I can't believe you said above that you believe Pope Pius XII should be anathematized. 

Why not?  He’s not a canonized saint.  There’s no certainty that he saved his soul.  And he said/allowed many, many progressive things.  It’s not wrong to criticize a pope's papacy.  He’s not an oracle or a Demi-god. 

Why not?  He’s not a canonized saint.  There’s no certainty that he saved his soul.  And he said/allowed many, many progressive things.  It’s not wrong to criticize a pope's papacy.  He’s not an oracle or a Demi-god.

What next? You're going to anathematize Pius IX as well for teaching invincible ignorance in his Magisterium? Pius X for teaching BOD in his Catechisms? At that point, you may as well declare that you've renounced the Roman Catholic faith and become an Old Catholic apostate and heretic yourself. Not you, but Ladislaus in particular.

Brother, I understand and appreciate your zeal for the faith. There's no doubt EENS has been attacked in various ways both before and after Vatican II. Many simply did not believe it any longer for reasons that have nothing to do with bod and would outright deny the dogma. 

Thank you. What people need to understand is that they had to kill EENS and make the Church unnecessary before V2 could happen. Cushing, Wight, and those involved in Fr. Feeney's case were no defenders of the Catholic Faith. They were destroyers and architects of the V2 religion. And Fr. Feeney, regardless of what one thinks about the position he took later on BOD, was the one who stood up and was nailed for it. Trads need to quit saying it was over BOD because it wasn't. 

My suggestion to you is to preach EENS and work on converting non-Catholics without mentioning bod, not to create a schism over it. 

I have not created a schism over it at any point in this thread. I defended the good reputations of individuals who were falsely maligned. Writing stories about growing up in abusive religious cults is very en vogue right now for those who have decided to play agnostic. Everyone wants a victim story to place their own unhappiness at the feet of another, when in reality they only need to look at a basic catechism of why God made me. But Catholics shouldn't take the memoirs of someone who works on an LBGTQ charity and claims she grew up abused in religion to run down other Catholic groups. Did it need to be said? Are any of these people alive? No? Then what was the point? The podcaster said "we're going to do another interview on the doctrinal issues."  How many people listen to a doctrinal session as opposed to juicy gossip? In essence, this was cheap clickbait. Who is sewing schism here? 

 The problem you mentioned of souls lapsing into the Eastern Orthodox sects requires greater introspection.

It was an observation, but thanks for your concern.  If you search this forum, you will find numerous posts from me on the untenability of the (un)orthodox.  And they are outside the Church, where there is no salvation. But I have seen too many sedes who got themselves into hot water once they really started looking at the depth and timeline of the crisis and the magical 1958 number didn't work any more. Some of them used to post here and are no more.  

If you believe 150 years of Popes (going back to Pius IX) were gravely mistaken on bod, whats to stop them saying 1000 years of Popes were gravely mistaken on filioque? My main issue here is Church indefectibility. It's heretical to say the Magisterium of the Church can give or teach heresy to the faithful.

I don't believe Pius IX was gravely mistaken on BOD. Nor that the Magisterium can give heresy to the faithful. But we are afield again. 

And what about the rest of the world, you know, all those who choose to not know the Church to be the true Church?

"And when he is come, he will convict the world of sin, and of justice, and of judgment. 9 Of sin: because they believed not in me...  [John 16:9]

Christ Himself said that it is a sin to not believe in Him. No disclaimer. Christ and the Church are one and the same, therefore it is a sin not to know and believe in the Church - period. 

There are other points taught in the Baltimore Catechism in need of correction and/or could do a better job explaining.

Quote

"Almost everybody who writes or comments on this subject explains the doctrine by explaining it away, as we shall see further on. He begins by affirming the truth of the axiom, Extra Ecclesiam, etc., and ends by denying it-while continuing to insist vigorously that he is not doing so. He seems to think it a clever thing to state the formula, then to weasel out of it." - Fr. Wathen, Who Shall Ascend?

Fr. Wathen was mistaken. Also, Fr. Wathen does not take his errors to their logical conclusion. If Fr. Wathen is right, multiple Popes are heretics. It would then clearly follow the Magisterium defected and the Church became heretical.

Secondly, your private interpretation of Scripture is wrong. Read John 9:41: "Jesus said to them: If you were blind, you should not have sin: but now you say: We see. Your sin remaineth." So the Savior says those who are genuinely blind (like the invincibly ignorant) do not have sin. It is therefore a sin on your part to impute sin to them. Someone in say North Korea where Christians are persecuted and who does not even have access to the Gospel certainly isn't in sin because of the unfortunate accidents of his birth which he in no way chose. If you think was, you are a heartless wretch who in no way knows or loves the Heart of God. You should carefully reflect on your own soul. Love God, love souls, preach the Gospel, live the Faith, try to win souls to Christ, that's good. But to be willfully blind like the Pharisees were and some of you Feeneyites/wathenites seem to be is not good at all.

Falsely imputing sin to others is itself a sin on your part. Pius IX says invincible ignorance is as dogmatically certain as EENS. That means someone who denies invincible ignorance is a heretic. Next, read Mat 18:17 after Jn 9:41. It is only those who willfuly refuse to hear the Church, as Christ Himself in this passage, and as Pope Pius XII confirms in his authoritative Magisterial explanation, who are deemed to be outside the Church and be lost. Since some of you deliberately refuse to hear the Church on this subject, take care that that does not apply to you. It does not apply to those who have never heard of the Church. To those who have rejected the Church, Mat 18, yes.

 Someone in say North Korea where Christians are persecuted and who does not even have access to the Gospel certainly isn't in sin because of the unfortunate accidents of his birth which he in no way chose. If you think was, you are a heartless wretch who in no way knows or loves the Heart of God. You should carefully reflect on your own soul. Love God, love souls, preach the Gospel, live the Faith, try to win souls to Christ, that's good. But to be willfully blind like the Pharisees were and some of you Feeneyites/wathenites seem to be is not good at all.

Falsely imputing sin to others is itself a sin on your part. Pius IX says invincible ignorance is as dogmatically certain as EENS. That means someone who denies invincible ignorance is a heretic. Next, read Mat 18:17 after Jn 9:41. It is only those who willfuly refuse to hear the Church, as Christ Himself in this passage, and as Pope Pius XII confirms in his authoritative Magisterial explanation, who are deemed to be outside the Church and be lost. Since some of you deliberately refuse to hear the Church on this subject, take care that that does not apply to you. It does not apply to those who have never heard of the Church. To those who have rejected the Church, Mat 18, yes.

Those who are invincibly ignorantly are damned not for the sin of infidelity but for their other sins.

Pius IX on invincible ignorance and souls in good faith able to attain eternal life: "There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments." https://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius09/p9quanto.htm

If you reject this doctrine, Stubborn or Ladislaus or whoever, you are a neo-Calvinist heretic who does not believe in Catholic doctrine but in your own heretical and warped perversion of it. You do not know God's supreme kindness and clemency which Pius IX speaks of. And you are not willing to listen to your betters in the Church like Pope Pius IX who teach you about it. What did Christ say about that in Mat 18:17? He said whoever refuses to listen to the Church has rejected Him and is lost. Again, be careful not to be that person who lives and dies obstinately refusing the Church. I pray for your souls to be cured of the wilful spiritual blindness some of you are in, wanting to declare Pius IX, Pius X and Pius XII all to be heretics for bod and invincible ignorance when they are some of the best Popes in history. If you start anathematizing Pius XII, like the schismatic Ladislaus wants, you'll deny Pope St. Pius X's canonization next. Pope St. Pius X is of course a saint but he was both beatified and ultimately canonized by Pope Pius XII. If you anathematize one, you can anathematize the other. You are thus on the path of becoming Old Catholics and or Orthodox schismatics. Turn back before it is too late to save your soul, but it is not up to me to help save you. You must will it.

Divine light and grace means the gospel, Catholic faith and baptism. It does not mean someone is saved outside the church without baptism or ignorant of the incarnation of Christ and the Blessed Holy Trinity.

Pope Pius IX, Nostis et Nobiscuм (# 10), Dec. 8, 1849: “In particular, ensure that the faithful are deeply and thoroughly convinced of the truth of the doctrine that the Catholic faith is necessary for attaining salvation.

Pope Pius IX, Vatican I (+1870): “… no one can ‘assent to the preaching of the Gospel,’ as he must to attain salvation, without the illumination and inspiration of the Holy Spirit, who gives to all a sweetness in consenting to and believing the truth.”

Pope Pius IX, Ubi primum (# 10), June 17, 1847: “For ‘there is one universal Church outside of which no one at all is saved; it contains regular and secular prelates along with those under their jurisdiction, who all profess one Lord, one faith and one baptism.”

Pope Pius IX- Syllabus of Modern Errors- Proposition 16, Dec. 8, 1854: “Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation, and arrive at eternal salvation.” – Condemned


Ephesians 5:8 “For you were heretofore darkness, but now light in the Lord. Walk then as children of the light.”
1 Thess. 5:4-5 “But you, brethren, are not in darkness… For all you are the children of the light.”   

Colossians 1:12-13: “Giving thanks to God the Father, who hath made us worthy to be partakers of the lot of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of the Son of His love.”

1 Peter 2:9: “But you are a chosen generation… a purchased people: that you may declare his virtues, who hath called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.”

2 Corinthians 4:3-4: “And if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.”

2 Timothy 1:10: “But is now made manifest by the illumination of our Savior Jesus Christ, who hath destroyed death, and hath brought to light life and incorruption by the Gospel.”

Not yet, no. Thinking every one of the 8 billion people on Earth has access to the net is mistaken.

Statista: "As of July 2024, there were 5.45 billion internet users worldwide, which amounted to 67.1 percent of the global population." So over 3.5 billion people don't have or use the internet yet.

Estimates of the unevangelized population of the globe differ, but most would put it around 2-3 billion.

"Of the 55 least evangelized countries, 97% of their population lives within the 10/40 Window. Unless something changes, huge numbers of these unreached people groups will go out into eternity never having heard the Gospel. Why? Well, researcher Justin Long has estimated that only about 10% of the global missionary force is working there. One reason is that in many 10/40 Window countries, open evangelism is difficult and even impossible because of governmental restrictions." https://home.snu.edu/~hculbert/1040.htm

What Catholics need to do is pray and work to reach the unreached and share with them the good news of the gospel in love. If we pray well and work hard, Christ's commission to preach the Gospel to all can be accomplished in maybe about 10-15 years, after which indeed no one would not have heard of Christ. If we have love for souls, we will do that. Not only them, but even their descendants will then be born in regions of the globe that have heard the Gospel. As of now, they dont have it. Condemning vast billions for being in the wrong place is not of God and is Feeneyite idiocy.

From the source above:

• "Center of population: Two-thirds of the world's population -- more than 4.4 billion people -- live in the 10/40 Window.
• Unreached and unevangelized: 90% of people in the 10/40 Window are unevangelized. Many have never heard the Gospel message even once. There are either no Christians or not enough of a Christian movement in many cultures of the 10/40 Window to carry out vibrant near-neighbor evangelism. If those groups are to be evangelized, believers will need to leave their own culture and enter another one where they will seek to plant the gospel, perhaps even learning a new language in order to communicate. Such cross-cultural evangelism is required because there are people groups with no church movements that are understandable or relevant to them."

90% of 4.4 billion in the 10/40 window are unevangelized and haven't heard the Gospel even once. As I said, it's at least 2-3 billion people. Some would put it even near 3.5-4 billion people, overlapping with many who don't have access to the internet, don't speak English, don't live in free countries etc. Catholics should pray for them in love.