Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Feeney the nut job  (Read 32608 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
  • *****
  • Posts: 14751
  • Reputation: +6085/-907
  • Gender: Male
Re: Feeney the nut job
« Reply #255 on: October 22, 2024, 09:32:57 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • These are some questions I have about BOD.
    1. Can someone with zero knowledge of Jesus Christ obtain a BOD?
    2. Can someone with animosity towards Jesus Christ say a Jew or Muslim obtain a BOD?
    3. Where does the contrition come from? Is it formed internally? Is it actual graces?
    4. Does the person getting the BOD have to have a firm purpose of amendment to not to repeat their sins or is this only an end of life situation?
    5. Whom do they offer their contrition to if they don’t know the True God?
    6. Does the BOD have anything to do with immanence? We all have a little piece of God in us, therefore God resides in every soul.
    If you read some of the things written in various catechisms etc., a BOD happens to everyone not baptized, even if they never heard of the existence of the sacrament of baptism. It's crazy.
     
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline OABrownson1876

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 706
    • Reputation: +577/-27
    • Gender: Male
      • The Orestes Brownson Society
    Re: Feeney the nut job
    « Reply #256 on: October 22, 2024, 10:13:32 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Not yet, no. Thinking every one of the 8 billion people on Earth has access to the net is mistaken.

    Statista: "As of July 2024, there were 5.45 billion internet users worldwide, which amounted to 67.1 percent of the global population." So over 3.5 billion people don't have or use the internet yet.

    Estimates of the unevangelized population of the globe differ, but most would put it around 2-3 billion.

    "Of the 55 least evangelized countries, 97% of their population lives within the 10/40 Window. Unless something changes, huge numbers of these unreached people groups will go out into eternity never having heard the Gospel. Why? Well, researcher Justin Long has estimated that only about 10% of the global missionary force is working there. One reason is that in many 10/40 Window countries, open evangelism is difficult and even impossible because of governmental restrictions." https://home.snu.edu/~hculbert/1040.htm

    What Catholics need to do is pray and work to reach the unreached and share with them the good news of the gospel in love. If we pray well and work hard, Christ's commission to preach the Gospel to all can be accomplished in maybe about 10-15 years, after which indeed no one would not have heard of Christ. If we have love for souls, we will do that. Not only them, but even their descendants will then be born in regions of the globe that have heard the Gospel. As of now, they dont have it. Condemning vast billions for being in the wrong place is not of God and is Feeneyite idiocy.
    It is a bit silly to imagine that those who have not the internet have somehow not had the truth preached to them.  As Fr. Wathen said long before the days of internet, "These pagans in far off lands know what Coco Cola is, but they do not know the Church?"  When Noe preached the truth to all nations, it was mainly by word of mouth.  He had presumably no writing, in terms of communication, practically nothing but the spoken word.  Even today most truth is by word of mouth.  When I tell a guy, "Unless you die a good Catholic, you will be damned,"  he may or may not research the internet, or he may or may not do any number of things.  If he is damned, he is not going to have some lousy, pathetic excuse.   
    Bryan Shepherd, M.A. Phil.
    PO Box 17248
    2312 S. Preston
    Louisville, Ky. 40217; email:letsgobryan@protonmail.com. substack: bryanshepherd.substack.com
    website: www.orestesbrownson.org. Rumble: rumble.com/user/Orestes76


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46813
    • Reputation: +27669/-5138
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Feeney the nut job
    « Reply #257 on: October 22, 2024, 10:13:47 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • These are some questions I have about BOD.
    1. Can someone with zero knowledge of Jesus Christ obtain a BOD?
    2. Can someone with animosity towards Jesus Christ say a Jew or Muslim obtain a BOD?
    3. Where does the contrition come from? Is it formed internally? Is it actual graces?
    4. Does the person getting the BOD have to have a firm purpose of amendment to not to repeat their sins or is this only an end of life situation?
    5. Whom do they offer their contrition to if they don’t know the True God?
    6. Does the BOD have anything to do with immanence? We all have a little piece of God in us, therefore God resides in every soul.

    Depends on which BoDer you ask ... which is prima facie evidence that nothing has been defined by the Church.  I am not required to believe in "words" or "phrases", like, muh BoD.  We believe in and assent to actual PROPOSITIONS, and at no point has any proposition about BoD ever been produced from the Magisterium in terms of WHAT it is that we're required to believe about it.  Really, the only common denominator among all those who believe in BoD is that the Sacrament of Baptism is not necessary for salvation ... which is in fact heresy per Trent.

    Offline Motorede

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 341
    • Reputation: +198/-41
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Feeney the nut job
    « Reply #258 on: October 22, 2024, 10:48:54 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • As Lad said, these questions depend on who you ask, but I can answer the others:

    Yes, it is a response to actual grace, which comes from God.



    Yes, because "baptism of desire" is perfect contrition of one who has not been baptized, and perfect contrition requires a firm purpose of amendment.


    Contrition is directed to the true God.  Keep in mind that the true God can be known by the light of reason, per Vatican I, whereas the Trinity can only be "known" by revelation.  From this it follows that a person can believe in the true God without believing in the Trinity.


    No, it doesn't have anything to do with that. BOD is simply an act of perfect contrition - combined with an act of supernatural faith - made by one who has not been baptized.  The reason it is called baptism of desire is because it has the salvific effect of baptism, namely, sanctifying grace.  Simply "desiring" baptism will not produce the effect.


    I think it is an error to say "true God" here.  The true God, as we know and believe, is God is Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost. Correctly expressed, the above should read "Keep in mind that the existence of God can be proved by the light of reason, per Vatican I...."

    Offline NishantXavier

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 621
    • Reputation: +209/-531
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Feeney the nut job
    « Reply #259 on: October 22, 2024, 10:51:31 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Yes, consider the case of native Indians who lived before Christopher Columbus discovered America. They were living in invincible ignorance of Christ and of Baptism. Christopher Columbus, who had great missionary zeal, wanted to discover and lead all such souls to Christ and His Church, and he knew some of them had good will and would accept the Gospel when it was preached to them, as indeed some of them did. Cardinal De Lugo, a roughly contemporary Spanish Jesuit and Cardinal, also believed in and taught baptism of desire.

    Calvin and heretics like him are ok with saying all such non-Catholics who lived before the preaching of the Gospel there are necessarily damned. The Church is not. She says, through Pope Pius IX, all who lived according to their conscience and observing natural law as best they could, before the arrival of Catholic missionaries, could have been saved, by the Mercy of God, through means known to Him. Baptism of desire is operative when one cannot receive the Sacrament. Not when one can but has refused to.

    OAbrownson, read the data carefully: "Two-thirds of the world's population -- more than 4.4 billion people -- live in the 10/40 Window. Unreached and unevangelized: 90% of people in the 10/40 Window are unevangelized. Many have never heard the Gospel message even once." I'm not speaking of someone in contact with you who refuses to join the Church after he has been convinced of its necessity. We are speaking of those who live in poor countries, don't have basic facilities (internet being one means among many God can use), have not heard the Gospel, nor encountered Catholic missionaries, nor seen churches, let alone traditional churches etc.


    Offline NishantXavier

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 621
    • Reputation: +209/-531
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Feeney the nut job
    « Reply #260 on: October 22, 2024, 10:52:46 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • RacerX, the syllogism is like this:

    (1) Christ said whatever the Pope/Church binds and looses on earth is bound in heaven.
    (2) But the Church binds and looses that Saint X is truly in Heaven and was a Saint.
    (3) Therefore, that Saint X is truly a Saint and now in Heaven is bound/confirmed by Christ Himself.

    It is the same as applies to other dogmatic facts. One premise is from revelation, one from reason.

    Stubborn, you were talking about Divine Providence. BOD itself is Divine Providence, both for those I mentioned above, whom Christopher Columbus discovered (after centuries/100s of years of them not hearing the Gospel), and those in many regions of the globe even today who don't have much presence of Catholic missionaries or churches. God will judge them according to the little you have. You don't need to worry about that other than by striving to preach the faith to as many non-Catholics as possible and inviting them to come into the Church.

    Ladislaus continues to opine as if the Pope were just expressing an opinion. As Pope Pius XII clearly explained, this is not about just expressing an opinion, but about purposely passing judgment on a doctrinal matter. After the Pontiff passes such a judgment, the Pope said, such a question is no longer open for theologians/faithful to deny. If the Pope were merely speculating, instead of declaring bod denial "gravely harmful both to those within and (outside) the Church", it would be a different matter. When the Church is restored, She will confirm Pope Pius XII's judgment. Wait and watch.

    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 14751
    • Reputation: +6085/-907
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Feeney the nut job
    « Reply #261 on: October 22, 2024, 10:53:58 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • But the question is not when did this or that person defect.  The question is, when did the moral body - Apostolic/Episcopal College - defect by becomming a new Church?
    I answered that - no one knows the exact time, perhaps because the new faith was perpetrated on the world more like a blanket being thrown over it starting at one end, than someone flipping a light switch.


    One reason is becaue you could be completely convinced that something was true, which, in fact, is not. For example, you could be convinced that the universal Church based in Rome -  the same visible organization that has existed since the time of the Apostles - became "substantially different" than what it was sometime around 1965ish, and therefore cannot now be the true Church.  In that case, you could end up denyining the indefectibility of the Church, which is de fide.  That's one example.

    When it comes to this subject, all anyone has to do is use their own eyes to see that what happens in the conciliar church since V2 goes contrary to what the Church has always taught, I mean, it's no big mystery far as that goes, and because of this, we know that the conciliar church is not the Catholic Church. ALSO, this answers your 2nd last question.

    I like this explanation the best, from Fr. Wathen's book, Who Shall Ascend?:
    "The reader is implored to believe that as it is in the spirit of Christian charity that we have been compelled to proclaim the Catholic Church to be the sole and exclusive instrument of salvation for men on earth, it is in the same spirit that we assert the major thesis of this third part, viz., the Conciliar Church is not the Catholic
    Church, though it is within it, like a fifth column. Hence, no one who maintains membership within it can be saved. We say that we speak thus with genuine charity, because true charity seeks to inform  one's neighbor what he must do for his salvation, and when he is in danger of losing it.

    Conciliar Catholics with normal intelligence ought all finally to be able to wake up to the fact that they are being made fools of by their Conciliar priests and bishops."

    Quote
    But if the moral body defected, it doesn't only mean it is not the true Church now; it means it was not the true Church then (i.e., before Vatican II), because the true Church is indefectible.  If the moral body had the four marks before Vatican II, it also had the attribute of indefectibility, and therefore must have the four marks now.  If it does not have the four marks now, it logically follows that it didn't have them then, since the Church with four marks is indefectible.

    But a faithful bishop or two within a false Church does not make the false Church true.  He doesn't give a false Church the four marks, infallibility, or indefectibility, which are necessary properties of the true Church.
    You are correct, the conciliar church is not now, nor was it ever the true Church. To put it plainly, we had our Pentecost at, well, Pentecost, the conciliar church had it's pentecost at V2. Pope John Paul II even said that it is the church of the new pentecost and the church of the new advent. 

    You're right, a faithful bishop or two within a false Church does not make the false Church true, rather, a faithful bishop or two in the false church are always treated as enemy invaders and exterminated immediately once they're discovered, lest they spread their disease of the true faith within the false church. Reference +ABL and +Vigano for examples.


    Quote
    My final question is: If the moral body is no longer the true Church, where is the rue Church? Where is the infallible, indefectible Church with four marks and unity of government, that was estblished as a visible society by Jesus Christ, and which has existed since that time, according to His promises - "the gates of hell shall not prevail"?  Where is that Church?
    Fr. Hesse gave a great answer to this, essentially he said that because Christ and the Church are one and the same (quoting pope Pius XII I think), where Christ is in the Holy Eucharist, there is the Church visible.

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline NishantXavier

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 621
    • Reputation: +209/-531
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Feeney the nut job
    « Reply #262 on: October 22, 2024, 11:00:17 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Binding and loosing refers to the Pope's office. The pope has the power of magisterium to teach and the power of jurisdiction to rule. The Keys to bind and loose refer to that. Also see the analogy with Eliachim in the OT in Isa 22, who had keys of authority. All this is also clearly explained in Vatican I. Can you address the St. Alphonsus quote? 


    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 14751
    • Reputation: +6085/-907
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Feeney the nut job
    « Reply #263 on: October 22, 2024, 11:19:33 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Stubborn, you were talking about Divine Providence. BOD itself is Divine Providence, both for those I mentioned above, whom Christopher Columbus discovered (after centuries/100s of years of them not hearing the Gospel), and those in many regions of the globe even today who don't have much presence of Catholic missionaries or churches. God will judge them according to the little you have. You don't need to worry about that other than by striving to preach the faith to as many non-Catholics as possible and inviting them to come into the Church.
    I disagree that BOD itself is Divine Providence. If anything a BOD is a hopeless, faithless and dying soul first desiring, then corresponding to certain graces, but this is not Divine Providence, if anything this is salvation through faith....which the Church condemns, not to mention that this requires a faith that the BOD recipient does not have. Remember, without the faith it is impossible to please God no matter how contrite one is.

    What is always ignored or forgotten is that it is by the very same providence that you were baptized that all are baptized - the same providence. IOW, God provides the water and the minster and the time for everyone, exactly as He did for you - if He didn't, no one would ever be baptized, including you and me. By God making water and the Holy Ghost the requirement, He committed Himself to provide that requirement to all who desire baptism.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline NishantXavier

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 621
    • Reputation: +209/-531
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Feeney the nut job
    « Reply #264 on: October 22, 2024, 11:28:54 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Foolish. God gave you, I presume, baptism from your cradle. If you were born to Catholic parents, you have a blessing about 7 billion people around the globe do not have. God will judge you by what you were given. God will judge them by what they were given. When they receive knowledge of the Truth, it is their obligation to accept it. Otherwise, if Catholics are lazy and don't do God's work and don't send or support missionaries, that is not their fault. That is the fault of Catholics, and of those who should have been missionaries but preferred to do something else. God will judge everyone according to their own desires and His secrets which He alone knows with 100% certainty. Baptism of desire is God's providence for those who don't yet have missionaries and can't obtain baptism without a miracle. A person who believes in God as best he knows and has contrition for his sins is neither faithless nor hopeless. He or she has a living faith that works by charity and which is sufficient to obtain sanctifying grace. If God gives you, a Catholic, who has so many opportunities the avail the sacraments, justification by acts of contrition, why on earth would He refuse it to a poor innocent pagan living according to the lights he has? You might, but He wouldn't. And it's His judgment that matters, not yours. If you disagree, be prepared to call Pius IX, Pius X, Leo XIII and Pius XII all as heretics for allegedly contradicting Trent and teaching baptism of desire. Oh, and add Pope St. Pius V as well.

    Offline NishantXavier

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 621
    • Reputation: +209/-531
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Feeney the nut job
    « Reply #265 on: October 22, 2024, 11:30:44 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • http://www.baltimore-catechism.com/lesson14.htm

    "Q. 650. What is Baptism of desire?
    A. Baptism of desire is an ardent wish to receive Baptism, and to do all that God has ordained for our salvation.
    Q. 651. What is Baptism of blood?
    A. Baptism of blood is the shedding of one's blood for the faith of Christ.
    Q. 652. What is the baptism of blood most commonly called?
    A. The baptism of blood is most commonly called martyrdom, and those who receive it are called martyrs. It is the death one patiently suffers from the enemies of our religion, rather than give up Catholic faith or virtue. We must not seek martyrdom, though we must endure it when it comes.
    Q. 653. Is Baptism of desire or of blood sufficient to produce the effects of Baptism of water?
    A. Baptism of desire or of blood is sufficient to produce the effects of the Baptism of water, if it is impossible to receive the Baptism of water.
    Q. 654. How do we know that the baptism of desire or of blood will save us when it is impossible to receive the baptism of water?
    A. We know that baptism of desire or of blood will save us when it is impossible to receive the baptism of water, from Holy Scripture, which teaches that love of God and perfect contrition can secure the remission of sins ; and also that Our Lord promises salvation to those who lay down their life for His sake or for His teaching."




    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46813
    • Reputation: +27669/-5138
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Feeney the nut job
    « Reply #266 on: October 22, 2024, 11:34:35 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I disagree that BOD itself is Divine Providence.

    Of course it isn't.  It's predicated upon an inability imputed to Divine Providence to provide the Sacrament of Baptism to His elect.

    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 14751
    • Reputation: +6085/-907
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Feeney the nut job
    « Reply #267 on: October 22, 2024, 11:50:14 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Foolish. God gave you, I presume, baptism from your cradle. If you were born to Catholic parents, you have a blessing about 7 billion people around the globe do not have.
    Why do I even need the blessings if it is possible to get to heaven without them?

    Otherwise, if Catholics are lazy and don't do God's work and don't send or support missionaries, that is not their fault. That is the fault of Catholics, and of those who should have been missionaries but preferred to do something else......If you disagree, be prepared to call Pius IX, Pius X, Leo XIII and Pius XII all as heretics for allegedly contradicting Trent and teaching baptism of desire. Oh, and add Pope St. Pius V as well.
    Well, now you're just being ridiculous blaming Catholics for those who die unbaptized.

    Scripture tells us who bears some of the guilt, and it's not Catholics: "The Lord is patient and full of mercy, taking away iniquity and wickedness, and leaving no man clear, who visitest the sins of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation. [Numbers 14:18]

    Another thing that's crazy is when BODers call upon popes and councils as if they taught a BOD. Ridiculous.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline NishantXavier

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 621
    • Reputation: +209/-531
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Feeney the nut job
    « Reply #268 on: October 22, 2024, 11:50:46 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • God is not bound to work continual miracles to make up for the laziness of some of His disciples who refused to evangelize. God will make use of the available missionaries who do everything possible in their power to labor to win souls for Christ and His Church, that is the ordinary means. The extraordinary means are known to Him alone. He will reveal all secrets when we get to Heaven. He can use miracles, He has also given all, out of His universal love, a means within their power, to obtain justifying grace, called the "golden key to Paradise", which is, moved by grace, to love God above all things with contrition for one's sins, which is also the first and greatest commandment of all. He who loves God, says St. James, has fulfilled the law. He who loves God, says St. John is born of God, and knows God, for God is love. Feeneyites don't know God, and hence they fall into error by refusing and rejecting the Church. Their error is not from invincible ignorance because the Church has corrected them and still they persist. St. Thomas most certainly was born of God and loved God, the God who is Love, and knew God, and knowing so many things about God, he said wonderfully, "God has bound us to the Sacraments, but He has not in such a way bound His own power to the sacraments as to be unable to confer the sacramental grace without an external sacrament." God will do what pleases Him in the case of the invincibly ignorant, in the case of those who repent near death, and other such cases.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46813
    • Reputation: +27669/-5138
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Feeney the nut job
    « Reply #269 on: October 22, 2024, 11:53:38 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • God is not bound to work continual miracles ...

    Sure, but God is bound by impossibility.  God's Providence doesn't require miracles.  Are you that brainless?  I guess that heretical bad will does that to people.