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Author Topic: Elvis is BACK!  (Read 3569 times)

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Offline cassini

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Re: Elvis is BACK!
« Reply #45 on: October 16, 2017, 02:58:31 PM »
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    • It was taught to me many times in my Catholic life that we do not KNOW if a certain person is in hell or not. By way of the teachings of our faith we do know how and why people go to hell for all eternity, but ultimately God judges every person individually. 

    Douay-Rheims Bible
    Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you shall be forgiven.

    Didn't He tell us not to judge, lest we should be judged for doing so? Only God knows everything and whereas probably most we knew who deserved hell are probably there anyway, I would not go public in judging someone like Elvis, a sinner like us all in his own way. But just as we HOPE God will forgive us, we can hope he forgave men like Elvis who had a troubled life that I am glad I did not have.  
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    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    • "Lord, have mercy."
    Re: Elvis is BACK!
    « Reply #46 on: October 16, 2017, 03:16:54 PM »
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    • There are numerous distinction fails developing rapidly here.

    One involves certitude, and its degrees.

    Another involves the practical order.

    The Church does not judge internal things, at least not directly.

    Going by what is known, we can know at least to moral certainty whether we can or cannot, should or should not, for example,  consider someone lost.

    You can see an example of this, for example, when S. Robert Bellarmine speaks of someone, in this instance a pope, being rightly condemned as a heretic when it was later determined that this pope was not actually a heretic.

    You can see this kind of thinking somewhat paralleled in criminal convictions, at least in principle, where the case and evidence presented rightly leads to a conviction of someone who is innocent.

    It would be wrong to not convict in that case.

    There are other distinctions, but there is a reason why there are such things as theologians, philosophers, and books.

    If you think about it, how else could things work? We can see the alternatives doing much damage to people's ability to see the visible Church for one.
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    "Lord, have mercy".

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    • "Lord, have mercy."
    Re: Elvis is BACK!
    « Reply #47 on: October 16, 2017, 03:24:31 PM »
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    • Quote from: cassini on October 16, 2017, 02:58:31 PM

    Douay-Rheims Bible
    Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you shall be forgiven.

    Didn't He tell us not to judge, lest we should be judged for doing so? Only God knows everything and whereas probably most we knew who deserved hell are probably there anyway, I would not go public in judging someone like Elvis, a sinner like us all in his own way. But just as we HOPE God will forgive us, we can hope he forgave men like Elvis who had a troubled life that I am glad I did not have.  
    Saying what God has said isn't saying it yourself.

    There is no point, for example, of even telling us things like "Extra Ecclesiam, nulla salus est." if we can't know who is and isn't inside the Church and, conversely, outside the Church.

    "Meaningless formula", at least as far as we're concerned.
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    "Lord, have mercy".

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    • "Lord, have mercy."
    Re: Elvis is BACK!
    « Reply #48 on: October 16, 2017, 03:54:34 PM »
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    • Quote from: GJC on October 16, 2017, 03:38:49 PM
    We are taught not to judge RASHLY.  So you do not understand.

    A man and woman are walking down the street, to assume they are fornicators is to judge rashly.

    A man and woman that are participating in lustful acts towards one and other in public, could be assumed as fornicators. This is not judging rashly.

    Elvis is in hell because he didn't love Jesus, how do I know he didn't love Jesus?

    If you love me, keep my commandments. John 14:15

    He who saith that he knoweth him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4

    The man condemned himself, not me.  He wasn't even Catholic.

    That is all I will comment on this.
    Here's another question, just for thought; if the cited scripture is to be taken as this person suggests, then how do we;

    1. Examine ourselves and, subsequently
     1. Accuse ourselves and then,
      1. Submit ourselves to a priest for judgement?

    What do we go to confession for then? What is the point? What is the big deal?

    Related example two:

    Is there anyone that we can think of who is the supreme judge over the court of final appeal here on earth?

    Just what does or can this person judge anyway?

    Saying where someone is heading isn't saying that they've arrived either.

    Related example three:

    Why is it that none get butt-hurt when someone is impromptu canonized, and by laymen no less? Isn't that judging too?

    Again, just for consideration.

    So much equivocation, conflation and lack of distinction, in the "trad" world and otherwise.

    "Don't judge?"

    "What prompted you to give such a command? So what if I do?"
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    "Lord, have mercy".

    Offline 1st Mansion Tenant

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    Re: Elvis is BACK!
    « Reply #49 on: October 16, 2017, 07:37:36 PM »
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    • Elvis was raised in Protestant Evangelism. He was an avid reader and probably examined Catholicism, and I believe may have toyed with the idea of converting, given the stories about Fr Balduc.   While his Christian roots ran deep, he was a complicated guy and ran astray into New Age and Eastern studies. The world loved him because he was handsome, talented and generous. But the truth is: he was also lonely, confused and self-centered, a womanizing adulterer and pill-popper. I hope by some miracle he might be in Purgatory, but I don't see how. If he is, well then, may God show such mercy for all of us.
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    Online Nadir

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    Re: Elvis is BACK!
    « Reply #50 on: October 17, 2017, 05:38:53 AM »
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    • I said:

    Quote
    I don't understand who how you could wish him to be alive in this mess of a world With people going crazy.
     .
    Thank you, Cassini, for a note of common sense and to ClemensMaria for the Hail Mary by Elvis, who sings that Mary is holding back her Son's hand.
     Makes me think that at worst Elvis is suffering in purgatory, so pray for him.
    An Even Seven asked:

    Quote
    Does this mean that you think "at best" Elvis went directly to heaven at his death? Or do you think "at best" he's still alive?

    And I replied:
    Quote
    No and No.

    AES:
    Quote
    Nadir, I am not trying to nit-pick but you said "Makes me think that at worst Elvis is suffering in purgatory, so pray for him." This implies that best case scenario, Elvis went straight to heaven. Either way he lived and died, at least externally, as a non-Catholic and we are to assume he went to hell right? Just an explanation please.


    As I said in my first post: “I don't understand how you (Tradplorable) could wish him to be alive in this mess of a world with people going crazy” it’s obvious I didn’t think "at best" he's still alive.
    That’s the second NO.
    .
    Re the first NO, I did not think "at best" Elvis went directly to heaven at his death.  I expressed myself poorly. It should have been “Elvis, singing that Mary is holding back her Son's hand, makes me think that at worst Elvis is suffering in purgatory, so pray for him.
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    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.
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