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Author Topic: Final Ban on Latin Tridentine Mass  (Read 3874 times)

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Offline Plenus Venter

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Re: Final Ban on Latin Tridentine Mass
« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2024, 04:48:28 AM »
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  • Perhaps it will be the mechanism to bring more Trojan horse Bishop Huonders into the SSPX so that true bishops will not be consecrated. It seems that most of the SSPX would now accept such a suicidal operation.

    Offline Simeon

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    Re: Final Ban on Latin Tridentine Mass
    « Reply #16 on: June 20, 2024, 05:03:45 AM »
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  • Forcing a choice on fence sitters is an issue that affects a relatively small number of Catholics and is limited to within the Church.  There are splits within religious groups all the time.  They affect a limited number of people.  If Francis wants his ruling to have global influence, it needs to have much more at stake than yet another religious split.  A full on ban of the Latin Mass would require the support of the globalists and the elite, meaning, the RSP as Bp. W. calls them.  It would need power of law on the multinational and global scale to have a truly global impact, as in, attendance at Latin Mass at risk of your freedom, your money, your ability to function in society, and ultimately, your life.  He doesn’t (yet) possess such power to enact life and death laws.  A ban on diocesan based TLM will have no effect on me.  Many traditionalists already hear Mass and receive Sacraments outside the official n.o. structure. Excommunicating trads who are not part of the official diocesan system is like getting fired from a job you don’t hold, or being expelled from a school you don’t attend.  Meaningless. 

    Thus far they've been able to obliterate the Faith and the Mass and the Sacraments through the mechanism of compromise and obedience.

    I see no reason to think the indulters won't continue to obey or stay inside the novus ordo, including by switching to the SSPX. They have trained themselves to believe that no matter what the impostors do, they are the hierarchy. They have subjectively morphed the Church by force of mental habit, and so cannot comprehend the objective duty to flee the novus ordo, under all of its guises.

    Wait til the impostors blatantly reframe the papacy. Peter K. has been preparing the minds of the compromisers for this next move a long time now. They are all mentally ready for a new definition of "pope." In fact, their warped consciences need a new definition of pope to relieve built up moral pressure.

    They will continue to grow worse and worse, one compromise always begetting another.


    Offline mcollier

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    Re: Final Ban on Latin Tridentine Mass
    « Reply #17 on: June 20, 2024, 05:52:49 AM »
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  • I'm in catechism and not yet baptized so I'm admittedly a neophyte when it comes to everything, but something has never made sense.

    If the Novus Ordo is preaching what is essentially religious pluralism, then what would it matter to them that people want the TLM? If you're going to tell me that Jєωs, buddhists, protestants and even atheists can get to heaven, then why would I care what you have to say about people that are holding the same mass that's been in place for nearly 2000 years? If you're wrong and I'm right, I go to heaven. If I'm wrong and you're right, I still go to heaven.

    It has to be about obedience. The salvation of souls is lex suprema, not obedience.

    I'm not going to stop my journey through Catholicism, but man did I ever pick a time to join. :laugh1:
    Here is why: for the modernist heretical sect (called the Conciliar church by Card Benelli in a letter to Abp  Lefebvre), everyone is somehow in communion with the Conciliar church except for Catholics. 

    On the other hand to be in communion with the Catholic Church one must be Catholic. 

    The Conciliar modernists have simply invaded the official structures of the Church, but the Catholic Church remains indefectible and spotless. These heretics will have their day. 

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Final Ban on Latin Tridentine Mass
    « Reply #18 on: June 20, 2024, 06:00:45 AM »
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  • Thus far they've been able to obliterate the Faith and the Mass and the Sacraments through the mechanism of compromise and obedience.

    I see no reason to think the indulters won't continue to obey or stay inside the novus ordo, including by switching to the SSPX. They have trained themselves to believe that no matter what the impostors do, they are the hierarchy. They have subjectively morphed the Church by force of mental habit, and so cannot comprehend the objective duty to flee the novus ordo, under all of its guises.

    Wait til the impostors blatantly reframe the papacy. Peter K. has been preparing the minds of the compromisers for this next move a long time now. They are all mentally ready for a new definition of "pope." In fact, their warped consciences need a new definition of pope to relieve built up moral pressure.

    They will continue to grow worse and worse, one compromise always begetting another.
    Assuming the so-called "final ban of the TLM" actually happens, I agree that the large percentage of the NO-TLM goers will either go back to the NO or go to the SSPX.  

    Because there will be no other options within the NO sect, SSPX will then become its new "indult".  I think this is what many imagined would eventually happen for years now, no?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Final Ban on Latin Tridentine Mass
    « Reply #19 on: June 20, 2024, 06:55:43 AM »
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  • I don't buy that switching to the SSPX would be tantamount to "staying inside the Novus Ordo".  While they've gradually become infected with various Modernist tendencies (depending on the priest), this is like the guy at Traditio claiming that the 1962 Tridentine Missal is "half Novus Ordo".  Not just yet anyway.

    Once they ban the Tridentine Mass, the remaining Motarians who don't have access to an FSSP chapel will be forced to get off the fence and decide whether they're going over to SSPX or remaining with the Conciliar Church.  There won't be any more of the "have your cake and eat it too" situations (again, outside of FSSP), i.e. "have your Tridentine Mass and be in the Conciliar Church too".

    Once this happens, the next phase will likely be to introduce some additional modernizations into FFSP, and continuing talks to re-absorb SSPX as well.  Alternatively, or additionally, the plan will likely be to introduce some Trojan horse non-bishops, ala Huonder, for the upcoming "consecrations" and render the SSPX ordinations going forward invalid.


    Offline Simeon

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    Re: Final Ban on Latin Tridentine Mass
    « Reply #20 on: June 20, 2024, 07:18:10 AM »
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  • I don't buy that switching to the SSPX would be tantamount to "staying inside the Novus Ordo".  While they've gradually become infected with various Modernist tendencies (depending on the priest), this is like the guy at Traditio claiming that the 1962 Tridentine Missal is "half Novus Ordo".  Not just yet anyway.

    Once they ban the Tridentine Mass, the remaining Motarians who don't have access to an FSSP chapel will be forced to get off the fence and decide whether they're going over to SSPX or remaining with the Conciliar Church.  There won't be any more of the "have your cake and eat it too" situations (again, outside of FSSP), i.e. "have your Tridentine Mass and be in the Conciliar Church too".

    Once this happens, the next phase will likely be to introduce some additional modernizations into FFSP, and continuing talks to re-absorb SSPX as well.  Alternatively, or additionally, the plan will likely be to introduce some Trojan horse non-bishops, ala Huonder, for the upcoming "consecrations" and render the SSPX ordinations going forward invalid.

    Well, you see, I believe that the SSPX has become "regularized," only it has done so in secret. It's like a couple that eloped, but hasn't yet gotten up the guts to tell the parents. 

    How is it that a) they now have faculties for the Sacrament of Penance and marriages; and b) they are categorically obedient on the question of consecrating new bishops (they should have made new bishops a long, long time ago); and c) they let a novus ordo "bishop" corrupt their Holy Oils; and d) they are letting laymen in priest costumes service their chapels; and e) they kept their mouths shut when fiducia supplicans and other monstrosities came out; and f) their priests and bishops use novus ordo "churches" for sacramental ceremonies? 

    It think it is logically impossible that they simultaneously hold on to their independence and do these gravely sinful things. It is also logically impossible that the novus ordo has given what it's given without getting something in return. SSPX "disobedience" died somewhere before 2013. They have submitted. They are formal subjects of the false hierarchy - of the false church; and worse, they are hiding it from their donor base. That's the lowest form of low. 

    And it's no coincidence that, having done a very dirty deed in the dark, while clothing themselves as angels of light, their dirty little scandals, nay their integral corruptions, are now oozing out in public like hot brie in puff pastry. 

    God sees in secret.

    I believe they cut a deal with Ratzinger. His work now being done, he retired. This new thrust is the next phase in one single plan. I think the SSPX is now part and parcel of the conciliar beast; and it cannot get out now, even if it tried. I think they've been Epsteined in some way. 

      

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Final Ban on Latin Tridentine Mass
    « Reply #21 on: June 20, 2024, 07:22:28 AM »
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  • The Latin Mass has been taken away before, in the 1960's. It was even more dramatic back then, given that all Latin Rite parishes in the world celebrated the Latin Mass, before the New Mass took over. That's one of the main reasons that the SSPX was formed - to keep the Old Mass from going extinct.

    I'm okay with the Indult existing. Salvation of souls is the main reason that the Church exists. Even in the conciliar church, souls can be saved. I don't think that +ABL thought that no souls could be saved in the conciliar church, but his views don't really seem count for much anymore. It's unfortunate that the Latin Mass in the conciliar church is likely going to be banned, but it's not surprising, given how hard the Modernists in Rome are trying the get rid of every last vestige of Tradition. Some bishops may defy Bergolio/Francis, and keep the Latin Mass in their diocese. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Final Ban on Latin Tridentine Mass
    « Reply #22 on: June 20, 2024, 07:52:23 AM »
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  • Well, you see, I believe that the SSPX has become "regularized," only it has done so in secret. It's like a couple that eloped, but hasn't yet gotten up the guts to tell the parents.

    How is it that a) they now have faculties for the Sacrament of Penance and marriages; and b) they are categorically obedient on the question of consecrating new bishops (they should have made new bishops a long, long time ago); and c) they let a novus ordo "bishop" corrupt their Holy Oils; and d) they are letting laymen in priest costumes service their chapels; and e) they kept their mouths shut when fiducia supplicans and other monstrosities came out; and f) their priests and bishops use novus ordo "churches" for sacramental ceremonies?

    It think it is logically impossible that they simultaneously hold on to their independence and do these gravely sinful things. It is also logically impossible that the novus ordo has given what it's given without getting something in return. SSPX "disobedience" died somewhere before 2013. They have submitted. They are formal subjects of the false hierarchy - of the false church; and worse, they are hiding it from their donor base. That's the lowest form of low.

    And it's no coincidence that, having done a very dirty deed in the dark, while clothing themselves as angels of light, their dirty little scandals, nay their integral corruptions, are now oozing out in public like hot brie in puff pastry.

    God sees in secret.

    I believe they cut a deal with Ratzinger. His work now being done, he retired. This new thrust is the next phase in one single plan. I think the SSPX is now part and parcel of the conciliar beast; and it cannot get out now, even if it tried. I think they've been Epsteined in some way.

     
    I don't think you're far off.  I think the difference between your and my thinking is I just think it will be out in the open after this ban by officially making it their new indult.


    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: Final Ban on Latin Tridentine Mass
    « Reply #23 on: June 20, 2024, 08:42:16 AM »
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  • I'm in catechism and not yet baptized so I'm admittedly a neophyte when it comes to everything, but something has never made sense.

    If the Novus Ordo is preaching what is essentially religious pluralism, then what would it matter to them that people want the TLM? If you're going to tell me that jews, buddhists, protestants and even atheists can get to heaven, then why would I care what you have to say about people that are holding the same mass that's been in place for nearly 2000 years? If you're wrong and I'm right, I go to heaven. If I'm wrong and you're right, I still go to heaven.

    It has to be about obedience. The salvation of souls is lex suprema, not obedience.

    I'm not going to stop my journey through Catholicism, but man did I ever pick a time to join. :laugh1:
    It makes perfect sense when you realize the Novus Ordo sect is headed by satan with the goal of exterminating Catholicism.

    Online Minnesota

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    Re: Final Ban on Latin Tridentine Mass
    « Reply #24 on: June 20, 2024, 08:45:21 AM »
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  • They'll probably go to the SSPX. I know people who attend the one diocesan Mass in the Diocese of St. Cloud and their only hurdle to the SSPX is them being (in their words) "not in communion". This will change that for them.
    Christ is Risen! He is risen indeed

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Final Ban on Latin Tridentine Mass
    « Reply #25 on: June 20, 2024, 09:00:32 AM »
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  • They'll probably go to the SSPX. I know people who attend the one diocesan Mass in the Diocese of St. Cloud and their only hurdle to the SSPX is them being (in their words) "not in communion". This will change that for them.

    That's not my experience.  They shut down a few Motu Masses in Cleveland, and most of them just got reabsorbed into the Novus Ordo.  One place started doing a Latin Novus Ordo Mass and they all stayed there, as it was good enough for them ... just to get some smells and bells.  Some will drift over to SSPX, but most will stay put in the Conciliar establishment, since being "normal" and "accepted" means more to them than the Tridentine Mass ... much less is it an issue of faith and doctrine.


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Final Ban on Latin Tridentine Mass
    « Reply #26 on: June 20, 2024, 09:47:19 AM »
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  • They'll probably go to the SSPX. I know people who attend the one diocesan Mass in the Diocese of St. Cloud and their only hurdle to the SSPX is them being (in their words) "not in communion". This will change that for them.
    Why would that change things for them?  Why would the "not in communion" change just because there is no other convenient TLM option?  Unless of course the SSPX is officially "brought into the fold" somehow. 

     And now with Vigano's imminent excommunication, they will be even more leery (again, unless the SSPX fully capitulates and officially becomes the NO indult group).

    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: Final Ban on Latin Tridentine Mass
    « Reply #27 on: June 20, 2024, 10:32:23 AM »
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  • If the SSPX loses the Faith, God will provide maybe SSPV or some similar group.  But I believe the true Mass and Sacraments will exist somewhere in the world until Christ returns in His Lowry as King.  Those for whom getting to the actual few Masses in existence is impossible, will be attached in spirit.  Look at the Japanese for example, who had no Mass, no priests for more than two centuries yet they kept the Faith throughout that time.  

    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: Final Ban on Latin Tridentine Mass
    « Reply #28 on: June 20, 2024, 11:15:38 AM »
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  • Yes.  Look at the laity with zero access to the Mass, they weren’t exposed to corruption of government controlled churches.  

    Is the Sspx associated with diocesan.   Are they 301 fed and state tax exempt.  
    May God bless you and keep you

    Offline Cera

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    Re: Final Ban on Latin Tridentine Mass
    « Reply #29 on: June 20, 2024, 01:09:43 PM »
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  • Wonder if Francis will keel over the day before.  At some point, God will intervene.
    Bergolio is part of our Chastisement.
    Pray for the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary