmony, even on the natural level.  But modern science wants humanity to believe that we can “save” the planet.  What Pride!  What lies!  What silliness!
    Can you show that it is a fairytale, or cite sources? And I'd argue going to the moon is immensely more complex than measuring the distance to celestial objects. The first has probably been staged completely, while the latter has been worked on by brilliant minds since centuries. But yes of course, most modern scientists are arrogant atheists with a "we've got it all figured out" attitude.

    Also, the distance / age of stars is not the only evidence for an "old" Earth (old meaning evidently old, but the actual age as in years passed may be just 6,000). As I meantioned earlier in this thread, there's also ice layers that amount to hundreds of thousands of yearly season cycles, then there are sediment layers, trees that are up to 10,000 years old, etc.

    Offline cassini

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    Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
    « Reply #189 on: August 27, 2021, 02:20:12 PM »
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  • Fr. Robinson and all the "scientologists" who argue along the lines of "Sacred Scripture doesn't intend to teach about science" need to take this quote from St. Robert and meditate on it.  Even IF Sacred Scripture doesn't primarily intend to teach about creation, it's infallible when it does speak about nature, science, and creation ex parte dicentis ... because it's the Holy Ghost speaking.

    So, it's just as heretical to say that human beings have not been on the earth for only about 6,000 years as it would be to deny the Holy Trinity.

    Also, even though the created world is itself in nature, the act of creation came from outside of nature.  So even if science isn't the object of faith ex parte creaturae, it most certainly is ex parte Creatoris.

    Very well spotted Ladislaus, Bellarmine's theology on Biblical exegesis can be extended to everything in Scripture. All the popes defined that every word in Scripture is truth.

    But they all keep repeating St Augustine's who said that ‘the Holy Spirit, Who spoke by them, did not intend to teach men these things, that is, the essential nature of the universe.’ Now the ‘essential nature’ of the universe means ‘what causes it to do what it does,’ not how it moves, for we can confirm that with our own eyes? What causes the cosmic order is an ‘essential nature’ Scripture never tells us, a mystery mankind knows not either, except Fr Robinson and all the Newtonianians and Einsteinians like him. They know matter attracts matter and that is the 'essential nature' of the universe.

    The Galilean dogma ‘the Bible is not meant to teach us the things of nature,’ is an Earthmover invention and absolute nonsense. There are many places in Scripture where nature is demonstrated; like the stars are as numerous as grains of sand on Earth. Even facts of medical science are there, told many years before modern medicine confirmed these truths. When the Bible tells us God ordered the circuмcision of boys on the eight day after birth (Genesis 17:12 and Leviticus 12:2-3), was that not telling us a fact of nature given that science has now established that the eight day after birth is exactly the right time to perform this operation to avoid problems. Elsewhere we are told to wash our hands in running water to avoid contamination (Leviticus 15:13). Elsewhere, Genesis gives us the dimensions of Noah’s Ark, found to be the perfect measurements for such large barges even today. Does this not suggest there are ‘mundane things’ written in the Bible for readers to know? 

    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
    « Reply #190 on: August 27, 2021, 04:57:10 PM »
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  • Bellarmine's theology on Biblical exegesis can be extended to everything in Scripture. All the popes defined that every word in Scripture is truth.

    But they all keep repeating St Augustine's who said that ‘the Holy Spirit, Who spoke by them, did not intend to teach men these things, that is, the essential nature of the universe.’

    You don't like St. Augustine?

    Let's take a look at a more complete quote from St. Augustine (from Literal Meaning of Genesis, bk 2):
    Quote
    It is commonly asked what we have to believe about the form and shape of heaven according to Sacred Scripture. Many engage in lengthy discussions on these matters, but our writers [the sacred writers], with their greater prudence, have omitted them. Such subjects are of no profit for those who seek a blessed life, and, what is worse, they take up precious time that ought to be given to what is spiritually beneficial. What concern is it of mine whether heaven is a sphere and the earth is enclosed by it and suspended in the middle of the universe, or whether heaven like a disk above the earth covers it on one side? But the credibility of Scripture is at stake, and as I have indicated more than once, there is danger that a man uninstructed in divine revelation, discovering something in Scripture or hearing from it something that seems to be at variance with the knowledge that he has acquired, may withhold his assent in other matters where Scripture presents useful admonitions, narratives, or declarations. Hence, I must say briefly that in the matter of the shape of heaven the sacred writers knew the truth, but that the Spirit of God, who spoke through them, did not wish to teach men these facts that would be of no avail to their salvation.

    St. Augustine explicitly teaches that the movements and shape of heaven are NOT REVEALED truths.
    St. Augustine is the premier Western Father. With this quote goes any claim to your alleged "unanimous" teaching of the Fathers.
    So let us no further "they take up precious time that ought to be given to what is spiritually beneficial."

    And if that is not enough, the statement of 1820 should shut the case:
    Quote
    The Assessor of the Holy Office has referred the request of Giuseppe Settele, Professor of Optics and Astronomy at La Sapienza University, regarding permission to publish his work Elements of Astronomy in which he espouses the common opinion of the astronomers of our time regarding the earth’s daily and yearly motions, to His Holiness through Divine Providence, Pope Pius VII. Previously, His Holiness had referred this request to the Supreme Sacred Congregation and concurrently to the consideration of the Most Eminent and Most Reverend General Cardinal Inquisitor. His Holiness has decreed that no obstacles exist for those who sustain Copernicus’ affirmation regarding the earth’s movement in the manner in which it is affirmed today, even by Catholic authors. He has, moreover, suggested the insertion of several notations into this work, aimed at demonstrating that the above mentioned affirmation [of Copernicus], as it is has come to be understood, does not present any difficulties; difficulties that existed in times past, prior to the subsequent astronomical observations that have now occurred.



    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
    « Reply #191 on: August 27, 2021, 05:25:51 PM »
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  • Quote
    Hence, I must say briefly that in the matter of the shape of heaven the sacred writers knew the truth, but that the Spirit of God, who spoke through them, did not wish to teach men these facts that would be of no avail to their salvation.

    What St Augustine is saying is this:  Scripture did not intend to teach men EVERYTHING about history, science or physics.  So what Scripture says on these topics is not COMPLETE.  But Scripture is correct and infallible in what it does teach (i.e. specific facts).
    .
    Conclusion:  Scripture gives us facts which make up (as an example) 10% of the whole.  God left historians/scientists to explore the rest of the 90% of facts.  But that 90% cannot deny or contradict the 10% of Scripture.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
    « Reply #192 on: August 28, 2021, 07:36:31 AM »
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  • So, Stanley, do you believe that human beings have only been around for about 6,000 years +/- ?  If not, then how do you hold that opinion without attributing error to Sacred Scripture?  I'm not trying to pick a fight here, just curious about your answer.  From Modernists, I have heard the "gap" theory, that there were gaps in the geneaology, but Genesis 5 and 11 are very clear that X was N years of age when he gave birth to Y ... from Adam all the way to Abraham.  Then Abraham can be dated independently to about 2,000 B.C.

    Offline cassini

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    Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
    « Reply #193 on: August 28, 2021, 12:31:26 PM »
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  • Quote
    Hence, I must say briefly that in the matter of the shape of heaven the sacred writers knew the truth, but that the Spirit of God, who spoke through them, did not wish to teach men these facts that would be of no avail to their salvation.
    St. Augustine explicitly teaches that the movements and shape of heaven are NOT REVEALED truths.
    St. Augustine is the premier Western Father. With this quote goes any claim to your alleged "unanimous" teaching of the Fathers.
    So let us no further "they take up precious time that ought to be given to what is spiritually beneficial."


    How Stanley, can you expect anyone on this forum to take any more of your comments and replies seriously.

    You quote St Augustine writing about the SHAPE of the universe, and you then say he explicitly teaches that the movements and shape of heaven are NOT REVEALED truths. Where did the explicit MOVEMENT bit come from?

    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Fr Paul Robinson SSPX. v Young Earth Creationists
    « Reply #194 on: August 28, 2021, 02:42:27 PM »
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  • From shortly after the passage already quoted from St. Augustine:

    Quote
    Concerning the heaven, some of the brethren have enquired whether it is stationary or moving. If it is moving, they say, how is it a firmament? And if it is stationary, how do the heavenly bodies that are thought to be fixed in it travel from east to west, the more northerly performing smaller circles near the pole? So heaven is like a sphere, if there is another pole invisible to us, or like a disk, if there is no other axis. My reply is that a great deal of subtle and learned enquiry into these questions would be required to know which of these views is correct, but I have no time to go into these questions and discuss them. Neither have they time, those whom I wish to instruct for their own salvation and for the benefit of the Holy Church.

    Elsewhere in St. Augustine:

    Quote
    Anyone who invokes the authority of Scripture in opposition to what is clearly and conclusively established by reason, does not understand what they are doing. What they are opposing to the truth is not the meaning of Scripture, which they have failed to grasp, but their own view, which they have found not in the Scripture, but in themselves.

    I hope you can see the merit of St. Augustine's writings, at least today, on his feast day in the Western church.

    So, Stanley, do you believe that human beings have only been around for about 6,000 years +/- ?  If not, then how do you hold that opinion without attributing error to Sacred Scripture?  I'm not trying to pick a fight here, just curious about your answer.  
    I'm for an old earth, but I would agree something unique happened about 6-7k years ago, the start of recorded history. That could be the time of Adam and Eve, and any earlier hominids (neanderthal, denisovan) lacked rational souls.

    But if someone showed Adam and Eve were earlier, we would need to say we've misunderstood something about the genealogies (to paraphrase St. Robert). What that might be is not my bailiwick.