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Author Topic: Flat Earth is a Psyop  (Read 115928 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Flat Earth is a Psyop
« Reply #75 on: December 12, 2025, 03:50:03 PM »
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    • Quote from: SkidRowCatholic on December 12, 2025, 03:43:07 PM
    So "geocentric earth" being the key and I embrace that with all my heart, mind, and soul.
    The globe-earth model, as understood today, does not have a firmament.  This is anti-scripture and heresy.  I say "quasi-heresy" because only those who delve into this issue (which is complex) can be guilty of denying scripture.  Those who "don't care about the shape of the earth" aren't guilty. 

    Since you seem to care, then you'd have to believe in a globe-earth with a firmament (which model does not exist) and thus, you have no "working model" of the solar system, the same as FE.

    The point is,
    heliocentrism = 100% heresy.
    geocentrism = no working model.
    FE = no working model.

    There is no catholic working model.  But people are debating the issues and working towards it.  That's why it matters.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Flat Earth is a Psyop
    « Reply #76 on: December 12, 2025, 03:54:13 PM »
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    • Quote from: SkidRowCatholic on December 12, 2025, 03:48:25 PM
    May one disregard a morally certain conscience on a particular matter w/o sinning?

    If I am convicted in my conscience that "X" is a sin - even though it is no actual sin at all.

    But I do "X" anyway - is it a sin?
    Here's Matthew's explanation, again....

    Do you know what moral certainty even is? It means you have enough certainty to ACT upon. Human actions are moral actions (right or wrong). There are no "neutral" actions. Either an action is good (to various degrees) or bad (to various degrees). Wiping sweat off my brow would probably qualify as "good", albeit a very very slight good.

    Moral certainty is not to be confused with metaphysical certainty, or dogmatic certainty.

    If a man leers at my daughter, I can be "morally certain" he's up to no good and would take action accordingly (not let him close to my family, etc.) and I would do well in this.
    But it's theoretically possible he had a mental or physical disorder which made him APPEAR to be leering at my daughter, when he actually wasn't.
    But no matter, I had moral certainty -- enough to act upon.

    You can become convinced of whatever position you want -- but guess what? You can't judge other Catholics who disagree with you, as if you are "right" and they are "wrong". You can argue, sure, because only one of you can be objectively right. But unless you've been receiving visions and revelations from Heaven, I have just as much chance of being right as you.

    In short, you can't condemn, look down on, or disparage fellow Catholics who disagree with you on your opinions. You have no dogmatic certainty -- only enough for YOU PERSONALLY to act on, for you and your family. That is NOT enough to compel the consciences of others, or condemn others about.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Flat Earth is a Psyop
    « Reply #77 on: December 12, 2025, 04:02:55 PM »
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    • Quote from: SkidRowCatholic on December 12, 2025, 03:55:27 PM
    Weren't you just sh*tting all over another poster because he said FE didn't have a map (model) that worked? 
    Yes, because he was rejecting an idea because it wasn't "proven 100%".  In matters of science, theories are often accepted even if not 100%.

    Quote
    :facepalm:Well, that wouldn't be true now since you have introduced heresy into the mix. It could still be a sin of willful ignorance or negligence. I only see this as one-sided in favor of FEers.
    I pointed out the necessity for belief in the firmament, and globe-earther posted a picture from the 1400s where there is a globe earth with a firmament.  That's great.


    Quote
    The globers call you out for no model.

    You call them stupid and say a model isn't that important right now.
    We have to agree on concepts first.  We have to reject the modern cosmology (either helio or geo-centric) because both are anti-catholic.  The point is, catholics need to start over on a model and go back to the 1400-1500s when there were ACTUAL CATHOLIC SCIENTISTS who made maps/models.

    Quote
    Then you say the globers have no model therefore they are heretics.
    No, I say if globers believe in the modern-day-globe, this is believing in heresy, because the firmament is denied.

    Quote
    How is that working towards a consensus on a Catholic model?
    catholics need to start over on a model and go back to the 1400-1500s when there were ACTUAL CATHOLIC SCIENTISTS who made maps/models.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Flat Earth is a Psyop
    « Reply #78 on: December 12, 2025, 04:21:19 PM »
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    • Quote from: SkidRowCatholic on December 12, 2025, 04:16:21 PM
    If the man who appears to be the Roman Pontiff spreads false doctrines, doubtful sacraments, pernicious disciplines, and he performs heretical actions PUBLICLY - I would do well to consider him a non-Catholic heretic foreign to the Body of Christ and take action accordingly by having no communion with him whatsoever.

    But it is theoretically possible there were other reasons he did what he did; he was double, he was brain-washed with mind control, he was insane and out of his mind.

    But no matter, I had moral certainty - NOT only "enough" to act upon, but enough to COMPEL me to separate from his anti-communion in EVERYTHING.

    And because it is a PUBLIC matter that all can see MANIFESTLY I am COMPELLED to aid others to see and act as well according to the dictates of my conscience.
    Though condemnation is NOT warranted because of it's less-than dogmatic status. Compelling others is warranted. That is why it keeps coming up you know. It is NOT because there is some small subset of twisted people who make it their life's mission to force others to be dogmatic Sedes. It is because of THIS principle and the subject matter. It will keep coming up for as long as the crisis continues and the Vatican II church lives.

    The example is most wonderfully illustrated in the case of removing Nestorius' name from the Mass. The bishops fought over this for about a year with Saint Cyril taking the side of those who removed his name BEFORE an official condemnation and the Pope later praised that group for acting rightly. WHY - because they had MORAL CERTAINTY and they had to act.
    Let me know when you want to talk about FE.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Flat Earth is a Psyop
    « Reply #79 on: December 12, 2025, 04:36:03 PM »
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    • Quote from: SkidRowCatholic on December 12, 2025, 04:16:21 PM
    If the man who appears to be the Roman Pontiff spreads false doctrines, doubtful sacraments, pernicious disciplines, and he performs heretical actions PUBLICLY - I would do well to consider him a non-Catholic heretic foreign to the Body of Christ and take action accordingly by having no communion with him whatsoever.

    But it is theoretically possible there were other reasons he did what he did; he was double, he was brain-washed with mind control, he was insane and out of his mind.

    But no matter, I had moral certainty - NOT only "enough" to act upon, but enough to COMPEL me to separate from his anti-communion in EVERYTHING.

    And because it is a PUBLIC matter that all can see MANIFESTLY I am COMPELLED to aid others to see and act as well according to the dictates of my conscience.
    Though condemnation is NOT warranted because of it's less-than dogmatic status. Compelling others is warranted. That is why it keeps coming up you know. It is NOT because there is some small subset of twisted people who make it their life's mission to force others to be dogmatic Sedes. It is because of THIS principle and the subject matter. It will keep coming up for as long as the crisis continues and the Vatican II church lives.

    The example is most wonderfully illustrated in the case of removing Nestorius' name from the Mass. The bishops fought over this for about a year with Saint Cyril taking the side of those who removed his name BEFORE an official condemnation and the Pope later praised that group for acting rightly. WHY - because they had MORAL CERTAINTY and they had to act.
    The FE debate is similar, though not as important as the crisis in the church.

    The globe-model denies scripture, so I am compelled to reject it.  I accept a "form" of FE because it aligns with scripture.  I work to find a FE model that combines both globe/science and scripture/orthodoxy.  That work continues...  It's called the scientific method.
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    Offline Freind

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    Re: Flat Earth is a Psyop
    « Reply #80 on: December 12, 2025, 05:05:28 PM »
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    • Quote from: SkidRowCatholic on December 12, 2025, 03:18:37 PM
    Again, Moral certainty isn't dogma.

    Moral certainty doesn't cut it. Take note of the dogma of the Assumption, where the encyclical says:

    45. Hence if anyone, which God forbid, should dare willfully to deny or 
    to call into doubt that which we have defined, let him know that he has 
    fallen away completely from the divine and Catholic Faith.

    Person 1: "They found the remains of Christ's mother in Jerusalem."
    Person 2: "It cannot be, because the dogma of the Assumption means Our Lady's body is with her in heaven"
    Person 1: "Are your raising to a dogma that the body they found is not Christ's mother?"
    Person 2: "It's not a dogma, but it calls into question a dogma, so it is as CERTAIN and serious as a dogma to deny it is Christ's mother"

    This is the case with sedevacantists:
    R&R: "A pope approved of heresy at Vatican II for the whole Church"
    Sede: "A pope cannot approve of heresy to the whole Church"
    R&R: "Are you raising to a dogma that these men are not popes"
    Sede: "It's not a dogma, but it calls into question a dogma, so it is as CERTAIN and serious as a dogma to deny these men were/are true popes"
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    Offline Freind

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    Re: Flat Earth is a Psyop
    « Reply #81 on: December 12, 2025, 05:18:58 PM »
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    • Quote from: SkidRowCatholic on December 12, 2025, 05:16:28 PM
    But at the BARE MINIMUM how should one view and act towards the putative Popes is an issue that can be resolved by obeying one's moral convictions - that is the base. It comes first.

    Why does anyone convert to Catholicism?

    Is it because the Catholic Faith is CERTAIN (as well as Revealed by God of course)? Yes.

    But FIRST they had to have the moral certainty to ACT upon their convictions that it was certain.

    I'm talking about the objective, not subjective.
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    Offline Freind

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    Re: Flat Earth is a Psyop
    « Reply #82 on: December 12, 2025, 05:22:52 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on December 12, 2025, 03:50:03 PM
    The globe-earth model, as understood today, does not have a firmament.  This is anti-scripture and heresy.  I say "quasi-heresy" because only those who delve into this issue (which is complex) can be guilty of denying scripture.  Those who "don't care about the shape of the earth" aren't guilty. 

    Since you seem to care, then you'd have to believe in a globe-earth with a firmament (which model does not exist) and thus, you have no "working model" of the solar system, the same as FE.

    The point is,
    heliocentrism = 100% heresy.
    geocentrism = no working model.
    FE = no working model.

    There is no catholic working model.  But people are debating the issues and working towards it.  That's why it matters.

    The Catholic Church has allowed Her school everywhere to teach heliocentrism for centuries. If it were a heresy, that would be impossible for the Church to allow.

    If you want to get an R&R priest here to debate this with me one-on-one without interference, please do. You won't. They always "don't have time" for it. But certainly they do if they can stretch out a conversation for months and reply seldomly.
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    Offline Freind

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    Re: Flat Earth is a Psyop
    « Reply #83 on: December 12, 2025, 05:35:21 PM »
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    • Quote from: SkidRowCatholic on December 12, 2025, 05:22:13 PM
    But all my points above are addressed to "subjects" as the moral certainty each individual needs to act pertains to the each subject's convictions.

    I think going straight to the objective and CERTAIN is what "kills" it for many R&R, i.e., "Who the hell do you think you are telling me what I have to believe and do." etc.

    But truth is OBJECTIVE. Reason is objective. Logic is Objective. That's what Catholic books write about....objective truth.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Flat Earth is a Psyop
    « Reply #84 on: December 12, 2025, 05:47:30 PM »
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    • Quote from: Freind on December 12, 2025, 05:18:58 PM
    I'm talking about the objective, not subjective.
    Moral certainty is inherently subjective.  We're waiting for the Church to decide.  When She does, then it's objective.  Before that, it's subjective.
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    Offline Freind

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    Re: Flat Earth is a Psyop
    « Reply #85 on: December 12, 2025, 05:55:56 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on December 12, 2025, 05:47:30 PM
    Moral certainty is inherently subjective.  We're waiting for the Church to decide.  When She does, then it's objective.  Before that, it's subjective.

    That the Catholic Church is the true Church is objective. That is the certainty of Faith. As well is the Assumption and that nobody can find the bodily remains of Our Lady on earth.
    You understand?
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    Offline Freind

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    Re: Flat Earth is a Psyop
    « Reply #86 on: December 12, 2025, 06:05:26 PM »
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    • Quote from: SkidRowCatholic on December 12, 2025, 06:03:27 PM
    Yes of course.

    My only point is how does each "subject" harmonize with the objective truth?

    They need to have moral convictions (and obey them) that propel them towards truth.

    Yes, as with any Protestant reading the objective truth.
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    Offline Freind

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    Re: Flat Earth is a Psyop
    « Reply #87 on: December 12, 2025, 06:19:52 PM »
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    • Quote from: SkidRowCatholic on December 12, 2025, 06:13:17 PM
    Prot: "I have a moral conviction that "X" should be believed/acted upon because it is my truth."

    Catholic: "I have a moral conviction that "X" should be believed/acted upon because it harmonizes with the objective truth of the Catholic Faith."

    Prot on his way to converting: "I have a moral conviction that the Catholic Church is the true Church - now I need act and convert."

    All Catholic books state OBJECTIVE truth. The authors don't refrain just because there are people who are expected to struggle with it.
    It is objective truth that a true pope cannot promote to the universal Church anything harmful to Faith or Morals.
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    Offline Freind

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    Re: Flat Earth is a Psyop
    « Reply #88 on: December 12, 2025, 06:27:30 PM »
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    • Quote from: SkidRowCatholic on December 12, 2025, 06:23:23 PM
    Yes, and that objective truth acts like a seed on those of good will - and leads them to be CONVICTED TO ACT upon that truth (moral certainty).

    Once the act of separating from the false Popes is consummate in its entirety (and this is KEY) then one is in full possession of the objective truth in this matter and the subject has become reconciled to the objective truth in this case, as you say, "    that a true pope cannot promote to the universal Church anything harmful to Faith or Morals."

    There is ALWAYS the subjective element to accepting the objective truth. But we MUST STILL PRESENT THE OBJECTIVE TRUTH AND SAY IT IS.
    The objective truth is that nobody can find Our Lady's mortal remains on earth in some archaeological site.
    Likewise, the objective truth is that papal claimants since Vatican II cannot be true popes if they promote the heresies of V2 to the Church.
    Not a dogma, but as certain as a dogma, so the certainty is as certain as the Faith itself.
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    Offline Freind

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    Re: Flat Earth is a Psyop
    « Reply #89 on: December 12, 2025, 06:35:34 PM »
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    • Quote from: SkidRowCatholic on December 12, 2025, 06:32:17 PM
    I agree.

    And I have argued the same above about the need to convince/compel others as an act of necessary charity.

    But, the subject is having difficulty reconciling his actions with the objective truth. So, they most be shown that this is the case, which becomes all the more difficult if one has substituted this issue that pertains to one's salvation for another that doesn't (FE). Not saying everyone is doing that. Maybe no one is doing that. Maybe some are. The similarities between the two issues are just too glaringly similar to overlook (IMO). Thus I am on this "Flat Earth is a Psyop" thread arguing that it actually is a Psyop of sorts - at the minimum in some cases - a potential Psyop one is running on their own subconscience.


    Just press for a map. Keeping pressing. They never can present one. They look silly.
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