Author Topic: Feeney the nut job (Read 32619 times)

Stubborn · « **Reply #135 on:** October 18, 2024, 11:08:17 AM »

Quote from: MarkM on October 18, 2024, 10:33:55 AM

Now, among those things which the Church has always preached and will never cease to preach is contained also that infallible statement by which we are taught that there is no salvation outside the Church.
However, this dogma must be understood in that sense in which the Church herself understands it....

This line (red text) always gets me. The crooks always have to add a disclaimer somewhere in order to render the dogma meaningless.

dymphnaw · « **Reply #136 on:** October 18, 2024, 11:29:47 AM »

Quote from: Motorede on October 17, 2024, 09:00:56 AM

Saint Elizabeth Ann Seton started her religious order taking some of her younger children with her.

St. Eliazabeth was a widow.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #137 on:** October 18, 2024, 11:54:48 AM »

Quote from: Stubborn on October 18, 2024, 11:08:17 AM

This line (red text) always gets me. The crooks always have to add a disclaimer somewhere in order to render the dogma meaningless.

Indeed, it's this principle that the Modernists exploit to engage in their "development" of doctrine, and the key is in the tense. We must understand dogma as the Church UNDERSTANDS it (present tense), meaning that the Church's undrestanding TODAY might be different than when it was defined. So, the anti-Modernist version of this is that we must understand dogma the way the Church UNDERSTOOD it (past tense) when it was defined. Modernist development of dogma relies upon swapping out the past tense with the present. What's ludicrous, and a diabolical inversion (as the devil enjoys inverting God's truth) is that many people consider you a heretic for simply believing what the dogma says at face value, that you're a heretic if you don't believe that "there's no salvation outside the Church" ACTUALLY means that those outside the Church can be saved, i.e. you're a heretic "Feeneyite" if you don't believe that the dogma means the exact opposite of what it says. That's how bad it's gotten. When Cushing announced the excommunication of Father Feeney, the secular newspaper headlines read, "Chatholics affirm that there can be salvation outside the Church." Cushing and Father Feeney's superiors went around explicitly and verbatim rejecting the dogmatic definition. And you have these Trads who think that Cushing was some kind of defender of the faith for suppressing the evil heresiarch Father Feeney, whose heresy consisted in actually believing what the Church taught,, so championing the manifest heresiarch over the orthodox Father Feeney. I refer to them as Cushingites.

NishantXavier · « **Reply #138 on:** October 18, 2024, 01:15:01 PM »

"Q. 509. Are all bound to belong to the Church?
A. All are bound to belong to the Church, and he who knows the Church to be the true Church and remains out of it cannot be saved.
[...]
Q. 513. Why must the true Church be visible?
A. The true Church must be visible because its founder, Jesus Christ, commanded us under pain of condemnation to hear the Church; and He could not in justice command us to hear a Church that could not be seen and known."

http://www.baltimore-catechism.com/lesson11.htm

See how clear and consistent the Church has been in teaching the same Catholic sense, not in the heretical and warped dimondite or feeneyite sense. Calvinists and Jansenists also believe in predestination (a catholic dogma), but not in the Catholic sense but in a heretical and warped sense peculiar to those two heretical sects separated from the Catholic Church.

This is the same sense as taught in the Holy Office letter. Once one knows, one is bound to enter the visible Church.

songbird · « **Reply #139 on:** October 18, 2024, 01:16:29 PM »

Father Muller wrote book on EENS, and I believe he said it very well. Summa says "Baptism of Perfect Contrition". Where did "desire" a flimsy word come from?! Christ instructed apostles to teach, and it was repent and be baptized. Our Lady, "Repent, Repent, Pray, Pray.

Gray2023 · « **Reply #140 on:** October 18, 2024, 01:20:16 PM »

Quote from: Maria Auxiliadora on October 18, 2024, 05:09:59 AM

Gray,

St. Athanasius was "excommunicated" for disobedience, "Why would we still try to listen to him today?"
ABL was "excommunicated" for disobedience, "Why would we still try to listen to him today?"
AB Vigano was "excommunicated" for disobedience, "Why would we still try to listen to him today?"

Funny, Fr. Feeney will continue to be slandered for defending the 3 Dogmas on EENS precisely because they are the ones constantly being attacked but I never met any of them that even know what dogma is and never read the three dogmas. So, for your benefit, here they are:

https://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius10/p10moath.htm

In the link above, The Oath Against Modernism, the word dogma appears 6 times. Why?

And Pascendi Dominici Gregis? 26 times! Why?

https://www.vatican.va/content/pius-x/en/encyclicals/docuмents/hf_p-x_enc_19070908_pascendi-dominici-gregis.html

I am only here because I was addressed.

I think these acts of disobedience (the vice) have made the Crisis last longer.

These men might be right with what they were trying to get people to understand, but the fruits of all these actions have not proven to be good. We might have little pockets of Tradition, but the lack of charity between each group is abominable.

If they went to Rome, held strong to their belief in the Crisis and then were excommunicated or martyred, then I would be more apt to believe that God was behind them and not their desperation to fix the situation their way. God can do anything with those who cooperate with His grace. I think we have forgotten this.

Obedience is, without doubt, more meritorious than any austerity. And what greater austerity can be thought of than that of keeping one's will constantly submissive and obedient? ----St. Catherine of Bologna

Obedience is a penance of the soul, and for that reason a sacrifice more acceptable than all corporal penances. Thence it happens that God loves more the least degree of obedience in thee, than all the other services thou mayest think to render Him. ----St. John of the Cross

To pick up a straw from the ground through obedience is more meritorious than to preach, to fast, to use the discipline to blood, and to make long prayers, of one's own will. ----St. Alphonsus Rodriguez

All the good of creatures consists in the fulfillment of the Divine Will. And this is never better attained than by the practice of obedience, in which is found the annihilation of self-love and the true liberty of sons of God. This is the reason why souls truly good, experience such great joy and sweetness in obedience. ----St. Vincent de Pau

Would you know who are true monks? Those who by mortification have brought their will under such control that they no longer have any wish except to obey the precepts and counsels of their Superior. ----St. Fulgentius

The devil, seeing that there is no shorter road to the summit of perfection than that of obedience, artfully insinuates many repugnances and difficulties under color of good, to prevent us from following it. ----St. Teresa

I really do not blame them, and I really think they were trying to be good Catholics, but I fear that they lacked some courage.

I won't comment again unless addressed directly. Hint, don't call me by name if you don't want me to reply.

NishantXavier · « **Reply #141 on:** October 18, 2024, 01:20:42 PM »

"Therefore, no one will be saved who, knowing the Church to have been divinely established by Christ, nevertheless refuses to submit to the Church or withholds obedience from the Roman Pontiff, the Vicar of Christ on earth."

Amen. Btw, just as it's indubitably clear to anyone who reads the relevant docuмents of that time period that Pope Pius XII was well aware of everything the Holy Office did in his name and approved their doctrine (with 3 AAS docuмents no less), it clearly follows that Pius XII is a heretic if what the Church under him deemed to be "very harmful both to those within and outside the Church" is in fact somehow the true doctrine of the Church. But it doesn't even end there. Leo XIII approved the Baltimore Catechism teaching both bod and EENS in the same Catholic sense taught by Pius XII. Thus, if as Feeneyites erroneously hold, that sense "contradicts the dogma" (being like Calvinists and Jansenists, misunderstanding true Catholic EENS/predestination), Leo XII would be a heretic too.

There's something called reductio ad absurdum. It's used for proofs in mathematics and logic. When you reach an absurd conclusion, like that 99% of traditional clergy, traditional popes etc are heretics or teaching heretical doctrine, you stop and consider the possibility you yourself are gravely mistaken. That's what Feeneyites should do here. Instead, they stubbornly refuse to admit they are at war with at least the past 150 years of Roman Pontiffs themselves. Leo XIII would have excommunicated Feeneyites just like Pius XII did. Either (1) those 150 years of Popes were all heretics, or (2) the Feeneyites are wrong about their heretical, warped perversion of EENS, which is totally different from the true traditional Catholic doctrine of EENS. That makes it real simple for real Catholics.

M1913 · « **Reply #142 on:** October 18, 2024, 01:32:28 PM »

Quote from: Gray2023 on October 18, 2024, 01:20:16 PM

I am only here because I was addressed.

I think these acts of disobedience (the vice) have made the Crisis last longer.

These men might be right with what they were trying to get people to understand, but the fruits of all these actions have not proven to be good. We might have little pockets of Tradition, but the lack of charity between each group is abominable.

If they went to Rome, held strong to their belief in the Crisis and then were excommunicated or martyred, then I would be more apt to believe that God was behind them and not their desperation to fix the situation their way. God can do anything with those who cooperate with His grace. I think we have forgotten this.

Obedience is, without doubt, more meritorious than any austerity. And what greater austerity can be thought of than that of keeping one's will constantly submissive and obedient? ----St. Catherine of Bologna

Obedience is a penance of the soul, and for that reason a sacrifice more acceptable than all corporal penances. Thence it happens that God loves more the least degree of obedience in thee, than all the other services thou mayest think to render Him. ----St. John of the Cross

To pick up a straw from the ground through obedience is more meritorious than to preach, to fast, to use the discipline to blood, and to make long prayers, of one's own will. ----St. Alphonsus Rodriguez

All the good of creatures consists in the fulfillment of the Divine Will. And this is never better attained than by the practice of obedience, in which is found the annihilation of self-love and the true liberty of sons of God. This is the reason why souls truly good, experience such great joy and sweetness in obedience. ----St. Vincent de Pau

Would you know who are true monks? Those who by mortification have brought their will under such control that they no longer have any wish except to obey the precepts and counsels of their Superior. ----St. Fulgentius

The devil, seeing that there is no shorter road to the summit of perfection than that of obedience, artfully insinuates many repugnances and difficulties under color of good, to prevent us from following it. ----St. Teresa

I really do not blame them, and I really think they were trying to be good Catholics, but I fear that they lacked some courage.

I won't comment again unless addressed directly. Hint, don't call me by name if you don't want me to reply.

Archbishop Lefebvre - On True and False Obedience

"It is the teaching of the Church that obedience is part of justice, one of the four cardinal virtues, which are in turn subordinate to the theological virtues of faith, hope and charity. Faith is greater than obedience ! Therefore, if obedience acts to harm the faith, then a Catholic has a duty not to obey his superior." "Now sometimes the things commanded by a superior are against God, therefore superiors are not to be obeyed in all things."

- St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theoligica II-IIQ. 104

“Satan’s master stroke will therefore be to spread the revolutionary principles introduced into the Church by the authority of the Church itself, placing this authority in a situation of incoherence and permanent contradiction; so long as this ambiguity has not been dispersed, disasters will multiply within the Church. […] We must acknowledge that the trick has been well played and that Satan’s lie has been masterfully utilized. The Church will destroy Herself through obedience. […] You must obey! Whom or what must we obey? We don’t know exactly. Woe to the man who does not consent. He thereby earns the right to be trampled under-foot, to be calumniated, to be deprived of everything which allowed him to live. He is a heretic, a schismatic; let him die – that is all he deserves.” (October 13, 1974)

“Satan has really succeeded in pulling off a master stroke: he is succeeding in having those who keep the Catholic Faith condemned by the very people who should be defending and propagating it. […] Satan reigns through ambiguity and incoherence, which are his means of combat, and which deceive men of little Faith. Satan’s master stroke, by which he is bringing about the auto-destruction of the Church, is therefore to use obedience in order to destroy the Faith: authority against Truth.“ (October 13, 1974)

“One must understand the meaning of obedience and must distinguish between blind obedience and the virtue of obedience. Indiscriminate obedience is actually a sin against the virtue of obedience.” (Interview, July 1978)

“How could we, by a blind and servile obedience, go along with these schismatics who ask us to collaborate in their enterprise of demolishing the Church?” (Conference, Econe, August 2, 1976)

“Every Catholic can and must resist anyone in the Church who lays hands on his Faith, the Faith of the Eternal Church, upheld by his childhood catechism. The defense of his Faith is the first duty of every Christian, more especially of every priest and bishop. Wherever an order carries with it the danger of corrupting Faith and morals, “disobedience” becomes a grave duty.”(Archbishop Lefebvre, Letter to Friends & Benefactors, no. 9, 1975).

"What should I do? I am told: ‘You must obey. You are disobedient. You do not have the right to continue doing what you are doing, for you divide the Church.’ ” What is a law? What is a decree? What obliges one to obey? “A law,” Leo XIII says, “is the ordering of reason to the common good, but not towards the common evil. This is so obvious that if a rule is ordered towards an evil, then it is no longer a law.” Leo XIII said this explicitly in his encyclical “Libertas.” In other words, a law which is not for the common good is not a law and consequently, one is not obliged to obey it." (Archbishop Lefebvre, Conference in Montreal, Canada, May, 1982).

“Now our disobedience is motivated by the need to keep the Catholic Faith. The orders being given us clearly express that they are being given us in order to oblige us to submit without reserve to the Second Vatican Council, to the post-conciliar reforms, and to the prescriptions of the Holy See, that is to say, to the orientations and acts which are undermining our Faith and destroying the Church. It is impossible for us to do this. To collaborate in the destruction of the Church is to betray the Church and to betray Our Lord Jesus Christ. Now all the theologians worthy of this name teach that if the pope, by his acts, destroys the Church, we cannot obey him (Vitoria: Obras, pp.486-487; Suarez: De fide, disp.X, sec.VI, no.16; St. Robert Bellarmine: de Rom. Pont., Book 2, Ch.29; Cornelius a Lapide: ad Gal. 2,11, etc.) and he must be respectfully, but publicly, rebuked.” (Archbishop Lefebvre, “Can Obedience Oblige us to Disobey?” from the July 1988 edition of “The Angelus Magazine”, statement originally given March 29th, 1988)

From the "Suppressed Interview of 1978"
What about those bishops who are not liberals but still oppose and criticize you?
Their opposition is based on an inaccurate understanding of obedience to the pope. It is, perhaps, a well-meant obedience, which could be traced to the ultramontane obedience of the last century, which in those days was good because the popes were good. However, today, it is a blind obedience, which has little to do with a practice and acceptance of true Catholic faith. At this stage it is relevant to remind Catholics allover the world that obedience to the pope is not a primary virtue. The hierarchy of virtues starts with the three theological virtues of faith, hope and charity followed by the four cardinal virtues of justice, temperance, prudence and fortitude. Obedience is a derivative of the cardinal virtue of justice. Therefore it is far from ranking first in the hierarchy of virtues.

"As soon as authority fails its mandate, it also loses its right to obedience. When the Pope by his policies leads us into contacts with Protestants and other religions, in such a way that we lose our faith, in that case the Pope forfeits the right to obedience by his subordinates." (Archbishop Lefebvre, as quoted in Apologia Pro Marcel Lefebvre, statement originally quoted in The National Catholic Register, 7 August 1977)

Stubborn · « **Reply #143 on:** October 18, 2024, 01:46:29 PM »

Quote from: MarkM on October 18, 2024, 01:15:01 PM

"Q. 509. Are all bound to belong to the Church?
A. All are bound to belong to the Church, and he who knows the Church to be the true Church and remains out of it cannot be saved.
[...]

And what about the rest of the world, you know, all those who choose to not know the Church to be the true Church?

"And when he is come, he will convict the world of sin, and of justice, and of judgment. 9 Of sin: because they believed not in me... [John 16:9]

Christ Himself said that it is a sin to not believe in Him. No disclaimer. Christ and the Church are one and the same, therefore it is a sin not to know and believe in the Church - period.

There are other points taught in the Baltimore Catechism in need of correction and/or could do a better job explaining.

"Almost everybody who writes or comments on this subject explains the doctrine by explaining it away, as we shall see further on. He begins by affirming the truth of the axiom, Extra Ecclesiam, etc., and ends by denying it-while continuing to insist vigorously that he is not doing so. He seems to think it a clever thing to state the formula, then to weasel out of it." - Fr. Wathen, Who Shall Ascend?

Comrade · « **Reply #144 on:** October 18, 2024, 02:06:55 PM »

St. Augustine, Against Julian, Book 5, Chap. 4: “Of the number of the elect and predestined, even those who have led the very worst kind of life are led to repentance through the goodness of God… Not one of them perishes, regardless of his age at death; never be it said that a man predestined to life would be permitted to end his life without the sacrament of the Mediator [Baptism]. Because of these men, our Lord says: ‘This is the will of him who sent me, the Father, that I should lose nothing of what he has given me.’”

OABrownson1876 · « **Reply #145 on:** October 18, 2024, 03:03:52 PM »

Why is it that the anti-Fr. Feeney crowd conveniently forgets that Cardinal Humberto Medeiros (consecrated a bishop in 1966) visited the St. Benedict Center in 1972 and lifted the "excommunication" of Fr. Feeney? Fr. Feeney did not recant anything. The late Mike Malone (author of Only Begotten) was there, and told us at a Catholic conference years ago that Fr. Feeney recited the Athanasian Creed in Greek. Here are the links to the Mike Malone talk.

Mike Malone, pt 1

Mike Malone, pt 2

AnthonyPadua · « **Reply #146 on:** October 18, 2024, 05:01:37 PM »

Quote from: OABrownson1876 on October 18, 2024, 03:03:52 PM

Why is it that the anti-Fr. Feeney crowd conveniently forgets that Cardinal Humberto Medeiros (consecrated a bishop in 1966) visited the St. Benedict Center in 1972 and lifted the "excommunication" of Fr. Feeney? Fr. Feeney did not recant anything. The late Mike Malone (author of Only Begotten) was there, and told us at a Catholic conference years ago that Fr. Feeney recited the Athanasian Creed in Greek. Here are the links to the Mike Malone talk.

Mike Malone, pt 1

Mike Malone, pt 2

Because they have a mental block. They cannot accept the dogma EENS so they make up strawmans, fallacies, sophism and logical contradictions to justify their denial of doctrine.

That mark guy is the perfect example, using fallible sources to change the infallible. Conflating different things, taking things to the extreme by making assumptions ("Pius 12th must be a heretic then" etc). Siding with the enemies of the Church who promoted vatican 2, repeating their arguments while ignoring any information that challenges them.

Should this be called Feeney derangement syndrome?

AnthonyPadua · « **Reply #147 on:** October 18, 2024, 05:03:06 PM »

Quote from: MarkM on October 18, 2024, 01:20:42 PM

"Therefore, no one will be saved who, knowing the Church to have been divinely established by Christ, nevertheless refuses to submit to the Church or withholds obedience from the Roman Pontiff, the Vicar of Christ on earth."

Amen. Btw, just as it's indubitably clear to anyone who reads the relevant docuмents of that time period that Pope Pius XII was well aware of everything the Holy Office did in his name and approved their doctrine (with 3 AAS docuмents no less), it clearly follows that Pius XII is a heretic if what the Church under him deemed to be "very harmful both to those within and outside the Church" is in fact somehow the true doctrine of the Church. But it doesn't even end there. Leo XIII approved the Baltimore Catechism teaching both bod and EENS in the same Catholic sense taught by Pius XII. Thus, if as Feeneyites erroneously hold, that sense "contradicts the dogma" (being like Calvinists and Jansenists, misunderstanding true Catholic EENS/predestination), Leo XII would be a heretic too.

There's something called reductio ad absurdum. It's used for proofs in mathematics and logic. When you reach an absurd conclusion, like that 99% of traditional clergy, traditional popes etc are heretics or teaching heretical doctrine, you stop and consider the possibility you yourself are gravely mistaken. That's what Feeneyites should do here. Instead, they stubbornly refuse to admit they are at war with at least the past 150 years of Roman Pontiffs themselves. Leo XIII would have excommunicated Feeneyites just like Pius XII did. Either (1) those 150 years of Popes were all heretics, or (2) the Feeneyites are wrong about their heretical, warped perversion of EENS, which is totally different from the true traditional Catholic doctrine of EENS. That makes it real simple for real Catholics.

Do you think everything in the Holy Office is infallible? Do you know that no catechism meets the criteria for infallibility?

Ladislaus · « **Reply #148 on:** October 18, 2024, 06:09:33 PM »

Quote from: MarkM on October 18, 2024, 01:20:42 PM

"Therefore, no one will be saved who, knowing the Church to have been divinely established by Christ, nevertheless refuses to submit to the Church or withholds obedience from the Roman Pontiff, the Vicar of Christ on earth."

Amen. Btw, just as it's indubitably clear to anyone who reads the relevant docuмents of that time period that Pope Pius XII was well aware of everything the Holy Office did in his name and approved their doctrine ...

Pius XII was in error. What are you moronically claiming?, that his every word of the long-winded (having paved the way for the Wojtyla in that area) speeches is infallible and irreformable. Cardinal Franzelin was cited above saying the exact opposite, referencing the case of Honorius who was so bad in some of his teaching that he was later anathematized by future Popes/Councils. Those opposed to the definition of infallibility at Vatican I cited his example as a contradiction of infallibility, but the Pope and Fathers defined it anyway by pointing out the proper distinctions regarding when a pope was and was not infallible (but evidently you missed the memo). Innocent II committed a grave error in his teaching, claiming that the Mass was valid even if the priest merely thought the words of consecration, and St. Thomas took him to task and excoriated him over it.

Pius XII would have done better than blabbering to midwives in actually picking non-Modernists for the bishoprics around the world. His garbage appointments, including heresiarchs like Cushing, Modernist heretics like Roncalli (with an active file against them) ... and the various errors he made led directly to Vatican II. I've gone on for half an hour about how terrible a pope he was.

And you also show that you're stupid ... since no Feeneyite denies the quote in bold above. You simply read into it a corollary that isn't there and that is actually heretical. It's obvious that no one can be saved if they know the Church to be the true Church and refuse to enter it. But you claim that only those who know the truth about the Church and refuse to enter it are ineligible for salvation? In other words, a handful of Satanists? Everyone else is fair game?

You're just a shameless heretic and schismatic, illegitimately refusing to accept Vatican II due to "your own lights", having determined with "your own lights" that the V2 popes are not popes (despite the fact that somehow Pius XII failed to detect the manifest heresy of Roncalli and Montini) ... and you hold the exactly same ecclesiology and other errors over which you in your heretical depravity and hubris illegitimately reject Vatican II.

anonymouscatholicus · « **Reply #149 on:** October 18, 2024, 06:14:20 PM »

Cathecism of Saint Pius X has been teaching BOD for 40 years until fr Feeney.
Tridentine catechism has contained BOD doctrine for almost 400 years until fr Feeney.

How lucky are we that we finally got the "correctors" at last. Better late than never. Because you see -what so many valid popes, canonists, doctors, saints and theologians have collectively missed through and allowed through their omission for this most pernicious "error" to creep up in the bloodline of the Church COMPLETELY UNCHALLENGED, was finally corrected by a priest in the 1950s.

Why has there not been a single soul to write about this elephant in the room for so long? Imagine Vatican II finished and then we have the first trads around the year 2000 finally realising that something is rotten and not one person raising an issue with these errors before. How absurd would that be?

Author Topic: Feeney the nut job (Read 32619 times)

Stubborn

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dymphnaw

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Ladislaus

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NishantXavier

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songbird

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Gray2023

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NishantXavier

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M1913

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Stubborn

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Comrade

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OABrownson1876

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AnthonyPadua

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AnthonyPadua

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Ladislaus

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anonymouscatholicus

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