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Author Topic: Feeney the nut job  (Read 32726 times)

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Offline NishantXavier

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Re: Feeney the nut job
« Reply #225 on: October 20, 2024, 10:56:43 PM »
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  • Keep thinking that you know more about theology than Saint Alphonsus and Saint Robert and I can guarantee you that you will be headed into perdition. The Church gave us these great people to follow, not Ladislaus and not you. Catch yourself now before it’s too late, son.
    Agreed, Quo. Why would the Church even canonize St. Alphonsus and St. Robert, let alone declare them doctors of the church, if they allegedly failed in basic reading comprehension and supposedly could not even understand Trent did not teach baptism of desire? Feeneyism is total nonsense, makes no sense and attempts to make a mockery of the Church. But it only ends up making a mockery of itself, and proving itself to be the non-Catholic trash it indeed is.

    Offline NishantXavier

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    Re: Feeney the nut job
    « Reply #226 on: October 21, 2024, 01:40:27 AM »
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  • Baptism of desire defined and proved in the 1907 Catholic Encyclopedia: "The baptism of desire (baptismus flaminis) is a perfect contrition of heart, and every act of perfect charity or pure love of God which contains, at least implicitly, a desire (votum) of baptism. The Latin word flamen is used because Flamen is a name for the Holy Ghost, Whose special office it is to move the heart to love God and to conceive penitence for sin. The "baptism of the Holy Ghost" is a term employed in the third century by the anonymous author of the book "De Rebaptismate". The efficacy of this baptism of desire to supply the place of the baptism of water, as to its principal effect, is proved from the words of Christ. After He had declared the necessity of baptism (John 3), He promised justifying grace for acts of charity or perfect contrition (John 14): "He that loveth Me, shall be loved of my Father: and I will love him and will manifest myself to him." And again: "If any one love me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and will make our abode with him." Since these texts declare that justifying grace is bestowed on account of acts of perfect charity or contrition, it is evident that these acts supply the place of baptism as to its principal effect, the remission of sins. This doctrine is set forth clearly by the Council of Trent. In the fourteenth session (cap. iv) the council teaches that contrition is sometimes perfected by charity, and reconciles man to God, before the Sacrament of Penance is received. In the fourth chapter of the sixth session, in speaking of the necessity of baptism, it says that men can not obtain original justice "except by the washing of regeneration or its desire" (voto). The same doctrine is taught by Pope Innocent III (cap. Debitum, iv, De Bapt.), and the contrary propositions are condemned by Popes Pius V and Gregory XII, in proscribing the 31st and 33rd propositions of Baius."


    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Feeney the nut job
    « Reply #227 on: October 21, 2024, 03:51:12 AM »
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  • As often happens, bad will and resistance to the truth leads to stupidity.  St. Thomas taught that the intellect naturally tends to truth ... except when obstructed by bad will.

    You are both at once ignorant of Church history and struggle with reading comprehension, and this is compounded by what can rightly be called a popolatry.

    Honorius was anathematized by the Third Council of Constantinople, an anathema that was confirmed and ratified by Pope Leo II, who then added the explanation that it wasn't for pertinacious adherence to heresy himself but for neglect, a failure to condemn, allowing heresy to flourish and thus to be used as a tool of Satan for the spread of heresy.  Honorius' failure was trivial compared to the failures of Pius XII, his failure to condemn Modernism, giving it countenance in many areas, and appointing one Modernist heretic after another to episcopal Sees.  Honorius was anathematized 40 years after his death.  Whether or not the same fate befalls Pius XII, if you were possessed of any reading comprehension, you'd see that I said that if Pius XII isn't anathematized then it owes an apology for Honoroius, which expression means that the Church saw fit to anathematize Honorius for MUCH less that Pius XII did.  It's similar to the expression that "if God doesn't destroy the United States [or Tel Aviv], then He owes an aplogy to Sodom and Gomorrha".  It's a rhetorical expression that evidently you are too dense and blinded by your exaggeration of papal infallability and impeccability to properly comprehend.

    In any case, take a look again at the Cadaver synod as well, where Formosus was disinterred, condemned, thrown into the Tiber, the proceedings having been presided over and approved by another Pope, Stephen VI.  But then Formosus' body somehow floated shore, and so a popular uprising removed and imprisoned that Pope.  Then two subsequent Popes annulled the cadavers synod, reinterred Formosus, annd condemned Stephen VI.  But then ANOTHER Pope came along, one who had voted to condemn Formosus at the original synod, and reaffirmed the condemnation of Formosus, having inscribed words of praise on the tomb of Stephen VI.

    So, it's the example of Honorius that Cardinal Franzelin uses as a caution to avoid exaggerating the scope of papal infallibility.

    Unfortunately, in reacting against R&R, who have effectively gutted the Church's indefectibility by reducing the protection of the Holy Ghost over the Church and the Papay to the one-or-twice-per-century solemn dogmatic definition, the SVs have exaggerated the scope of papal infallibility to the point of absurdity, and to an extent that NO THEOLOGIAN between Vatican I and Vatican II ever taught.  Many popes made errors, even in the docuмents they promulugated as Pope (vs. private theologian).  There was much debate about whether Honorius' letter to Sergius was meant as an ex cathedra pronouncement.  Another famous case had Innocent II proclaming, in a Magisterial docuмent, that the Mass was valid even if a priest merely thought the words of consecration.  St. Thomas took him to task for that error.

    Finally, the SVs engage in confirmation-bias-driven appeal to authority, where they puff up the authority of docuмents they like (that promote things they agree with) but then simply ignore the ones they don't like.  So, for instance, a teaching of the Holy Office clearly taught that explicit belief in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation are necessary by a necessity of means for salvation, but that doesn't stop most SVs (ignoring that ruling) from continuing to claim that infidels who believed merely in the "Rewarder God" can be saved.

    Apart from the CMRI, the rest of SVs reject the Holy Week Rites promulgated by Pope Pius XII because they were defective, tainted with Modernism, etc. ... despite from the other side of their mouths preaching that Popes are infallible in doctrine and discipline pretty much every time they pass wind.

    This self-serving confirmation-bias-based filtering leads to self-contradiction and inconsistency, aka hypocrisy.


    Let St. Robert Bellarmine correct you, once again, on your mistaken assessment of the Pope Stephen VI and Pope Formosus case:

    “The Twenty-Seventh Pope is Stephen VI, who can be joined with the Twenty Eight Pope accused of error, Sergius III. It is certain from Platina and others, that Stephen invalidated the acts of Pope Formosus, his predecessor, and commanded those ordained by him to be ordained again. Hence he thought that the Sacrament depended upon the virtue of the minister, which is a manifest error in faith. For that reason, Pope John IX afterward invalidated the acts of Stephen VI and approved the acts of Formosus. But a little afterward, Sergius III again invalidated the acts of Formosus, and hence also of John, and approved the acts of Stephen. Necessarily, one of these Popes was opposed to the others and erred, as the Centuriators diligently observed.

    I respond: Stephen VI and Sergius III erred in a question of fact, not of law, and gave a bad example, not false doctrine. This is the history. Formosus, the Cardinal Bishop of Portus, was deposed by Pope John VIII, and demoted and returned to the lay state, after which he swore that he would never return to the city, or the Episcopate. A little after the death of John VIII, his successor, Martin II absolved Formosus of his careless oath, and restored him to his original dignity. Not long after that, Formosus was created Pope. He lived for five years and died. Stephen VI succeeded him who, being enkindled with great hatred against Formosus (or else unaware or not believing that he was absolved of his oath by Pope Martin), decreed publicly in a Council of Bishops that Formosus was never a legitimate Pope and therefore, all his acts were invalid. He compelled all those who had received orders from him to be ordained again, just as if they had received nothing. This deed displeased everyone, and therefore three Popes in succession, Roman I, Theodore II and especially John IX, after calling another Episcopal Council, judged that Formosus was a true Pope and invalidated the sentence of Stephen VI. Next, Sergius III succeeded him and imitated Stephen VI in all things. The particular question was whether Formosus was a legitimate Pope. We do not deny that in such questions Popes can err, and Stephan and Sergius erred in fact. But you will object: Stephen and Sergius not only judged that Formosus was not a true Pope, but even the sacred orders which he conferred were not valid; such is a manifest error against faith. For, even if Formosus was not a Pope, and always remained deposed and demoted, still, because he was at one time a true Bishop, and insofar as the character and power of orders cannot by any means be taken away, it is an error in faith to say that the sacred orders he conferred were not true orders. I respond: Stephen and Sergius did not publish some decree whereby they determined the orders by a demoted Bishop, or the orders that Formosus by name conferred after he had been demoted, must be conferred again, rather, they only de facto commanded them to be conferred again. Such a command proceeded not from ignorance or heresy; but from hatred against Formosus. Sigebert remarks in his Chronicle for the year 803 that Stephen VI was forcefully opposed by all those who were ordained by Formosus.“
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Feeney the nut job
    « Reply #228 on: October 21, 2024, 06:43:20 AM »
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  • As typical of your water-logged brain (caused by your bad will), you're once again conflating one issues.

    In terms of whether Honorius erred, which wasn't my primary point, it's disputed.  Some say he erred, but wasn't trying to define anything (therefore did not meet the notes of infallibility) ... that's in fact the majority opinion, as laid out by Cardinal Franzelin.  But I guess Honorius did nothing wrong, right, so the Third Council of Constantinople anathematized him for no reason, just because somehow they misunderstood what Honorius was really trying to say, and Pope Leo II erred in confirming the Council and its sentence against Honorius.

    You make a mockery of the Church and the Papacy by constantly promoting the notion that a Pope is infallible every time he passes wind ... which, I repeat, NOT A SINGLE CATHOLIC THEOLOGIAN between Vatican I (when the dogma was defined) and Vatican II every held.  This is precisely the notion that the Fathers at Vatican I wanted to avoid by laying down the notes of an infallible definition.

    There are other examples of papal error throughout history.

    Of course, you all contradict yourselves by claiming that a Pope can never err in any context, whether in a long-winded 2-hour speech to a group of midwives or whether in any decision of the Holy Office ... except that you all hypocritically ignore the various decision of the Holy Office that you don't like.  I know of no SV who agrees with the Holy Office (and Bellarmine) that you're committing error proximate to heresy in denying geocentrism.  And I know of no SV who does not hold "Rewarder God" soteriology, despite its having been condemned by the Holy Office.  Finally, the majority of SVs (only CMRI are consistent on this point), refuse to use the Pius XII Holy Week Rites because they're contaminated by Modernism (despite claiming out of the other side of their mouth that Liturgy that's defective in any way is not possible).  You can throw the term "epikeia" out there all you want, which is their legalistic attempt to justify their actions (well, since Pius XII is dead, we no longer have to follow his directives) ... the fact of the matter is that they MUST hold there's something WRONG (wrong enough) with the 1955 Holy Week Rites for them to have to invoke "epikeia" in the first place ... since why would you bother if the Rites are perfectly good.  That's one of the many elephants in the room for the hypocritical self-serving self-contradictory bad willed SVs such as yourself.

    Secondly, the main point about Honorius was that you accused me of heresy for making the statement that "Since the Church anathematized Honorius, they would owe him an apology if they don't do the same for Pius XII."  Evidently Popes are capable of being so negligent and derelict in defending the faith as to be worthy of anathema, and again, due to your lack of reading comprehension, you fail to realize that this statement just means that what Honorius did PALES in comparison to what Pius XII did in terms of allowing a shipwreck of the faith.

    What's most absurd is that you're actually backing this up by minimizing the error of Honorius, since the more you minimize it, the less reason there was for the Church to have anathematized him, strengthening my point even more, that if he was anathematized evidently for "so little", then Pius XII clearly did far worse.

    Your brains are mired in a swamp of self-serving self-contradictions because you have overreacted to the errors of R&R by exaggerating the scope of papal infallibility to the point of absurdity.

    Offline NishantXavier

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    Re: Feeney the nut job
    « Reply #229 on: October 21, 2024, 07:09:39 AM »
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  • Referring to the case of Pope Honorius is a red herring. The details are disputed, as St. Robert mentions in multiple places, but Pope Honorius certainly did not CONDEMN any doctrine as "very HARMFUL both to those within and outside the Church" as the Holy Office indeed CONDEMNED the doctrine SBC was preaching at the time. Beside the Holy Office, 3 AAS docuмents were shown where Pope Pius XII clearly teaches baptism of desire and where he clearly approved the Holy Office's teaching with his own ordinary teaching authority.

    "Nor must it be thought that what is expounded in Encyclical Letters does not of itself demand consent, since in writing such Letters the Popes do not exercise the supreme power of their Teaching Authority. For these matters are taught with the ordinary teaching authority, of which it is true to say: “He who heareth you, heareth me”;[3] and generally what is expounded and inculcated in Encyclical Letters already for other reasons appertains to Catholic doctrine. But if the Supreme Pontiffs in their official docuмents purposely pass judgment on a matter up to that time under dispute, it is obvious that that matter, according to the mind and will of the same Pontiffs, cannot be any longer considered a question open to discussion among theologians." https://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius12/p12human.htm

    Three points:

    1. The ordinary teaching authority of Pope Pius XII and the Roman Church taught denial of baptism of desire is very harmful both to those outside and within the Church. Since "he who heareth you, heareth Me", that is equivalent to CHRIST teaching us denial of baptism of desire is very harmful. Who are you to oppose Jesus Christ?

    2 What is taught in Encyclical Letters or Holy Office or other AAS docuмents already pertains to Catholic doctrine. This is not a matter of free theological speculation as some Feeneyites want to make-believe it to be but a clear matter of Catholic doctrine the opposite of which is CONDEMNED as "very harmful to the Church".

    3. When the Roman Pontiffs or the authentic Magisterium of the Roman Church PURPOSELY PASSES JUDGMENT on a matter which even up till then was legitimately disputed, it means that at least after that, "Roma locuta est, causa finita est", which means the matter CANNOT ANY LONGER be considered open but is now closed for all time.


    Offline NishantXavier

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    Re: Feeney the nut job
    « Reply #230 on: October 21, 2024, 07:16:01 AM »
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  • If Ladislaus were a real faithful Roman Catholic, he would say something like, "The Church has spoken. I am, or want to be, a faithful son of the Church. I retract my own erroneous opinions, owing to my ignorance, and I submit to the judgment of the Holy Roman Church, in whose obedience I want to pass from this life."

    St. Thomas Aquinas, the angelic doctor, who edified all with his brilliance and his sanctity, his holiness and his learning, nevertheless said something similar toward the end of his life. Even Jansenius, although he devised a horrible heresy, almost made amends for it by saying in an edifying manner: ""All whatsoever I have affirmed on these various and difficult points, not according to my own sentiment, but according to that of the holy Doctor, I submit to the judgment and sentence of the Apostolic See and the Roman Church, my mother, to be henceforth adhered to if she judges that it must be adhered to, to retract if she so wishes, to condemn and anathematize it if she decrees that it should be condemned and anathematized. For since my tenderest childhood I have been reared in the beliefs of this Church; I imbibed them with my mother's milk; I have grown up and grown old while remaining attached to them; never to my knowledge have I swerved therefrom a hair's-breadth in thought, action or word, and I am still firmly decided to keep this faith until my last breath and to appear with it before the judgment-seat of God." Thus Jansenius, although he gave his name to a heresy, was not himself a heretic, but lived and died in the bosom of the Church."" https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08285a.htm

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Feeney the nut job
    « Reply #231 on: October 21, 2024, 07:36:47 AM »
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  • If Ladislaus were a real faithful Roman Catholic, he would say something like, "The Church has spoken. I am, or want to be, a faithful son of the Church. I retract my own erroneous opinions, owing to my ignorance, and I submit to the judgment of the Holy Roman Church, in whose obedience I want to pass from this life."

    It's never ceases to amaze me how oblivious you are to your own hypocrisy.

    If you were a "faithful Roman Catholic", you would say something like, "The Church has spoken at Vatican II.  I retract my own opinions and accept the teaching of the Church."

    I'm taking issue with a couple clearly-non-infallible opinions of Pius XII.  You on the other hand reject an Ecuмenical Council when a man whom the entire Church universally accepted as Pope, the entire body of bishops, and every theologian accepted as legitimate, orthodox, and perfectly compatible with the Catholic faith.

    It's one hypocritical self-serving self-contradiction after another.

    While R&R minimize the scope of the Holy Ghost's protection of the Church, you exaggerate the scope of infallibility to the point of absurdity, and to the point of making into a cause of mockery against the Church.  When a clearly-non-infallible teaching of a Pope is wrong, it's wrong.  Period.  I'm not going to believe that 2+2=5 if Pius XII said that in some allocution of his.  St. Thomas Aquinas, had he been a "real faithful Roman Catholic," would have accepted the teaching of Innocent II that Masses are valid if the priest merely thinks the words of consecration and would have retracted his own opinion.

    And that's precisely the method whereby you reject the V2 Popes and what everyone (with a handful of exceptions) accepted as a legitimate Ecuмenical Council approved by a legitimate pope.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Feeney the nut job
    « Reply #232 on: October 21, 2024, 08:00:36 AM »
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  • I urge everyone to read Msgr. Fenton's paper on the infallibility of Encyclicals to see the proper Catholic balance with regard to papal infallibility, where he avoids the error by excess of most SVs today and avoids the error by deficiency by most R&R today.

    As often happens with issues that require some nuance and distinctions, the poles develop where each side overreacts to the errors of the other side, to the point of exaggerating their own errors ... and there's this constant feedback loop.

    There are some very real limits to papal infallibility, and yet the protection of the Holy Ghost over the Church is not limited to the once-or-twice-per-century solemn dogmatic definition.  In the typical SV exaggeration, an allocution to midwives might as well be, for all practical intents and purposes, a solemn dogmatic definition.  In the typical R&R understatement, 99% of the Magisterium could turn to garbage and lead souls to Hell, and that's OK as long as those handful of solemn definitions are protected.  There's a balance to be had between these two opposites, and Msgr. Fenton deal with it brilliantly.

    Of the various SVs out there, the Dimond Brothers have in fact landed on this proper balance.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Feeney the nut job
    « Reply #233 on: October 21, 2024, 08:12:16 AM »
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  •  In the typical R&R understatement, 99% of the Magisterium could turn to garbage and lead souls to Hell, and that's OK as long as those handful of solemn definitions are protected.  There's a balance to be had between these two opposites, and Msgr. Fenton deal with it brilliantly.
    Your idea of R&R is altogether wrong. R&R know with certainty that the Church's Magisterium is always infallible, can never "turn to garbage and lead souls to hell." Deo Gratias for the Church's Magisterium! That you think that R&R think that such a thing is possible can very likely be attributed to Fr. Fenton.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Feeney the nut job
    « Reply #234 on: October 21, 2024, 08:28:02 AM »
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  • Your idea of R&R is altogether wrong. R&R know with certainty that the Church's Magisterium is always infallible, can never "turn to garbage and lead souls to hell." Deo Gratias for the Church's Magisterium! That you think that R&R think that such a thing is possible can very likely be attributed to Fr. Fenton.

    Right, I know.  I think you're in the minority, however, in saying that something is "Magisterium" only if it conforms to Tradition.  In any case, the point I'm making here is about the SV exaggeration of infallibility where the 10,000 words in an average Pope Pius XII speech to midwives might as well be a solemn dogmatic definition like the Dogma of the Assumption.  There's no practical difference in terms of their exaggeration of infallibility.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Feeney the nut job
    « Reply #235 on: October 21, 2024, 09:06:46 AM »
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  • Quote
    I think part of the problem is that the term magisterium has been understood in two differnt ways.  Magisterium just referrs to the authority to teach.  Anytime a bishop with jurisdiction teaches, he is exercising his teaching authority, but when a pope or council teaches in a definitive way, they are not only doing so authoritatively; they are, at the same time, binding the faithful to assent to that teaching.  

    Prior to Vatican I, and even after Vatican I, the theologians only considered the pope to be teaching as pope when he taught definitively (ex cathedra). In all other cases - even when he was responding to a dubia in the exercise of his office,  or promulgating a docuмent for the universal Church, his non-definitive teachings were considered to be from the pope "as a private doctor."  It is strange, because they agreed that such teachings were authoritative, yet they nevertheless referred to them as comining from the Pope only in his capacity of a private doctor.  They also distinguished two ways that a pope could teach as a private person: on was writing a private book, and the other was teaching the Church non-definitively.

    The point being, in the second way the term magisterium is used (definitive, ex cathedra teachings) it is true to say everything from the magisterium is infallible.  But not if the term is used to refer to any authoritative, but non-definitive, teaching. 
    Yes.  And the term 'magisterium' had to be expanded, so that V2 could be forced down catholic's throats through "obedience".  V2 is the definition of the modernist-magisterium:  authoritative but not doctrinal.  It's a total oxymoron.  The Modernists got their cake and ate it too.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Feeney the nut job
    « Reply #236 on: October 21, 2024, 09:30:07 AM »
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  • Quote
    There are some very real limits to papal infallibility, and yet the protection of the Holy Ghost over the Church is not limited to the once-or-twice-per-century solemn dogmatic definition. 
    Ok, but what does the "protection of the Holy Ghost" mean, in relation to the Magisterium?  Such a phrase is too general to be useful.


    The Holy Ghost protects the pope from error when the pope CLEARLY teaches something to be believed by the entire church (i.e. dogma).

    a) If the pope's teaching isn't clear or 
    b) if he's not forcing catholics to believe something (i.e. if he's not using his teaching authority) or
    c) if he's not teaching the entire church

    Then it's not part of the (historically-narrow) definition of the magisterium.  How can the Holy Ghost protect any of the scenarios above?  Why would He protect unclear, non-authoritative, and specific ideals to only PART of the Church? 

    The above is exactly the situation which you correctly lament, i.e. Pius XII's speech to midwives.  There's no way this can be authoritative because it lacked any of the hallmarks of specificity, authority and ecuмenical (i.e. it did not apply to the entire church) weight.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Feeney the nut job
    « Reply #237 on: October 21, 2024, 09:32:11 AM »
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  • I think part of the problem is that the term magisterium has been understood in two differnt ways.  Magisterium just referrs to the authority to teach.  Anytime a bishop with jurisdiction teaches, he is exercising his teaching authority, but when a pope or council teaches in a definitive way, they are not only doing so authoritatively; they are, at the same time, binding the faithful to assent to that teaching. 

    Prior to Vatican I, and even after Vatican I, the theologians only considered the pope to be teaching as pope when he taught definitively (ex cathedra). In all other cases - even when he was responding to a dubia in the exercise of his office,  or promulgating a docuмent for the universal Church, his non-definitive teachings were considered to be from the pope "as a private doctor."  It is strange, because they agreed that such teachings were authoritative, yet they nevertheless referred to them as comining from the Pope only in his capacity of a private doctor.  They also distinguished two ways that a pope could teach as a private person: on was writing a private book, and the other was teaching the Church non-definitively.

    The point being, in the second way the term magisterium is used (definitive, ex cathedra teachings) it is true to say everything from the magisterium is infallible.  But not if the term is used to refer to any authoritative, but non-definitive, teaching.
    Simply, "The Magisterium" is nothing other than the Church teaching us, that is what the Church does. The Church is the authority. This is what the papal quotes are testifying to and this is what the popes say. The reason why   the Magisterium is always infallible is because; "the Church is a sharer in the Divine Magisterium, and by His Divine benefit is unable to be mistaken." - PPXI Divini Illius Magistri (#18), Dec. 31, 1929

    The pope is not the Church, neither are the bishops, Fathers, etc.

    The Church's Solemn or Extraordinary Magisterium is certainly infallible, but that's when the Church, through an unusual gesture such as through a Council, or through an ex-cathedra statement by the pope, teaches us. 

    What "The Magisterium" is not, is the pope, the Church's hierarchy, nor is "The Magisterium" the saints, theologians, Fathers, Doctors, etc.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Feeney the nut job
    « Reply #238 on: October 21, 2024, 10:39:00 AM »
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  • One of the many errors of Bishop Sanborn is equating authoritative teachings with infallible teachings.  No, infallibility and authority are distinct.  Another error is imagining that a person must have the intention of promoting the common good to have authority, even if he legally holds an office to which jurisdiction is attached.  That has to be the most absurd novelty I have ever heard, yet he has adhered to it for decades. 

    Agreed.  You seem to have a balanced view of the question.  Not only Bishop Sanborn, but most SVs have unfotunately exaggerated the scope of infallibility in reaction against the errors of R&R in minimizing the protection of the Holy Ghost over the Church and the papacy.

    So, one root cause of this error is a misunderstanding/misinterpretation of the notion that one is required to give "internal assent" to all authoritative teachings of the Church (even the "merely authentic", aka authoritative but not infallible).  But internal assent doesn't mean what they think it means.  Again, cf. Msgr. Fenton explaining the term with nuance in his treatment of Encylicals.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Feeney the nut job
    « Reply #239 on: October 21, 2024, 11:04:27 AM »
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  • But the Church teaches through men; the authority of the Church is exercisd through the Pope and bishops.  But authority can be exercised at different levels.  When a pope teaches non-definitively, it is still authoritative, even if it is not infallible. The same goes for the other bishops when they teach their diocese. 

    That being said (and here is where I think we agree), a teaching is only considered to be an actual teaching of the Church - of the faith - if it is proposed as de fide; and only teachings that are proposed definitively (infallibly) are de fide.

    So, all the teachings of "the Church" (all de fide teachings) are infallible.  The teachings of the pope and/or bishops, on the other hand, are not - even if the teachings in question are taught authoritatively.
    Yes, the true teachings of the Church come to us through men, i.e.  popes, bishops, priests, saints etc., and we know they are infallible teachings of the Magisterium  because these teachings have been taught by the Church always and everywhere since the time of the Apostles, this is the Church's Universal Magisterium and are all de fide. And yes, on rare occasions the pope will declare one of the de fide doctrines ex cathedra, at which point we call that doctrine "a dogma."

    Per V1, "new doctrines," i.e. the new doctrines of V2 do not have the divine protection from error because they're new, and being new is one way we know those doctrines are not contained in the Church's Magisterium.

    Quote
    One of the many errors of Bishop Sanborn is equating authoritative teachings with infallible teachings.  No, infallibility and authority are distinct.  Another error is imagining that a person must have the intention of promoting the common good to have authority, even if he legally holds an office to which jurisdiction is attached.  That has to be the most absurd novelty I have ever heard, yet he has adhered to it for decades. 
    Yes, we agree completely here. One thing V2 has done is create a constant confusion between our primary obligation which is to adhere to truth even with our life if need be,  and our secondary obligation to obey authority.  
     
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse