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Author Topic: Fr Ortz Evaluation of Fr Pfeiffers visit to Australia  (Read 2658 times)

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Offline Nadir

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Fr Ortz Evaluation of Fr Pfeiffers visit to Australia
« on: April 27, 2013, 09:53:33 PM »
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  • By email from Fr Ortiz:

    Quote
    Dear Faithful,

    I take this opportunity to thank you all for your response and the excellent organization of Fr Joseph Pfeiffer's visit.

    Despite his busy schedule traveling everywhere around the world, Father immediately accepted my invitation to go to Australia to support you in the defense of the Catholic Faith.

    Your answer to this visit went beyond our expectations... because, a part from a few of you with whom I was in contact these last months, I didn't know that there were so many others behind! May God bless you for your courage in front of many obstacles and for your commitment to the Resistance.

    Father Pfeiffer told me that he was very much pleased and edified of what he saw in Australia. He was finally able to visit Sydney, Brisbane, Melbourne, Streaky Bay (SA) and Adelaide.

    Despite of the diversity of places and the different attendances he found in your country, Father saw always the same eager desire to remain faithful to the legacy of Archb. Lefebvre and to the founding principles of the Society of St Pius X.

    Now we know that Australia is another important front in the combat for what we have fought in the past years: to remain faithful to Tradition without compromising.

    Don't be afraid of reprisals from neo-SSPX pastors...

    Father Pfeiffer is planning to send regularly to Australia a Resistance priest, and I also want to be one of them.

    And as I celebrated a Mass for the success of this visit before, I will celebrate another one tomorrow to give thanks to Our Lord and His Holy Mother for its success.

    It's sad to see that some priests in the SSPX, in different degrees, are compromising with the sell-out set up by Bp. Fellay.

    So, the danger is not yet over, but on the contrary it's worsening. New docuмents came to light recently, like the DOCTRINAL PREAMBLE of April 15, 2012,  carrying the proof that Bp Fellay has really gone too far in his concessions to the Modernist Rome concerning matters of doctrine.

    What we need to prove here is not that Bp Fellay has said heresies... but more subtly, that he's not condemning error being his duty to do so, and particularly condemning the most monstrous error in Church's history, Modernism.

    In this Doctrinal Preamble, he clearly refuses to condemn the main errors of Vatican II, he affirms the legitimacy of the Novus Ordo and finally accepts the New Canon Law.

    All these three elements, against which we have being fighting for some many years, are explicitly accepted in this docuмent!

    Please find attached an excellent study on the Doctrinal Preamble, which I recommend you TO READ IT AND TO GIVE AROUND COPIES.

    We fear that something even worse will come to light very soon : the DOCTRINAL DECLARATION, which the last General Chapter (July 2012) asked Bp. Fellay to redact, after the rejection by Rome, for "political" reasons, of Bp. Fellay's Doctrinal Preamble in June.

    As you can see, the main issue in our combat is about FAITH.

    We have a double duty towards Faith: to profess it and to defend it.

    The defense is always characterized by the condemnation of errors, which is precisely what the leaders of the SSPX are not doing, as in the past.
    This is a characterized sin of omission.

    Remain "steadfast in the Faith" (St Peter).

    Keep united organizing some meetings in your houses, praying, deepening your faith, and most of all in mutual charity.

    God bless you all.

    Fr. Juan C. Ortiz

    P.S.: Pass around this message to the other faithful.


    Attachments will follow. Thank God for Fr Ortiz and pray for him as he prays for and inspires us.
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.


    Offline Nadir

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    Fr Ortz Evaluation of Fr Pfeiffers visit to Australia
    « Reply #1 on: April 27, 2013, 10:00:46 PM »
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  • Attached to Fr Ortiz' email:

    Quote
    Bishop Fellay’s Doctrinal Preamble
       
    It seems necessary to comment on the April 15th, 2012 Doctrinal Preamble proposed by His Excellency Bishop B. Fellay, Superior General of the SSPX, to Cardinal Levada. It was a secret for almost a year and was finally made public this past few weeks. This version of the Doctrinal Preamble met strong protests at the General Chapter. Consequently Bishop Fellay withdrew it without however repudiating it. This text consequently gives us an idea of the concessions, which Bishop Fellay would agree to concede, should he be allowed to do so.

    As a matter of fact, Bishop Fellay seems to accept to some extent:
    1.- Vatican II
    2.- the N.O.M.
    3.- the New Code of Canon Law.

    The Council

    “II.- We declare that we accept the teachings of the Magisterium of the Church in the substance of Faith and Morals, adhering to each doctrinal affirmation in the required degree, according to the doctrine contained in No. 25 of the dogmatic constitution Lumen Gentium of the Second Vatican Council. (1)”

    “(1) Cf. the new formula for the Profession of Faith and the Oath of Fidelity for assuming a charge exercised in the name of the Church, 1989; cf. Code of Canon Law, canon 749, 750, §2; 752; CCEO canon 597; 598, 1 & 2; 599.”

    This profession of faith says: “I also adhere with religious obedience of will and faith to the doctrines which, either the Roman Pontiff, or the college of bishops, pronounce when exercising an authentic magisterium, even if they have no intention of proclaiming them in a definitive act.” This profession of faith is preceded by an introduction explaining the meaning of the said profession: “It consequently proved essential to prepare adjusted texts in order to update them as far as their style and their contents were concerned and attune them with the teachings of Vatican II and docuмents developing them.”

    This is Archbishop Lefebvre’s comments about this docuмent issued by Cardinal Ratzinger: “The errors of the Council and its reforms remain the official norm that has been confirmed by Cardinal Ratzinger’s March 1989 profession of faith”. (Abp. Lefebvre, Spiritual Journey)

    “The new profession of faith which was drafted by Cardinal Ratzinger explicitly includes the acceptance of the Council and its consequences. It is the Council and its consequences, which have destroyed the Holy Mass, which have destroyed our Faith, which have destroyed catechisms and the reign of Our Lord Jesus Christ over civil societies. How could we accept this! [...] We have to keep the Catholic Faith and protect it by all possible means.” (Abp. Lefebvre, Le Bourget, November 19th, 1989)

    “This is leading us to a contradiction since, since at the same time as Rome gives to the Fraternity of St Peter, as an example, or to Le Barroux Abbey or some other group, an authorisation to say the traditional Mass, at the same time they ask young priests to sign a profession of faith in which they accept the spirit of the Council. This is a contradiction: the spirit of the Council is expressed in the New Mass. How can one wish to keep the Traditional Mass and accept the spirit that destroys the Traditional mass? This is a total self-contradiction. One day, slowly, they will demand from those to whom they have granted the Mass of St Pius V, the Traditional Mass, that they also accept the New Mass. And they will just say that this is only complying with what they have signed, since they have signed that they accept the spirit of the Council and the Council’s reforms. One just cannot place himself in such a contradictory situation, in such an incredible non sequitur. This is quite an uncomfortable situation. This is what makes things so difficulty for these groups, which have signed this: it is a dead end for them.” (Abp. Lefebvre, Friedrichshafen homily, April 29th, 1990)

    “III, 1.- We declare that we accept the doctrine regarding the Roman Pontiff and regarding the college of bishops, with the Pope as its head, which is taught by the dogmatic constitution Pastor Aeternus of Vatican I and by the Dogmatic Constitution Lumen Gentium of Vatican II, chapter 3 (De constitutione hierarchica Ecclesiae et in specie de Episcopatu), explained and interpreted by the nota explicativa praevia in this same chapter.”

    “III, 3.- Tradition is the living transmission of revelation ‘usque as nos’ and the Church in its doctrine, in its life and in its liturgy perpetuates and transmits to all generations what this is and what She believes. Tradition progresses in the Church with the assistance of the Holy Ghost, not as a contrary novelty, but through a better understanding of the Deposit of the Faith.”

    There is a contradiction between these two sentences, inasmuch as the expression “living” has precisely been constantly used by the Modernists in order to imply their doctrinal evolutionism and their “contrary novelties”.

    “III, 4.- The entire tradition of Catholic Faith must be the criterion and guide in understanding the teaching of the Second Vatican Council, which, in turn, enlightens - in other words deepens and subsequently makes explicit - certain aspects of the life and doctrine of the Church implicitly present within itself or not yet conceptually formulated (8).”

    “(8) For example, like the teaching on the sacraments and the episcopacy in Lumen Gentium, No. 21.”

    This means that not only the Council in the light of Tradition, but also Tradition in the light of the Council.

    To say that the Second Vatican Council “in turn, enlightens – in other words deepens and subsequently makes explicit – certain aspects of the life and doctrine of the Church implicitly present within itself or not yet conceptually formulated” is absurd as far as it flatly contradicts a number of them.

    “III, 5.- The affirmations of the Second Vatican Council and of the later Pontifical Magisterium relating to the relationship between the Church and the non-Catholic Christian confessions, as well as the social duty of religion and the right to religious liberty, whose formulation is with difficulty reconcilable with prior doctrinal affirmations from the Magisterium, (1) must be understood in the light of the whole, uninterrupted Tradition, in a manner coherent with the truths previously taught by the Magisterium of the Church, (2) without accepting any interpretation of these affirmations whatsoever that would expose Catholic doctrine to opposition or rupture with Tradition and with this Magisterium.”

    Bp. Williamson, who used to be Bp. Fellay’s professor, explains:
    The first part here (1) is perfectly true, so long as it means that any Conciliar novelty “difficult to reconcile” will be flatly rejected if it objectively contradicts previous Church teaching. But (1) is directly contradicted by (2) when (2) says that no Conciliar novelty may be “interpreted” as being in rupture with Tradition. It is as though one said that all football teams must wear blue shirts, but football team shirts of any other colour are all to be interpreted as being nothing other than blue! What nonsense! But it is pure “hermeneutic of continuity”. (Eleison No. 300 and Open Letter to the Priests of the Priestly Society of St Pius X of Maunday Thursday 2013 by Bp. Williamson)

    The Mass

    “III, 7.- We declare that we recognise the validity of the sacrifice of the Mass and the Sacraments celebrated with the intention to do what the Church does according to the rites indicated in the typical editions of the Roman Missal and the Sacramentary Rituals legitimately promulgated by Popes Paul VI and John-Paul II.”

    Archbishop Lefebvre said that it could be valid, but that it was nevertheless dangerous since it furthers heresy (favens haeresim). As Fr. de La Rocque explained in his two conferences of May 12th and 18th, 2012 on the Roman doctrinal discussions, to acknowledge the validity of the N.O.M. without mentioning that it is dangerous would be hypocritical and an unacceptable mental reservation.

    Moreover, this “legitimately promulgated” expression has always been disputed, and not only in traditional circles. In his editorial to the Friends and Benefactors of the French District, Fr. de Cacqueray wrote: “The new Mass can in no way be pleasing to God because it is misleading, harmful and ambiguous”.
    It just cannot be enforced by a law as such in the whole Church. As a matter of fact the purpose the liturgical law is to serve with authority the common good of the Church and all that is required. Paul VI’s new Mass being short of this cannot be supported by a law: it is not only evil, it is illegitimate, despite the apparent lawfulness it was enwrapped with and still is (Fr. Jean-Michel Gleize, Disputed Vatican II)
    http://www.laportelatine.org/district/france/bo/lab80_130103/lab80_130103.php

    The Novus Ordo Missae, in particular, is far too dangerous for the Common Good of the Church to be regarded as a true law.

    The Canon Law

    “III, 8.- In following the guidelines laid out above (III,5), as well as Canon 21 of the Code of Canon Law, we promise to respect the common discipline of the Church and the ecclesiastical laws, especially those which are contained in the Code of Canon Law promulgated by John-Paul II (1983) and in the Code of Canon Law of the Oriental Churches promulgated by the same pontiff (1990), without prejudice to the discipline of the Society of Saint Pius X, by a special law.”

    Bp. Fellay accepts the new Code of Canon Law, “in the light of Tradition” (III, 5), while Abp. Lefebvre had declared “this Canon Law is unacceptable”. (COSPEC 99B, March 14th, 1983) For him it is more even harmful than the Council itself, since it puts into laws the letter and the spirit of Vatican II, going as far as ignoring important corrections like the Nota explicativa.

    In 1983, Archbishop Lefebvre, who had already progressively been disappointed by Modernistic texts from Pope John Paul II, was terribly shocked by the new Code of Canon Law converting into laws the deviations of the Council. » (La Porte Latine, quoted by Avec l’Immaculée:
    http://aveclimmaculee.blogspot.jp/2013/03/i-quelques-citations-de-ou-sur-mgr.html)

    “Our concern became even more vehement with the aberrations of the new Code of Canon Law, not to say its heresies.” (An Open Letter to Confused Catholics, chapter 21)

    “One discovers an entirely new conception of the Church.” (Conference, Turin, March 24th, 1984)

    “We can find in it the doctrine that was already suggested in the Lumen Gentium text of the Council, according to which the college of bishops united to the Pope holds the supreme power in the Church, and this in a regular and permanent way.” (An Open Letter to Confused Catholics, chapter 12)

    “This work, namely the Code, is in perfect accord with the nature of the Church, especially as has been proposed by the Second Vatican Council. Moreover, this new Code can be conceived as an effort to expose in canonical language this doctrine, i.e., conciliar Ecclesiology. The elements of this Ecclesiology are the following: Church = people of God; hierarchical authority = collegial service; Church = communion; and lastly the Church with Her duty to ecuмenism. Each one of these notions is ambiguous and will allow Protestant and Modernist errors to inspire from now on the legislation of the Church. It is the authority of the Pope and of the Bishops which is going to suffer; the distinction between the clergy and the laity will also diminish; the absolute and necessary character of the Catholic faith will also be extenuated to the profit of heresy and schism; and the fundamental realities of sin and grace will be worn down.” (Letter to Friends and Benefactors No. 24, March 1983)

    “Well, in the new Code of Canon Law there are two supreme powers in the Church: the supreme power of the Pope, and then of the Pope with the bishops. Consequently there are two ordinary subjects of this supreme and total power in the Church. It is exactly what the Nota explicativa had corrected during the Council. For, if the bishops have with the Pope and not without the Pope the supreme power in the Church, they have a right to demand to exert this power which is theirs with the Pope and to demand from the Pope that they may participate in the exercise of this power over the Universal Church. This never ever happened in Church history. They exercised this power when the Pope summoned them in a council and allowed them to participate in his power in the council. It is in fact because they were meeting with the Pope that they then by an extraordinary act [...] had this power over the Universal Church and not in an ordinary manner! Consequently this is restricting the power of the Pope. This means that in practice they are not taking into account the Nota explicativa of the Council in the new Canon Law. That had been a small revolution in the Council. And the Pope felt obliged to intervene and to correct what was in that decree of the Church and adjust it according to the faith of the Church. These are examples I am giving you, which matter to our faith.” (COSPEC 100A, May 20th, 1983)

    “The faithful are those who, inasmuch as they are incorporated in Christ by baptism are constituted as the people of God, and who for this reason, having been made partakers in their manner in the priestly, prophetic and royal functions of Christ, are called to exercise the mission that God entrusted to the Church to accomplish in the world. [...] There is no longer any clergy. What, then, happens to the clergy? [...] It is consequently easy to understand that this is the ruin of the priesthood and the laicization of the Church. [...] This is precisely what Luther and the Protestants did, laicizing the priesthood. It is consequently very serious.” (Conference, Turin, March 24th, 1984)

    “You know that the new Code of Canon Law permits a priest to give Communion to a Protestant. (Canon 844) It is what they call Eucharistic hospitality. These are Protestants who remain protestants and do not convert. This is directly opposed to the Faith. For the Sacrament of the Eucharist is precisely the sacrament of the unity of the Faith. To give Communion to a Protestant is to rupture the Faith and its unity.” The Protestants must make “an abjuration in order to remove this obex [obstacle] that their baptism might bear fruit. After this, grace will remain in their souls and they will be worthy of salvation. But, as long as they remain attached to their errors and deny truths which are part of the faith, they cannot receive grace.” (Conference, Turin, March 24th, 1984)

    “What is the object or aim of canon law, of the fundamental canonical laws? You have two books, which you may read on that subject: De norme generales juris canonici. Two volumes by Professor Michiels, a Franciscan, which give the answer – the general norms of law – and consequently the foundations of the ecclesiastical law itself, and of canon law. Well, he says it openly: Ut patet fondamentum vitae supernaturalis ecclesiae curae et potestati concreditae, est fides. This aim is the faith. [...] Take as an example the fact that the new canon law no longer requests in a Protestant Catholic mixed marriage to commit in writing to the Catholic baptism of the children, this a serious violation of the faith, a serious violation of the faith.” (COSPEC 100A, May 20th, 1983) “Then what should we think about this? – Well, this Code of Canon Law is unacceptable.” (COSPEC 99B, March 14th, 1983)

    This is certainly enough to prove that this Declaration or Doctrinal Preamble of April 15th, 2012 by Bishop Fellay is blatantly at variance and even in contradiction with the line of the Archbishop about the Council, the Mass and the Canon Law. He was however just about to sign an agreement on this basis on June 13th, 2012, if it had not been rejected by Cardinal Levada – as not enough –, a refusal confirmed by the Pope’s letter to Bishop Fellay dated June 30th.

    So despite the fact that the Superior General has been roaming all-over the world these past eight months in order to reassure people that he was not going to “sell” the Society, one may still be somewhat sceptical. This docuмent is evidence that the worst so-called “gossips” were not that wrong.
    Top Priority

    The top priority to “overcome the crisis” clearly is not to “overcome our abnormal canonical status”, of which the Archbishop was saying that it is “secondary”, but to keep our Catholic Faith, without yielding to Liberal pressures, which would make us lose it. Let us always remember these words from the Archbishop during a spiritual conference to his seminarians on December 21st, 1984, which, after unsuccessfully trying the impossible in May 1988, he supported until his death:

    “Some are prepared to sacrifice the fight for the faith by saying: ‘Let us first re-enter the Church! Let us first do everything to integrate the official, public structure of the Church. Let us be silent about dogmatic issues. Let us be silent about the malice of the [New] Mass. Let us keep quiet over the issues of religious freedom, Human Rights, ecuмenism. And, once we are inside the Church, we will be able to do this, we will be able to achieve that...’ That's absolutely false! You don't enter into a structure, under superiors, by claiming that you will overthrow everything as soon as you are inside, whereas they have all the means to suppress us! They have all the authority.

    “What matters to us first and foremost is to maintain the Catholic Faith. That's what we are fighting for. So, the canonical issue, this purely public and exterior issue in the Church, is secondary. What matters is to stay within the Church... inside the Church, in other words, in the Catholic Faith of all time, in the true priesthood, in the true Mass, in the true sacraments, and the same catechism, with the same Bible. That's what matters to us. That's what the Church is. Public recognition is a secondary issue. Thus, we should not seek what is secondary by losing what is primary, by losing what is the primary goal of our fight!

    “We cannot place ourselves under an authority whose ideas are liberal and who little by little would condemn us, by the logic of the thing, to accept these liberal ideas and all the consequences of these liberal ideas, which are the new Mass, changes in the liturgy, changes in the Bible, changes in catechism, all these changes...”
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.


    Offline Nadir

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    Fr Ortz Evaluation of Fr Pfeiffers visit to Australia
    « Reply #2 on: April 28, 2013, 04:42:08 AM »
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  • I posted these docments together because they arrived on the same email.

    However I now realise that the second one, Fr Ortiz' "comment on the April 15th, 2012 Doctrinal Preamble proposed by His Excellency Bishop B. Fellay, Superior General of the SSPX, to Cardinal Levada", is worthy of its own post and should not be buried in the Australia Fr Pfeiffer report.

    So I will start a new thread for that purpose.

    Meanwhile I would love to hear a report from anyone who was present at Fr Pfeiffer's meetings at any of those Australian cities, as no member of our family was able to attend.
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    Offline Nadir

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    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    Offline Nadir

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    Fr Ortz Evaluation of Fr Pfeiffers visit to Australia
    « Reply #4 on: April 28, 2013, 03:43:17 PM »
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  • Fr Ortiz said:
    Quote
    Would you please correct that I'm NOT the author of the study on the Doctrinal Preamble? Thanks
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Fr Ortz Evaluation of Fr Pfeiffers visit to Australia
    « Reply #5 on: May 01, 2013, 09:36:14 AM »
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  • I have a question regarding the first post:


    Quote

    So, the danger is not yet over, but on the contrary it's worsening. New docuмents came to light recently, like the DOCTRINAL PREAMBLE of April 15, 2012,  carrying the proof that Bp Fellay has really gone too far in his concessions to the Modernist Rome concerning matters of doctrine.

    What we need to prove here is not that Bp Fellay has said heresies... but more subtly, that he's not condemning error being his duty to do so, and particularly condemning the most monstrous error in Church's history, Modernism.

    In this Doctrinal Preamble, he clearly refuses to condemn the main errors of Vatican II, he affirms the legitimacy of the Novus Ordo and finally accepts the New Canon Law.

    All these three elements, against which we have being fighting for some many years, are explicitly accepted in this docuмent!

    Please find attached an excellent study on the Doctrinal Preamble, which I recommend you TO READ IT AND TO GIVE AROUND COPIES.

    We fear that something even worse will come to light very soon : the DOCTRINAL DECLARATION, which the last General Chapter (July 2012) asked Bp. Fellay to redact, after the rejection by Rome, for "political" reasons, of Bp. Fellay's Doctrinal Preamble in June.




    Fr. appears to be making a distinction between the Doctrinal Declaration
    and the Doctrinal Preamble.  These two terms have been used to describe
    the same docuмent, that of April 15th, 2012, which Fr. Chazal wisely refers to
    as the AFD (April Fifteenth Declaration).  

    What is it that he says "We fear that something even worse will come to light
    very soon : the DOCTRINAL DECLARATION," if that is somehow not the
    same as "Bp. Fellay's Doctrinal Preamble in June?"

    Alternatively, he might be talking about the same docuмent, such as this:

    In June, B. Fellay's Doctrinal Preamble (AFD) was rejected by Rome.  Then,
    at the last General Chapter (July 2012), the Chapter asked B. Fellay to
    redact his DOCTRINAL DECLARATION (AFD), which is another name for the
    same docuмent (AFD).  But he instead went to great pains to set it aside, as
    if to pretend it is not important, and at the same time failed to redact it as
    the Chapter had asked him to do.  We fear that when this DOCTRINAL
    DECLARATION (AFD) will come to light very soon, it will be even worse than
    it presently appears, because of the fact that B. Fellay has not redacted it.

    There are other ways of interpreting this paragraph in bold, above, but
    I thought perhaps Fr. Ortiz would like to clarify so we don't get mixed up
    on this question.

    Thanks.


    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline Marlelar

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    Fr Ortz Evaluation of Fr Pfeiffers visit to Australia
    « Reply #6 on: May 01, 2013, 02:07:32 PM »
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  • If Fr. Ortiz was not the author of the "commentary" who was the author?

    Marsha

    Offline Elizabeth

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    Fr Ortz Evaluation of Fr Pfeiffers visit to Australia
    « Reply #7 on: May 01, 2013, 03:07:23 PM »
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  • Quote from: Nadir
    Thank God for Fr Ortiz and pray for him as he prays for and inspires us.


    He is a magnificent confessor, may God bless his soul.


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Fr Ortz Evaluation of Fr Pfeiffers visit to Australia
    « Reply #8 on: May 01, 2013, 09:28:43 PM »
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  • Quote from: Marlelar
    If Fr. Ortiz was not the author of the "commentary" who was the author?

    Marsha


    We would like to circulate this commentary but it's going to be less credible
    with no author attached.  Perhaps saying Fr. Ortz recommends it is all we can
    do so far, but that may not be as convincing. You know how the Accordistas
    have been trained to question any writing that has no ID.  

    It's a bit unique, because in the past there have been pen names and ghost
    writers whose reality was not a great bone of contention.  Some women have
    used male-sounding names to avoid the stigma of discrimination directed at
    their sex.  But here we are with probably a priest, who doesn't want to suffer
    the reprisals that will no doubt come with his claim of authorship.  Now, that's
    a point that carries some baggage.  

    When in the history of the Church has there been a time when good priests,
    writing good commentary that rightly questions particular abuses going on
    in the Church, have been reluctant to attach their names to their writings
    for fear of punishments from their own superiors?  

    If anyone knows of some such times, it seems to me that this is a good
    time to make a quick list of them, and let's start paying attention to what
    circuмstances might otherwise be similar between our own time and theirs.



    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Fr Ortz Evaluation of Fr Pfeiffers visit to Australia
    « Reply #9 on: May 01, 2013, 09:42:52 PM »
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  • Quote from: Nadir
    I posted these docments together because they arrived on the same email.

    However I now realise that the second one, Fr Ortiz' "comment on the April 15th, 2012 Doctrinal Preamble proposed by His Excellency Bishop B. Fellay, Superior General of the SSPX, to Cardinal Levada", is worthy of its own post and should not be buried in the Australia Fr Pfeiffer report.

    So I will start a new thread for that purpose.

    Meanwhile I would love to hear a report from anyone who was present at Fr Pfeiffer's meetings at any of those Australian cities, as no member of our family was able to attend.. It's here.



    FWIW I went to that thread, and posted a new format, here, for the
    commentary that I think is easier to read, for I set the AFD up in
    "quote" boxes so a reader can easily see whose work he's reading as he
    moves down the page.  

    I'd like to see some constructive criticism of my idea, because I want to
    provide a .doc file for members to download, and I want it to be presentable
    with all the details that make such things worth printing out and passing
    around.  No typos. No grammar snags. Bold where it belongs. Punctuation
    in place and not out of place -- things like that (as Fr. Schell used to say).

    I invite ideas for how to cope with the lack of an author's name, as well.  

    Please, if you have an idea, don't hesitate to share it!!



    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline donkath

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    Fr Ortz Evaluation of Fr Pfeiffers visit to Australia
    « Reply #10 on: May 08, 2013, 05:20:10 AM »
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  • Quote from: Nadir
    I posted these docments together because they arrived on the same email.

    However I now realise that the second one, Fr Ortiz' "comment on the April 15th, 2012 Doctrinal Preamble proposed by His Excellency Bishop B. Fellay, Superior General of the SSPX, to Cardinal Levada", is worthy of its own post and should not be buried in the Australia Fr Pfeiffer report.

    So I will start a new thread for that purpose.

    Meanwhile I would love to hear a report from anyone who was present at Fr Pfeiffer's meetings at any of those Australian cities, as no member of our family was able to attend.


    My son and I attended Fr. P's talk in Pakenham, Vic. about two weeks ago.  There were about 30 people present from Tynong SSPX.  Some of them assisted at his Mass prior to the meeting.  Last Sunday, however, a priest at Corpus Christi gave a rather frightening sermon after which many people are closing ranks against any suspect that attended the meeting, or promoted 'resistance' literature.  I made a brief summation of how it appeared to me.

    Father -
    i)   gave his personal view on what he considered to be correct community behaviour.
    He listed ten points, then elaborated on each point with additional points.  I was horrified by all the adjectives used to describe his judgement of the behaviour of the 'dissidents.'  I cannot remember them because they were so horrible.  I actually tremble when I try to remember them.
    ii)   did not clearly identify what seems to be troubling him, but spoke obliquely about
    'dissidents'.
    iii)   gave this view from the pulpit as priest to a captive audience quoting passages from selected saints.  Generally they amounted to being 'obedient'.
    iv)   spoke down to us in the pews - laypeople not under the vow of obedience.

    In sum, he presented a non-religious view of correct 'community' behaviour but as a PRIEST instructing a religious community (if you can make sense of that.)

    Four questions came to mind.

    (a)   Specifically, what particular community was he addressing?
    (b)   Lay people cannot listen to both sides of an argument?
    (c)   Afraid to test the spirit?
    (d)   Blind obedience!
     
                                      BRIEF  HISTORY

    Bishop Fellay -
    sacked a fellow-bishop (How does one sack a Bishop?)
    sacked good priests (how does one sack good priests?)

    I had a conversation with a student (about l4 years old) a few weeks ago.   She said they have to answer questions on evolution as fact if they want to pass their State exams.   That the priests teach them the truth in private.

    A lovely middle aged couple who have hosted priests in their home was phoned by one such priest who had gone to a different State.  He said if they attended the meeting their friendship would be finished.  Then he added that he would also refuse them Communion if the situation arose.   The gentle wife had to try to get her head around this call as and when it came.  She though he was ringing up as his usual friendly self.

    When I began to try to come to grips with this whole thing it occurred to me that the priest could have invited 'suspected persons' around for a cup of tea and we could have talked it all over openly and in friendliness with him.  Because you see, layfolk just see priest against priest, bishop against bishop, post-conciliar popes against pre-conciliar popes.  Surely, if given the chance, this could have been put to Father X because, after all, it is the salvation of souls that is at issue here.

    A quote from Christian Order (November 2012) came to mind..

    "How very many Catholics living amongst the ruins of the Desolate City of God choose to 'not know' in order to live without fuss in compromised "serenity," adopting the "official (revolutionary) version of things" and becoming part of the effete "connective fabric" of post-conciliar life.   Contrariwise, how very few, especiallly clerics, possess the faith and grace that enabled the saints and martyrs to live beyond such worldly parameters."




    .  
    "In His wisdom," says St. Gregory, "almighty God preferred rather to bring good out of evil than never allow evil to occur."


    Offline Marlelar

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    Fr Ortz Evaluation of Fr Pfeiffers visit to Australia
    « Reply #11 on: May 08, 2013, 05:56:35 PM »
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  • What a terrible state of affairs we are in when priests start threatening people.  How Our Lady must weep over this.
     
    Holy Mary Mother of God
    Pray for us who have recourse to Thee.


     :pray:

    Offline Marlelar

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    Fr Ortz Evaluation of Fr Pfeiffers visit to Australia
    « Reply #12 on: May 08, 2013, 05:58:10 PM »
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  • By the way where is Fr. Ortiz stationed?

    Marsha

    Offline Nadir

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    Fr Ortz Evaluation of Fr Pfeiffers visit to Australia
    « Reply #13 on: May 08, 2013, 09:57:56 PM »
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  • Quote from: Marlelar
    By the way where is Fr. Ortiz stationed? Marsha


    I have been told that he is at present with Fr. Ringrose.
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    Offline Nadir

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    Fr Ortz Evaluation of Fr Pfeiffers visit to Australia
    « Reply #14 on: May 08, 2013, 10:17:35 PM »
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  • Quote from: donkath

    My son and I attended Fr. P's talk in Pakenham, Vic. about two weeks ago.  There were about 30 people present from Tynong SSPX.  Some of them assisted at his Mass prior to the meeting.  Last Sunday, however, a priest at Corpus Christi gave a rather frightening sermon after which many people are closing ranks against any suspect that attended the meeting, or promoted 'resistance' literature.  I made a brief summation of how it appeared to me.

    Father -
    i)   gave his personal view on what he considered to be correct community behaviour.
    He listed ten points, then elaborated on each point with additional points.  I was horrified by all the adjectives used to describe his judgement of the behaviour of the 'dissidents.'  I cannot remember them because they were so horrible.  I actually tremble when I try to remember them.
    ii)   did not clearly identify what seems to be troubling him, but spoke obliquely about 'dissidents'.
    iii)   gave this view from the pulpit as priest to a captive audience quoting passages from selected saints.  Generally they amounted to being 'obedient'.
    iv)   spoke down to us in the pews - laypeople not under the vow of obedience.

    In sum, he presented a non-religious view of correct 'community' behaviour but as a PRIEST instructing a religious community (if you can make sense of that.)

    Four questions came to mind.

    (a)   Specifically, what particular community was he addressing?
    (b)   Lay people cannot listen to both sides of an argument?
    (c)   Afraid to test the spirit?
    (d)   Blind obedience!
     
                                      BRIEF  HISTORY

    Bishop Fellay -
    sacked a fellow-bishop (How does one sack a Bishop?)
    sacked good priests (how does one sack good priests?)

    I had a conversation with a student (about l4 years old) a few weeks ago.   She said they have to answer questions on evolution as fact if they want to pass their State exams.   That the priests teach them the truth in private.

    A lovely middle aged couple who have hosted priests in their home was phoned by one such priest who had gone to a different State.  He said if they attended the meeting their friendship would be finished.  Then he added that he would also refuse them Communion if the situation arose.   The gentle wife had to try to get her head around this call as and when it came.  She though he was ringing up as his usual friendly self.

    When I began to try to come to grips with this whole thing it occurred to me that the priest could have invited 'suspected persons' around for a cup of tea and we could have talked it all over openly and in friendliness with him.  Because you see, layfolk just see priest against priest, bishop against bishop, post-conciliar popes against pre-conciliar popes.  Surely, if given the chance, this could have been put to Father X because, after all, it is the salvation of souls that is at issue here.

    A quote from Christian Order (November 2012) came to mind..

    "How very many Catholics living amongst the ruins of the Desolate City of God choose to 'not know' in order to live without fuss in compromised "serenity," adopting the "official (revolutionary) version of things" and becoming part of the effete "connective fabric" of post-conciliar life.   Contrariwise, how very few, especiallly clerics, possess the faith and grace that enabled the saints and martyrs to live beyond such worldly parameters."  


    Thank you so much, donkath, for your report of the reaction at Tynong to Fr Pfeiffer's visit. I find it very disturbing.

    I wonder, donkath, have you seen the topic of St Augustine's (Tynong) here?
    http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php/SSPX-school-says-its-dedicated-to-teaching-freedom-of-religion

    Imagine the viciousness manifested against that "lovely middle aged couple who have hosted priests in their home". What scandalous behaviour.

    Anyway, your response is much appreciated. I have managed to make contact with some of the Sydney folk.
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.