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Author Topic: Feeney the nut job  (Read 32494 times)

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Offline Gray2023

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Re: Feeney the nut job
« Reply #90 on: October 17, 2024, 03:10:04 PM »
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  • It's not that God loves not men, but that men do not love God.

    But how could so many of the poor Sioux warriors, Mayan child-sacrificers and Aboriginese cannibals go to hell?

    The only acceptable answer: Who put you in judgment over Almighty God?!

    Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus.
    You went to an extreme and then accused me of judging God.  How helpful?  Correct me if I misunderstood you.

    I do not judge God.  Man deserves what man gets, but all the innocent people caught in the crossfire, my heart breaks for them. 
    1 Corinthians: Chapter 13 "4 Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up; 5 Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil;"

    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: Feeney the nut job
    « Reply #91 on: October 17, 2024, 03:30:46 PM »
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  • At least in America, EENS has been attacked since 1776.  Protestants vs Catholics has been the battle for centuries.  EENS forced Catholics to preach the gospel and forced protestants to face their heresy straight in the face.  Politically, the "problem" of EENS is that it divided the nation (unnecessarily, the liberals say) and so many politicians and american bishops took a softer stance.  Orestes Brownson (a convert) wrote his whole life in defending EENS and complained of the wishy-washy clerics of his day.

    By the time the post-WW1/Depression days began, american politicians started pushing 'separation of church and state' in order to silence those catholic clerics who wanted to preach EENS.  Post war was the time to "come together" not be divided.  This is the atmosphere where Fr Feeney started preaching...the pre-V2 movement of "universal salvation" and "religious liberty" started with the watering-down of EENS.
    This wishy washy behavior of Catholics started way before 1776, it came over on the Arc and the Dove with religious liberty, around 1633.

    I often wonder why Fatima spoke of the errors of Russia, it seems like the troubles of religious liberty are more detrimental to the Faith, which basically opened the doors for priests and bishops to be laxed on EENS.

    Pax I am not trying to contradict you, but when I was study genealogy years ago I came across a book that had such a declaration.  The people on these boats were looking for a place to freely practice their religion.  My thought was sadness to see that my ancestors were already carrying the idea of go along to get along.
    1 Corinthians: Chapter 13 "4 Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up; 5 Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil;"


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Feeney the nut job
    « Reply #92 on: October 17, 2024, 03:55:25 PM »
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  • Quote
    but all the innocent people caught in the crossfire
    The only innocent Indians were the children.  All of the adult indians who didn't convert were involved in witchcraft, constant war, killiing, cannibalism, etc.  They weren't innocent; they violated the natural law (which is written on every man's heart by God) six ways to Sunday.

    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: Feeney the nut job
    « Reply #93 on: October 17, 2024, 04:30:27 PM »
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  • The only innocent Indians were the children.  All of the adult indians who didn't convert were involved in witchcraft, constant war, killiing, cannibalism, etc.  They weren't innocent; they violated the natural law (which is written on every man's heart by God) six ways to Sunday.
    How do you know there weren't others who fought against the atrocity, I can't believe that there was absolutely no adult, who didn't want to offend the natural law and ended up being offered to the sun God as well?
    1 Corinthians: Chapter 13 "4 Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up; 5 Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil;"

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Feeney the nut job
    « Reply #94 on: October 17, 2024, 04:36:41 PM »
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  • Generally speaking, Gray.  Only God knows if there were exceptions, so it's a waste of time to discuss it.  


    Offline songbird

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    Re: Feeney the nut job
    « Reply #95 on: October 17, 2024, 05:03:00 PM »
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  • Thank God for Father Feeney!!  He makes us think to this day!!  He was a defender of the Faith/dogma of EENS.  He knew his enemies and the enemies were many such as Cushing and even Rome for that matter.

    Christ said, if they hate me, they will hate you.  And Father Feeney went up to bat!!  Thank You Fr. Feeney!!

    Offline ihsv

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    Re: Feeney the nut job
    « Reply #96 on: October 17, 2024, 06:08:09 PM »
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  • Generally speaking, Gray.  Only God knows if there were exceptions, so it's a waste of time to discuss it. 
    Gray is taking this thread in sixteen different directions, none of which have anything to do with the topic. It is in everyone's best interest to ignore her and stick to the topic at hand.

    To get back to the topic at hand, the detractors of Fr. Feeney generally focus on his disobedience in ignoring the Roman summons. If the liberal county sheriff is at your door and wants to come into your home, do you let him in knowing what kind of person he is? Knowing that he will plant evidence and then put you through a kangaroo court and take your children? Or do you stand on the law and say "Come back with a warrant?" You will get your teeth kicked in, maybe your children will be taken anyway, but you make the rogue authority abide by the law. Because in the long run, this is what will exonerate you. And that's Fr. Feeney's case, in a nutshell. They never charged him with heresy because they couldn't. 
    Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum. - Nicene Creed

    Offline ihsv

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    Re: Feeney the nut job
    « Reply #97 on: October 17, 2024, 06:14:31 PM »
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  • Another interesting side note. Look up JFK's funeral Mass on YouTube. It was said by Cushing and was a sloppy mess. Then ask yourself if that's how a devout cleric says Mass in front of the world.
    And then if you have read AA-1025 think about how he describes how the anti-apostles were taught to say the Mass and slur the words as to give the appearance of validity but render it invalid.
    Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum. - Nicene Creed


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Feeney the nut job
    « Reply #98 on: October 17, 2024, 06:50:51 PM »
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  • And then if you have read AA-1025 think about how he describes how the anti-apostles were taught to say the Mass and slur the words as to give the appearance of validity but render it invalid.

    Yes, I've seen Cushing's sloppy Masses, but never put it together with the AA-1025.  Interesting thought.  His sister was married to a Jew.

    From Cushing's Wiki article:
    Quote
    Cushing was honored by B’nai B’rith as "Man of the Year" in 1956 for "a lifetime of distinguished service to the cause of human brotherhood under God and in further recognition of great leadership in the fields of education and community relations." He was a close correspondent with Robert E. Segal, longtime executive director of the Jєωιѕн Community Relations Council of Metropolitan Boston, who played a key role in Jєωιѕн-Catholic relations in Boston. As well as this, Cushing maintained close contacts with Abram L. Sachar of Brandeis University. From the very start of Cushing's tenure as Archbishop of Boston, there was a major change in the relationship between official Bostonian Catholicism and Judaism, where there had previously been much mutual suspicion, Cushing sought closer relations. The author James Carroll has attributed Cushing's outlook to the (non-Catholic) marriage between his sister Dolly Cushing and a local Jєωιѕн haberdasherer, Dick Pearlstein. At the time this was very uncommon.

    It might behoove someone to investigate Cushing's lineage (through his parents).

    Offline NishantXavier

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    Re: Feeney the nut job
    « Reply #99 on: October 18, 2024, 01:02:07 AM »
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  • If I were to become entirely convinced baptism of desire is actually heretical, I would have no other choice but to declare Pope Pius XII to be a heretic who ipso facto lost his office (or never had it) without need for any further declaration. Even Br. Dimond says that if Pope Pius XII had personally signed the Holy Office letter, he would be a heretic. Therefore, the only two possibilities are (1) Pope Pius XII is a heretic (2) baptism of desire is not heretical. Tertium non datur (there is no third option). Pius XII's holy office clearly said in the letter quoted earlier that denying bod is "very harmful both to those within the Church and those without". Also, Pius XII taught the same doctrine as the holy office letter in other places. For e.g. he said: "In an adult an act of love may suffice to obtain him sanctifying grace and so supply for the lack of Baptism". So do any other sedevacantists want to go that far, that Pius XII was also a heretic just like John XXIII and Paul VI were?

    Again, Fr. Feeney should have gone to Rome. Archbishop Lefebvre went when Rome summoned him. Even Our Lord Jesus Christ went before Pontius Pilate to testify to His Gospel. If Fr. Feeney was genuinely convinced, as some of his followers here believe, that Pope Pius XII would have supported him, and that it wasn't the Pope, but only Archbishop Cushing, and also at least Cardinals Selvagianni and Ottaviani (who signed the letter) who were teaching BOD, he would have gone to Rome and clarified the matter. In fact, this would have been an exceptional opportunity to present the Gospel and the Catholic faith before the Roman authorities. This is the reason Fr. Pagliariani also gave recently for discussion with the Roman authorities. Even if Rome were not 100% convinced by the Society's theological arguments, it was an excellent opportunity to present the Gospel (i.e. the orthodox Catholic faith in its fullness) to the Roman authorities.

    So I think Fr. Feeney missed a golden opportunity. Next, here is Fr. Fenton explain that Suprema Haec Sacra is indeed authoritative Magisterium, ordinary Magisterium about which Pope Pius XII says, "these things are taught with the ordinary teaching authority, about which it is true to say, "he who hears you, hears Me". Thus, again, if Pius XII was a Pope, it is Christ Himself whom we hear to teach us bod. Thus if bod is heretical, it clearly follows that Pius XII was every bit a heretic as Paul VI and John XXIII and therefore either never pope or ipso facto losing office for bod.

    Fr. Fenton: "One of the few good results that followed from the unfortunate debates centering around Father Feeney's group at St. Benedict's Center was the issuance of the Holy Office instruction Suprema haec sacra, dated Aug. 8, 1949, and published officially with its authorized English translation in the Oct., 1952, issue of The American Ecclesiastical Review. This docuмent made it very clear to the men of our own time that the Church had by no means abandoned or modified the age old dogma to the effect that there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church. As a matter of fact this Holy Office letter put the magisterium itself on record as asserting what had been, since the latter part of the sixteenth century, the teaching of the best theologians of the Church: the doctrine that the Catholic Church itself is definitely and actually necessary for the attainment of eternal salvation with the necessity of precept and with the necessity of means." https://tradicat.blogspot.com/2013/10/questions-about-membership-in-church.html The Church of course still teaches EENS. She just rejects the Feeneyite interpretation of it. Either that, or if the Feeneyite interpretation is correct, the Church defected at this time by teaching heresy. That's if Pius XII is a legitimate Pope.

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Feeney the nut job
    « Reply #100 on: October 18, 2024, 01:08:44 AM »
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  • If I were to become entirely convinced baptism of desire is actually heretical, I would have no other choice but to declare Pope Pius XII to be a heretic who ipso facto lost his office (or never had it) without need for any further declaration. Even Br. Dimond says that if Pope Pius XII had personally signed the Holy Office letter, he would be a heretic. Therefore, the only two possibilities are (1) Pope Pius XII is a heretic (2) baptism of desire is not heretical. Tertium non datur (there is no third option). Pius XII's holy office clearly said in the letter quoted earlier that denying bod is "very harmful both to those within the Church and those without". Also, Pius XII taught the same doctrine as the holy office letter in other places. For e.g. he said: "In an adult an act of love may suffice to obtain him sanctifying grace and so supply for the lack of Baptism". So do any other sedevacantists want to go that far, that Pius XII was also a heretic just like John XXIII and Paul VI were?

    Again, Fr. Feeney should have gone to Rome. Archbishop Lefebvre went when Rome summoned him. Even Our Lord Jesus Christ went before Pontius Pilate to testify to His Gospel. If Fr. Feeney was genuinely convinced, as some of his followers here believe, that Pope Pius XII would have supported him, and that it wasn't the Pope, but only Archbishop Cushing, and also at least Cardinals Selvagianni and Ottaviani (who signed the letter) who were teaching BOD, he would have gone to Rome and clarified the matter. In fact, this would have been an exceptional opportunity to present the Gospel and the Catholic faith before the Roman authorities. This is the reason Fr. Pagliariani also gave recently for discussion with the Roman authorities. Even if Rome were not 100% convinced by the Society's theological arguments, it was an excellent opportunity to present the Gospel (i.e. the orthodox Catholic faith in its fullness) to the Roman authorities.

    So I think Fr. Feeney missed a golden opportunity. Next, here is Fr. Fenton explain that Suprema Haec Sacra is indeed authoritative Magisterium, ordinary Magisterium about which Pope Pius XII says, "these things are taught with the ordinary teaching authority, about which it is true to say, "he who hears you, hears Me". Thus, again, if Pius XII was a Pope, it is Christ Himself whom we hear to teach us bod. Thus if bod is heretical, it clearly follows that Pius XII was every bit a heretic as Paul VI and John XXIII and therefore either never pope or ipso facto losing office for bod.

    Fr. Fenton: "One of the few good results that followed from the unfortunate debates centering around Father Feeney's group at St. Benedict's Center was the issuance of the Holy Office instruction Suprema haec sacra, dated Aug. 8, 1949, and published officially with its authorized English translation in the Oct., 1952, issue of The American Ecclesiastical Review. This docuмent made it very clear to the men of our own time that the Church had by no means abandoned or modified the age old dogma to the effect that there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church. As a matter of fact this Holy Office letter put themagisterium itself on record as asserting what had been, since the latter part of the sixteenth century, the teaching of the best theologians of the Church: the doctrine that the Catholic Church itself is definitely and actually necessary for the attainment of eternal salvation with the necessity of precept and with the necessity of means." https://tradicat.blogspot.com/2013/10/questions-about-membership-in-church.html The Church of course still teaches EENS. She just rejects the Feeneyite interpretation of it. Either that, or if the Feeneyite interpretation is correct, the Church defected at this time by teaching heresy. That's if Pius XII is a legitimate Pope.
    What are you talking about? Pius 12th never signed the letter against Fr Feeney. The Church also has not directed condemned BoD but 'allowed'/tolerated it (unfortunately) that's why saints like Alphonsus are not heretics despite believing a non-heretical form of BoD (there are different versions). To say his holy office condemned it but yet he never signed it is contradictory. It was already brought up that this docuмent was unreliable because it was held for 2 years after it was made and published after the death of the person who supposedly wrote it, meaning it could have been altered. Also it wasn't published in by the Church but in a news paper... 

    You are making a lot of assumptions in your post based on a false understanding of what the Church has or has not authoritatively taught. She has never taught BoD.




    Offline NishantXavier

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    Re: Feeney the nut job
    « Reply #101 on: October 18, 2024, 02:13:39 AM »
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  • What are you talking about? Pius 12th never signed the letter against Fr Feeney.

    Read the post carefully. (1) Pope Pius XII firstly taught BOD elsewhere, showing he certainly wasn't opposed to it. "In an adult an act of love may suffice to obtain him sanctifying grace and so supply for the lack of Baptism". (PIUS XII, “Allocution to Italian Midwives”, Acta Apostolicae Sedis, 43 (1951), 841.) Note that this IS in the AAS. Do you accept it?

    Quote
    The Church also has not directed condemned BoD but 'allowed'/tolerated it (unfortunately)

    Not condemned BoD? She has CONDEMNED the denial of BoD when SBC tried it. In other words, She has not allowed or tolerated the denial of BOD but clearly declared this to be "very harmful both to those within and without (outside) the Church". In other words, the Church is saying your revisionist 20th century modernist Feeneyite version of EENS is a condemned and heterodox doctrine not accepted or approved by the Church. For e.g. to affirm every Protestant or Orthodox is a formal heretic or schismatic is a false doctrine which rejects the Church dogma on invincible ignorance. Likewise to affirm every non-Christian is guilty of sin for being a non-Christian is a condemned doctrine.

    Quote
    that's why saints like Alphonsus are not heretics

    Saints like Alphonsus are not heretics? Whoever believe Alphonsus is a heretic, like Ibranyi does, is a schismatic.

    Offline NishantXavier

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    Re: Feeney the nut job
    « Reply #102 on: October 18, 2024, 02:16:06 AM »
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  • Quote
    Quote despite believing a non-heretical form of BoD (there are different versions).

    St. Alphonsus believed in the same form of bod as Pius XII. There is only one version. BOD means love of God or perfect contrition can secure for a non-Christian the remission of sins when Baptism is not available. St. Alphonsus taught this, and Pope Pius XII confirmed it. Was Pope Pius XII a heretic for what he taught and had inserted into the AAS? Your opinion leads to that.

    Quote
    Quote To say his holy office condemned it but yet he never signed it is contradictory. It was already brought up that this docuмent was unreliable because it was held for 2 years after it was made and published after the death of the person who supposedly wrote it, meaning it could have been altered. Also it wasn't published in by the Church but in a news paper...

    It's not required that he personally sign every docuмent. His Cardinals condemned it and informed him of it. If he disagreed, he certainly would have said so. As it is, he taught BOD in 1951 and had it inserted in the AAS as proven above. Are you willing to acknowledge that if Pius XII approved BOD (in any way, not only in the way you prefer, as if the Pope were bound to the forms you choose) and if BOD is in fact heretical as you believe, then Pius XII is a heretic?

    That would be the logical conclusion of your error. But it is schismatic to believe such a thing, just as it would be schismatic to believe St. Alphonsus is a heretic. Realize that Ibryani believes such a thing. What has it availed him? Nothing. Meanwhile, numerous Catholic missionaries have never accepted your revisionist interpretation of the dogma contrary to that sense in which the Church Herself has understood Her dogma and have evangelized millions. St. Padre Pio is just one example of a saintly Catholic priest who rejected the Dimonds opinion yet led many to Christ and Baptism. Baptism of Desire is only operative when Baptism is unavailable, never when it has been despised, as St. Augustine clearly teaches St. Augustine also wrote: "Baptism is administered invisibly to one whom not contempt of religion but death excludes." (Denzinger 388) Leave God's mysteries to Himself and focus on trying to convert your non-Catholic and non-Christian friends and bring them to Baptism or to confession respectively.



    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Feeney the nut job
    « Reply #103 on: October 18, 2024, 02:28:43 AM »
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  • Read the post carefully. (1) Pope Pius XII firstly taught BOD elsewhere, showing he certainly wasn't opposed to it. "In an adult an act of love may suffice to obtain him sanctifying grace and so supply for the lack of Baptism". (PIUS XII, “Allocution to Italian Midwives”, Acta Apostolicae Sedis, 43 (1951), 841.) Note that this IS in the AAS. Do you accept it?

    Not condemned BoD? She has CONDEMNED the denial of BoD when SBC tried it. In other words, She has not allowed or tolerated the denial of BOD but clearly declared this to be "very harmful both to those within and without (outside) the Church". In other words, the Church is saying your revisionist 20th century modernist Feeneyite version of EENS is a condemned and heterodox doctrine not accepted or approved by the Church. For e.g. to affirm every Protestant or Orthodox is a formal heretic or schismatic is a false doctrine which rejects the Church dogma on invincible ignorance. Likewise to affirm every non-Christian is guilty of sin for being a non-Christian is a condemned doctrine.

    Saints like Alphonsus are not heretics? Whoever believe Alphonsus is a heretic, like Ibranyi does, is a schismatic.
    The address to midwives also taught that NFP was ok but it's not. It wasn't binding, Pope Pius 12th was wrong here on BoD. The Church didn't condemn SBC, that docuмent was already dealt with earlier in this thread. Ironic, you claim that those who properly hold the dogma EENS are revisionist modernists but it's the opposite, those who make exceptions to the teaching of the Church are following the revision of modernists. The Church has never taught salvation in the state of invincible ignorance, the Holy Office has made this very clear. I mention St Alphonsus because you are conflating the belief in BoD as heresy with your example of Pope Pius 12th

    Quote
    If I were to become entirely convinced baptism of desire is actually heretical, I would have no other choice but to declare Pope Pius XII to be a heretic

    This was never the claim, BoD has many forms, most are heretical but the version which the Saints mentioned were not those heretical forms.
    St. Alphonsus believed in the same form of bod as Pius XII. There is only one version. BOD means love of God or perfect contrition can secure for a non-Christian the remission of sins when Baptism is not available. St. Alphonsus taught this, and Pope Pius XII confirmed it. Was Pope Pius XII a heretic for what he taught and had inserted into the AAS? Your opinion leads to that.

    It's not required that he personally sign every docuмent. His Cardinals condemned it and informed him of it. If he disagreed, he certainly would have said so. As it is, he taught BOD in 1951 and had it inserted in the AAS as proven above. Are you willing to acknowledge that if Pius XII approved BOD (in any way, not only in the way you prefer, as if the Pope were bound to the forms you choose) and if BOD is in fact heretical as you believe, then Pius XII is a heretic?

    That would be the logical conclusion of your error. But it is schismatic to believe such a thing, just as it would be schismatic to believe St. Alphonsus is a heretic. Realize that Ibryani believes such a thing. What has it availed him? Nothing. Meanwhile, numerous Catholic missionaries have never accepted your revisionist interpretation of the dogma contrary to that sense in which the Church Herself has understood Her dogma and have evangelized millions. St. Padre Pio is just one example of a saintly Catholic priest who rejected the Dimonds opinion yet led many to Christ and Baptism. Baptism of Desire is only operative when Baptism is unavailable, never when it has been despised, as St. Augustine clearly teaches St. Augustine also wrote: "Baptism is administered invisibly to one whom not contempt of religion but death excludes." (Denzinger 388) Leave God's mysteries to Himself and focus on trying to convert your non-Catholic and non-Christian friends and bring them to Baptism or to confession respectively.



    St Alphonsus also mentions a baptism of tears, which like BoD, he was wrong about. No there isn't only one version of BoD this is false. The version the Saints held still DID NOT DENY THE NECESSITY OF BAPTISM AS PER THE COUNCIL OF TRENT. The heretical forms of BoD skip over baptism. You are conflating a lot of different things while also making assumptions while also not having the proper nuance to BoD.

    Baptism is never unavailable as God is not constrained by impossibility. The elect will ALWAYS receive baptism. God can constrain Himself like when He promised not to flood the earth again or that unless a man be born of water and spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. Saint Augustine also said in his LATER WORK against Julian, that "Let it not be said that God will allow any of His elect to die before receiving the sacrament of the mediator". BoD is not a sacrament, it doesn't have matter and form, and as per Trent, True Justice can only begin with sacraments.


    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Feeney the nut job
    « Reply #104 on: October 18, 2024, 02:33:53 AM »
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  • The address to midwives also taught that NFP was ok but it's not. It wasn't binding, Pope Pius 12th was wrong here on BoD. The Church didn't condemn SBC, that docuмent was already dealt with earlier in this thread. Ironic, you claim that those who properly hold the dogma EENS are revisionist modernists but it's the opposite, those who make exceptions to the teaching of the Church are following the revision of modernists. The Church has never taught salvation in the state of invincible ignorance, the Holy Office has made this very clear. I mention St Alphonsus because you are conflating the belief in BoD as heresy with your example of Pope Pius 12th

    This was never the claim, BoD has many forms, most are heretical but the version which the Saints mentioned were not those heretical forms.St Alphonsus also mentions a baptism of tears, which like BoD, he was wrong about. No there isn't only one version of BoD this is false. The version the Saints held still DID NOT DENY THE NECESSITY OF BAPTISM AS PER THE COUNCIL OF TRENT. The heretical forms of BoD skip over baptism. You are conflating a lot of different things while also making assumptions while also not having the proper nuance to BoD.

    Baptism is never unavailable as God is not constrained by impossibility. The elect will ALWAYS receive baptism. God can constrain Himself like when He promised not to flood the earth again or that unless a man be born of water and spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. Saint Augustine also said in his LATER WORK against Julian, that "Let it not be said that God will allow any of His elect to die before receiving the sacrament of the mediator". BoD is not a sacrament, it doesn't have matter and form, and as per Trent, True Justice can only begin with sacraments.
    2Corinthians 4:3-4
    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.



    Romans 1:18-20

    Romans 1:20 is also used by Vatican 1, that God can be known by natural reason.
    Those in 'invincible ignorance', are, as St Paul says, "inexcusable".




    In a flame of fire, giving vengeance to them who know not God, and who obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ 9 Who shall suffer eternal punishment in destruction, from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his power:

      [2 Thessalonians 1:8-9]



    Baptism of desire, baptism of blood, salvation outside the Church by the Church and salvation in the state of invincible ignorance are coping mechanism that signify a want of faith.