All dogmas are equally important

That is what I was saying Matthew. 

That is what I was saying Matthew.

I read a "not" in there for some reason. I apologize and stand corrected.
So at least you understand why I reacted the way I did! 

It is obvious and common sense that a 63 year interregnum -- with no end in sight -- would seem to falsify (if not make a mockery of) Christ's promise.

No - it is NOT obvious.

In fact, to say the "mouths of heretics" have taken over the Church would be to make a mockery of the promise. A promise that just maybe we don't fully understand.

How long can the Church last w/o a pope Matthew? Show us the definition please.

How low can we go (in terms of clergy)? Is it written there must always be "X" number of bishops/priests/dioceses?

I read a "not" in there for some reason. I apologize and stand corrected.
So at least you understand why I reacted the way I did!

NP, I reacted swiftly with sarcasm and I also apologize and have edited that out.

Those are MY questions. None of the Church Fathers or Doctors who spoke about this topic EVER envisaged a 67-year interregnum. Pius XII died in 1958.

But I'll give you the spoiler: THERE ISN'T ONE. That's why God has to intervene, see? It's NOT to be found in any ancient scrolls, dogmas, doctrines, or docuмents. It SIMPLY ISN'T THERE. We don't have the information or tools we need to solve this Crisis.

Well, I also am open to other possibilities past what I am able to discern. Such as, a "hidden" Pope "who has much to suffer". But holding straight 68 SVism isn't necessary to ascertain that the man right NOW isn't the Pope. I might not be able to be certain about John XXIII, but I think when the ink hit the paper it really was tacit consent to the heresies and little by little whoever did still have the faith - lost it by going along with the revolution. Some "resisted" and this helped them preserve their faith. But, "Dorothy we ain't in Kansas anymore." As the crisis has deepened to spiritually apocalyptic levels and the PUBLIC and MANIFEST evidence of their apostasy mounts to the heavens it is an infallible sign from God (I believe). He is speaking to us by allowing them to MANIFEST more and more -so soon their will be NO denying the truth for those of good will. God IS acting and has been the WHOLE TIME, God, give us eyes to see and ears to hear! If you want to keep resisting His voice in this - that is your call. you know that us fathers and husbands must give a strict account. So in that sense, I know you have a lot to "lose" for openly rejecting them as true Popes, and you honestly think/feel you are doing the best you should for YOUR family. But we have to have the strength of faith to watch them get butchered for Christ in front of us one-at-a-time and hold firm (by the grace of God). I don't think we will have that constancy given to us if we could not suffer the loss of earthly goods, relationships, and yes in some cases even the sacraments.

If that's what you say about the Crisis, then I know for a fact you are new to Tradition, and/or have a superficial grasp and understanding of it.

As for your armchair theology, I will decline. Greater minds than mine have tried to figure out the crisis AND FAILED. It's not gonna happen without God's help at this point. Count me out.

I'd rather go clip brush along my property fence line. At least then we end up with some cozy paths we can walk hidden behind brush and trees. It's good exercise.

Arguing about the Pope, on the other hand, is a complete waste of time. It changes nothing, creates needless division within Tradition, and there is no "answer key" or way to figure out if you're even objectively correct.

Nothing armchair about reading St. Francis de Sales, a Doctor of the Church, and subsequent approved Catholic works since 1870, saying a pope that is an explicit heretic automatically ceases to be pope. It's truth. Truth is important in and of itself. It's the path to be on even if you can't see around the next turn in the path.

Those are MY questions. None of the Church Fathers or Doctors who spoke about this topic EVER envisaged a 67-year interregnum. Pius XII died in 1958.

But I'll give you the spoiler: THERE ISN'T ONE. That's why God has to intervene, see? It's NOT to be found in any ancient scrolls, dogmas, doctrines, or docuмents. It SIMPLY ISN'T THERE. We don't have the information or tools we need to solve this Crisis.

Matthew, you are incorrect in your the bolded comment above. Here is one example from Gemini.


Which of the church fathers or doctors explain the 70 years of Jeremiah as a trial of the Church in the end times?

The Church Father and Doctor most renowned for specifically interpreting the Seventy Years of Babylonian Exile prophesied by Jeremiah as a profound trial, testing, and purifying period for the Church (or the People of God) is St. Augustine of Hippo.
He extensively dealt with this prophetic period in his writings, using it as a major historical example to develop his theology of the Church.

St. Augustine of Hippo (354–430 AD)

Augustine did not see the 70 years merely as a historical punishment for the nation of Judah, but as a typological and spiritual trial that prefigures the sufferings and testing of the Church throughout history.

1. The Seventy Years as a Figure of the Church's Earthly Pilgrimage

Augustine uses the exile as a key example when distinguishing between the City of God (Civitas Dei) and the Earthly City (Civitas Terrena).


The Church as a Pilgrim: The Church, the earthly manifestation of the City of God, is always in a state of exile and pilgrimage in the world, living among enemies (the City of Man/Earthly City). The Babylonian Exile perfectly illustrates this state of displacement, suffering, and longing for the true homeland (Heaven/the New Jerusalem).

• A Time of Testing: The 70 years represent the fixed, determined period of testing and tribulation that the People of God must endure before their ultimate deliverance and restoration. This is a period where faith is purged of worldly attachments.

2. The City of God Citation

In his magnum opus, De Civitate Dei (The City of God), Augustine cites Jeremiah's prophecy to make the point that the Church must expect a long period of suffering on earth:

"For [Jeremiah] foretold not only that the Jews would return from Babylon after seventy years, but also that, though the earthly Jerusalem was to be rebuilt, the most glorious liberty would remain for the future."
--- The City of God, Book XVIII, Chapter 35

Augustine here emphasizes that the literal restoration (the rebuilding of Jerusalem) was incomplete. The truerestoration is the liberation of the Church through Christ and the establishment of the heavenly City, making the 70 years a figure pointing to Christ's definitive victory over all worldly captivity.

3. Interpretation in Eschatology

Augustine also drew on the 70 years when interpreting the 70 Weeks of Years prophecy in Daniel, which is directly related to the 70 years of Jeremiah. He established the standard interpretation that these prophecies concern the entire period from the Exile up to the end of time and the establishment of Christ's Kingdom (the Church), viewing the whole time as a period of persecution and trial.

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Other Doctors

While other Church Fathers like St. Jerome extensively commented on Jeremiah and the historical aspect of the 70 years, St. Augustine is the one who most famously and systematically used the prophecy as a powerful allegorical and typological figure for the long and purifying trial of the Church on earth.