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Author Topic: Feeney the nut job  (Read 32497 times)

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Offline NishantXavier

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Re: Feeney the nut job
« Reply #105 on: October 18, 2024, 02:54:41 AM »
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  • So St. Alphonsus had a "want of faith"? That's extremely temerarious of you to speak in that way about a Doctor of the Church. You might want to examine your own "want of faith". You need to humble yourself and learn with a teachable spirit from the Doctors/Teachers of the Church. How long have you been a Catholic?

    Quote
    Quote The address to midwives also taught that NFP was ok but it's not.
    So you don't care if a Pope teaches something in the AAS. You'll just reject it anyway. That's a sin on your part.

    I am leaving it beyond this point, because until you are willing to submit to the Magisterium, you will be in error.

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Feeney the nut job
    « Reply #106 on: October 18, 2024, 04:29:18 AM »
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  • So St. Alphonsus had a "want of faith"? That's extremely temerarious of you to speak in that way about a Doctor of the Church. You might want to examine your own "want of faith". You need to humble yourself and learn with a teachable spirit from the Doctors/Teachers of the Church. How long have you been a Catholic?
    So you don't care if a Pope teaches something in the AAS. You'll just reject it anyway. That's a sin on your part.

    I am leaving it beyond this point, because until you are willing to submit to the Magisterium, you will be in error.

    Mark, you have to understand that these “neo Feeneyites” believe they know more than any pope, saint, theologian, or canonist. There is no humbling for them, their pride is going to be their ruin. 
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Feeney the nut job
    « Reply #107 on: October 18, 2024, 05:00:48 AM »
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  • If I were to become entirely convinced baptism of desire is actually heretical ...

    That's a strawman against most "Feeneyites".  We don't believe BoD is heretical, merely that it's at nothing more than speculative theology (which is provable and which I've demonstrated), and we argue that it's wrong/mistaken speculative theology.

    There are some, a small minority, who hold that BoD is heretical, and I believe even most of those would categorize it as objective heresy that has not yet been defined as such (in the category of the Immaculate Conception, for instance, before its definition ... where it was always objectively heretical, since it was always dogma, but one did not become a heretic for denying it before its definition by the Church).

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Feeney the nut job
    « Reply #108 on: October 18, 2024, 05:03:58 AM »
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  • St. Alphonsus believed in the same form of bod as Pius XII. There is only one version. 

    False, demonstrating your complete ignorance of the matter.  There are nearly as many variations on BoD as there are people who hold it.  I could take the time to list them, as various posters here have represented each one of them over time ... but you can also search on it if you're interested.  That definition of BoD that you gave is to be found nowhere in any Magisterial docuмent, but is merely one definition of it (out of many).

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Feeney the nut job
    « Reply #109 on: October 18, 2024, 05:07:57 AM »
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  • Not condemned BoD? She has CONDEMNED the denial of BoD when SBC tried it.

    100% false.  That garbage heretical Suprema Haec, as has been pointed out, but you ignore in your bad will and refusal to look at the truth objectively, does not even constitute "merely authentic" Magisterium, since it does not appear in AAS, which by Canon Law is what establishes it as merely authentic Magisterium.  We have every reason to be believe that the reason it failed to appears in AAS is because it's been either tampered with or completely forged, as Cushing sat on it for a couple years before publishing it ... until the Cardinal who allegedly signed it had died, so he could neither confirm nor deny its authenticity.

    If you accept SH, then you condemn yourself from your own mouth as a schismatic heretic, since the entire Vatican II ecclesiology, which you reject as heretical, is based on the principles in SH.

    Now, even HAD this docuмent been legitimate, it doesn't come close to being irreformable or infallible.


    Offline Maria Auxiliadora

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    Re: Feeney the nut job
    « Reply #110 on: October 18, 2024, 05:09:59 AM »
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  • If he was a good Catholic, then why was he excommunicated.

    From wikipedia:

    "Excommunication
    On 8 August 1949, Cardinal Francesco Marchetti Selvaggiani of the Holy Office sent a protocol letter to Archbishop Richard Cushing on the meaning of the dogma extra Ecclesiam nulla salus ("outside the Church there is no salvation"). This protocol had been approved by Pope Pius XII on 28 July 1949. The docuмent states: "[T]his dogma [extra Ecclesiam nulla salus] must be understood in that sense in which the Church herself understands it. For, it was not to private judgments that Our Saviour gave for explanation those things that are contained in the deposit of faith, but to the teaching authority of the Church".[13][14][15]
    After Feeney refused twice to oblige to the Holy See's summons to Rome to explain himself, he was excommunicated on 13 February 1953 by the Holy See for persistent disobedience to legitimate church authority due to his refusal to comply. According to Cardinal John Wright, Pope Pius XII personally translated the edict into English.[9]"


    Why would we still try to listen to him today?  Maybe he was right in addressing some issues, but to be overly dogmatic can also be a sign of great pride.

    Is it really worth my time to figure out the ins and outs of Father Feeney? or is this just another distraction put before us to not work out our own salvation with fear and trembling?

    And Gunter, why would you purposefully put a topic title on the board that would rile up those who like Father Feeney?  Couldn't you have written something like interesting information on Father Feeney? 


    Gray,

    St. Athanasius was "excommunicated" for disobedience, "Why would we still try to listen to him today?"
    ABL was "excommunicated" for disobedience, "Why would we still try to listen to him today?"
    AB Vigano was "excommunicated" for disobedience, "Why would we still try to listen to him today?"

    Funny, Fr. Feeney will continue to be slandered for defending the 3 Dogmas on EENS precisely because they are the ones constantly being attacked but I never met any of them that even know what dogma is and never read the three dogmas. So, for your benefit, here they are:

    Quote
    “There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)



    Quote
    “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)

    Quote
    “The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jєωs and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)

    https://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius10/p10moath.htm

    In the link above, The Oath Against Modernism, the word dogma appears 6 times. Why?

    And Pascendi Dominici Gregis? 26 times! Why?

    https://www.vatican.va/content/pius-x/en/encyclicals/docuмents/hf_p-x_enc_19070908_pascendi-dominici-gregis.html


    The love of God be your motivation, the will of God your guiding principle, the glory of God your goal.
    (St. Clement Mary Hofbauer)

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Feeney the nut job
    « Reply #111 on: October 18, 2024, 05:20:43 AM »
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  • Mark, you have to understand that these “neo Feeneyites” believe they know more than any pope, saint, theologian, or canonist. There is no humbling for them, their pride is going to be their ruin.

    Yeah, yeah, the same old bullshit and lies form you ... as expected.  Most of the Church Fathers (all saints) rejected it, and it did not even become close to a widespread opinion until after St. Thomas.  After the Patristic era, during which the majority, and I argue unanimity, of the Fathers rejected it, you don't hear about it until the pre-scholastics picked it back up (after the revival of St. Augustine), with Hugh of St. Victor (pro) vs. Abelard (con) debating it.  At that point, Peter Lombard went to St. Bernard asking his opinion (to referee the debate), and St. Bernard tentatively sided with (his mistaken belief regarding the opinion of) St. Augustine, saying he'd rather be wrong with Augustine than right on his own.  Unbeknownst to them, St. Augustine had actually forcefully retracted his (admittedly speculative and very tentative) opinion and had issued some of the strongest anti-BoD statements in existence.  In any case, Lombard then put the opinion in his "Sentences", which became THE manual for the scholastics, including St. Thomas, and then opinion spread after that due to St. Thomas' authority.

    At the same time, for nearly 700 "any pope, saint, theologian, or canonist" universally taught and adhered to the opinion of St. Augustine regarding the fate of infants who died unbaptized.  But Abelard (same as the one who was anti-BoD) first questioned it, and proposed what became the notion of Limbo, contrary to prior universal opinion for 7 centuries.  Again, St. Thomas adopted it and it spread, to the point that the Church condemned its rejection as "Pelagianism".  St. Robert Bellarmine in fact believed that Limbo was condemned in the Magisterium and held to the Augustinian opinion, but the Church disagreed with him ... and the Church always trumps the opinions of Doctors.  So I guess Abelard and St. Thomas also "[knew] more than any pope, saint, theologian, or canonist" before them.

    As for Father Feeney's position, even if you accept your BoDer reading of Trent, for instance, Trent says nothing about salvation but about justification.  Nor did Father Feeney invent this distinction.  Not only is the essence of it present in Trent itself (where it distinguishes between justification and salvation, with the latter consisting of the former plus a distinct grace of final perseverance), but post-Tridentine theologians, including the highly respected Melchior Cano (as detailed by Cardinal Avery Dulles, a companion of Father Feeney in his early years, and I looked up and found the Latin text myself), distinguished between justification and salvation, holding, for instance, that infidels could be justified but not saved.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Feeney the nut job
    « Reply #112 on: October 18, 2024, 05:21:51 AM »
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  • Gray,

    St. Athanasius was "excommunicated" for disobedience, "Why would we still try to listen to him today?"
    ABL was "excommunicated" for disobedience, "Why would we still try to listen to him today?"
    AB Vigano was "excommunicated" for disobedience, "Why would we still try to listen to him today?"

    Funny, Fr. Feeney will continue to be slandered for defending the 3 Dogmas on EENS precisely because they are the ones constantly being attacked but I never met any of them that even know what dogma is and never read the three dogmas. So, for your benefit, here they are:
    Hi Maria! Good post and I'm very happy to see you here again, and tell Drew I said hello!!
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Feeney the nut job
    « Reply #113 on: October 18, 2024, 05:33:43 AM »
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  • St. Athanasius was "excommunicated" for disobedience, "Why would we still try to listen to him today?"
    ABL was "excommunicated" for disobedience, "Why would we still try to listen to him today?"
    AB Vigano was "excommunicated" for disobedience, "Why would we still try to listen to him today?"

    Funny, Fr. Feeney will continue to be slandered for defending the 3 Dogmas on EENS precisely because they are the ones constantly being attacked but I never met any of them that even know what dogma is and never read the three dogmas. So, for your benefit, here they are:

    Even if someone considered the excommunication of Father Feeney just (it was not), it says nothing about his doctrine.  So Archbishop ("No salvation outside the Church? Nonsense") Cushing was left untouched despite his pertinacious manifest denial of defined dogma, as were Father Feeney's Jesuit superiors (with equally heretical statements on public record), but it was Father Feeney who was excommunicated ... simply for invoking his rights in Canon Law to be informed of the charges against him before excommunication (they did that even for +Vigano ... though +Lefebvre was ipso facto)).

    In any case, nobody has ever demonstrated where Father Feeney ever denied a single word of Trent, even among those who believe in the standard interpretation of the famous passage in Trent.

    Trent was speaking about "justification", and Father Feeney believed in "justification by votum".  So where's his heresy?  Even if you disagree with his distinction, the Magisterium has not ruled on the distinction, and, as I pointed out, other respected and non-condemned post-Tridentine theologians, notably Melchior Cano (and another whose name escapes me) distinguished also between justification and salvation.

    So where's Father's "heresy"?  Eh?

    These guys always point to Suprema Haec, which doesn't even come close to meeting he notes of infallibility and of being irreformable (these same people ignore other Holy Office rulings they don't like), but there's serious question about its authenticity.  Canon Law stipulates that various docuмents must appears in AAS in order to be knowable as "authentic Magisterium", and it's PRECISELY to prevent shenanigans that this provision was laid out, since the Popes reviewed everything that went in there.  As pointed out, Cushing sat on the docuмent until after the Cardinal who allegedly wrote and signed it had died.  I wonder why, since it would have benefitted his case from the very beginning, and there's no other record of it other than what we see in the "Irish Ecclesiastical Review" (even the reference to it in Denzinger by Rahner ... though it doesn't belong there by any stretch, having nothing resembling "dogma" about it, to be a "Source of Dogma", except that Karn "Anonymous Christian" Rahner liked it and wanted to puff up its authority, even referring to it by the first two Latin words, unprecedented for Holy Office rulings, to give the impression of its having quasi-Magisterial authority).

    Finally, the dogmatic SVs are the most dogmatically anti-Feeneyite, and they're the ones who puff the authority of this letter ... oblivious to the fact that it condemns them as heretics and schismatics, since SH contains the very same ecclesiology that these same SVs denounce as "heretical" in Vatican II and justifying their rejectio of it.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Feeney the nut job
    « Reply #114 on: October 18, 2024, 05:38:57 AM »
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  • SVs also typically excoriate Father Feeney for disobedience, hypocritically ignoring the fact that by their own criteria, where manifest heretics are ipso facto deposed from office, Archbishop Cushing had already vacated his see, and Fr. Feeney's Jesuit superiors had vacated their offices also, due to pertinacious manifest denial of the dogma that there's no salvation outside the Church ... which they explicitly rejected.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Feeney the nut job
    « Reply #115 on: October 18, 2024, 05:41:12 AM »
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  • If I were to become entirely convinced baptism of desire is actually heretical, I would have no other choice but to declare Pope Pius XII to be a heretic who ipso facto lost his office (or never had it) without need for any further declaration.
    Oh brother! Do you even know what a heresy is? FYI, very simply, if it's contrary to the faith, it's heresy. 

    Do you know there are somethings that we laypeople (and priests) may not do? One of those things is to declare popes to be heretics who ipso facto lost their office (or never had it) without need for any further declaration.

    Please always remember these things ^^ as they are among the things that all Catholics should know.

    Trent says that justification cannot be effected without the sacrament of baptism - or the desire for the sacrament of baptism. This means simply, no sacrament=no justification and desiring the sacrament = no justification. It's really not so complicated. It might help you to remember, as Trent says, "as it is written, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Feeney the nut job
    « Reply #116 on: October 18, 2024, 05:52:29 AM »
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  • Oh brother! Do you even know what a heresy is? FYI, very simply, if it's contrary to the faith, it's heresy.

    OK, well, if it's DIRECTLY contrary to faith, it's heresy.  There are other notes of error lower than heresy when the contradiction is less direct, e.g. "proximate to heresy", "error", and even things like "offensive to pious ears".

    Also, there's objective heresy vs. defined heresy.  So, for instance, while it was always heretical (objectively) to deny the Immaculate Conception (since it's always been objective dogma), those who denied it were not formal heretics until the Church defined it as dogma.  Same was true of Papal Infallibility.  Many denied it before its definition.  In fact, some officially sanctioned Catechisms denied papal infallibility and had to be revised after Vatican I (so much for the "Catechism" argument from the anti-BoDers)>

    So there are indeed distinctions to be made.

    Issue there is that the majority of Feeneyites do not (nor did Father Feeney himself) hold that BoD is heretical ... so it's a strawman against most of us.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Feeney the nut job
    « Reply #117 on: October 18, 2024, 06:18:56 AM »
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  • OK, well, if it's DIRECTLY contrary to faith, it's heresy.  There are other notes of error lower than heresy when the contradiction is less direct, e.g. "proximate to heresy", "error", and even things like "offensive to pious ears".

    Also, there's objective heresy vs. defined heresy.  So, for instance, while it was always heretical (objectively) to deny the Immaculate Conception (since it's always been objective dogma), those who denied it were not formal heretics until the Church defined it as dogma.  Same was true of Papal Infallibility.  Many denied it before its definition.  In fact, some officially sanctioned Catechisms denied papal infallibility and had to be revised after Vatican I (so much for the "Catechism" argument from the anti-BoDers)>

    So there are indeed distinctions to be made.

    Issue there is that the majority of Feeneyites do not (nor did Father Feeney himself) hold that BoD is heretical ... so it's a strawman against most of us.
    I don't believe someone who privately hopes or thinks salvation is possible via a BOD is a heretic, I do believe they are wrong, but so what - but this guy declares that he's kicking PPXII out of office over it - if he was ever in it to begin with.

    I believe the constant broadcasting and preaching of a BOD as if it were a doctrine of the Church is heretical.

    It still amazes me how screwed up people, including a lot of trad clergy still are about Fr. Feeney even after all these decades, even in this age of instant information.

    The meme I linked to earlier might just be what solves the mystery for me, it's St. Augustine of Hippo who said: "People hate the truth for the sake of whatever it is that they love more than the truth."

    They must not be able to accept the fact that so few, only a select very few are saved, doing away with the first requirement for salvation is a comfort to them.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Feeney the nut job
    « Reply #118 on: October 18, 2024, 07:30:42 AM »
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  • So St. Alphonsus had a "want of faith"? That's extremely temerarious of you to speak in that way about a Doctor of the Church. You might want to examine your own "want of faith". You need to humble yourself and learn with a teachable spirit from the Doctors/Teachers of the Church. How long have you been a Catholic?
    So you don't care if a Pope teaches something in the AAS. You'll just reject it anyway. That's a sin on your part.

    I am leaving it beyond this point, because until you are willing to submit to the Magisterium, you will be in error.
    You sound like a sophist. Did Saint Alphonsus deny EENS by saying salvation outside the church by the church? Or claiming someone can be saved in the state of ignorance? Nor did he hold a heretical form of BoD.

    There is a serious problem when Catholics make exceptions to dogma because fallible source said so, contradicting the teaching of the Church as well as scripture.

    Even worse despite modern technology which with we can easily compare dogmatic statements made by the a church people still refuse to accept that Florence refutes BoB among other things.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Feeney the nut job
    « Reply #119 on: October 18, 2024, 07:42:36 AM »
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  • I don't believe someone who privately hopes or thinks salvation is possible via a BOD is a heretic, I do believe they are wrong, but so what - but this guy declares that he's kicking PPXII out of office over it - if he was ever in it to begin with.

    I believe the constant broadcasting and preaching of a BOD as if it were a doctrine of the Church is heretical.

    It still amazes me how screwed up people, including a lot of trad clergy still are about Fr. Feeney even after all these decades, even in this age of instant information.

    The meme I linked to earlier might just be what solves the mystery for me, it's St. Augustine of Hippo who said: "People hate the truth for the sake of whatever it is that they love more than the truth."

    They must not be able to accept the fact that so few, only a select very few are saved, doing away with the first requirement for salvation is a comfort to them.

    I'm not sure who's "kicking PPXII out of office over it".

    In any case, for me it has much more to do with the ecclesiological implications of an "extended" BoD, extending beyond catechumens or those at least with the explicit intention of joining the Church, i.e. to various types of non-Catholics.  You'll realize that it's what their promotion of BoD is REALLY all about ... and that they hardly care about the isolated case of a Catechumen on his way to his schedule Baptism when he gets into a car crash and dies ... when they try to start applying "BoD" to (validly-baptized) schismatics and Protestants.  For most, BoD is simply code word for a way to safe non-Catholics.  If someone wants to believe in a BoD for those who are somehow visibly part of the Catholic Church, I'm not going to argue with them too much, as it's my opinion vs. theirs.  Problem is that 95% of BoDers extend BoD to various non-Catholics.  But the ecclesiological ramifications are such that then V2 ecclesiology would be perfectly sound and Catholic.  Whether we can justifiably reject V2 depends entirely upon whether or not we we believe that non-Catholics can be saved.

    MAJOR:  No salvation outside the Church (dogma)
    MINOR:  Non-Catholics can be saved [opinion of nearly all BoDers]
    CONCLUSION:  Non-Catholics can be in the Church.

    Therefore, the Church consists of Catholics (at its visible, one might say, subsistent core) AND non-Catholics.  This is V2 ecclesiology in a nutshell, and all the errors of V2 derive from this thinking.  If I were to accept the Minor above, I would have to accept Vatican II as Catholics.  THAT is the real problem ... where most Trads are walking around in a state of total contradiction.