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Author Topic: EENS (article from previous post), NDE  (Read 615 times)

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Offline The Penny Catechism

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EENS (article from previous post), NDE
« on: March 28, 2014, 10:04:26 AM »
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  • From previous post, EENS article (here), this article is 44 pages and for those who wanted to find the discrepancy previously mentioned without having to read throught it all. Partial summary.

    I. EENS strict
    A. Under 'Section II: Proofs from the Necessity of True Faith"
    1. ..."Now this is eternal life: that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ Whom Thou hast sent." [John 17:3]...'Hence the believing in Jesus Christ is one condition positively required by God in order for salvation; so that without this belief there can be no salvation.'
    2. 'But it is not enough to believe in the Person of Jesus Christ; it is also required to believe His doctrine, His words, those Divine truths which He has revealed...'  
    9.'... This is the Catholic Faith, which, except a man believe Faithfully, he cannot be saved.'
    B. Under 'Q 4'  first paragraph
    1. '...now, the whole tenor of His revealed Will declares that He requires our being members of His Church...'
    C. Under 'Q 8' '...Mahometans, Jєωs, and heathens...'
    1. '...they cannot be saved.'
    2. '...all those we here speak are in the state of Original Sin, alien from God, and children of wrath. Being unBaptized and it is an article of Christian Faith, that unless Original Sin be washed away by the grace of Baptism, there is no salvation.'    

    II. EENS not strict
    A. Under 'Q. 27: But suppose a person live in a false religion, and die without being reunited to the Communion of the Church of Christ, can it be said of such a one that he is certainly lost?'
    1. '...we can never say of such a one with certainty that he is lost..'
    2. '...if God, has given him in his last moments light and grace to see and embrace the True Faith...he will be saved.' (no mention of Baptism nor positive knowledge of the Incarnation/ Trinity, unless presumed this knowledge was given miraculously or the person previously knew this information).
    A. Under 'Q. 28: But, in the case proposed, if a person, in his last moments shall receive the light of Faith from God, and embrace it with all his heart, would this suffice to make him a member of the True Church in the sight of God?'
    1. 'Most and undoubtedly; the case is the same in this as in that of Baptism...'  (next sentence adds a heathen who was given positive knowledge).

    III. Members of the Church (Mystici Corporis Christi: #22) = "...those who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body (schism, heresy, apostasy - #23).
    1. Catechism (Spirago-Clarke pg. 247) over EENS and Membrers of the Church: 'Thus the Catholic Church has members both visible and invisible. The visible members are those who have been received into the Church by Baptism. The following are not members: unbaptized (heathens, Jєωs, Muslims), formal heretics, and schismatics.. The invisible members are those who without any fault of their own are outside the Church leading God-fearing lives (which ironically could be the same unbaptized, Jєωs, formal heretics, --- as 'members' albeit 'invisible').
    2. Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma (Ott pg. 312) over the 'Necessity of Membership of the Church... for salvation' (de fide).... = 'No one can achieve salvation (outside Catholic Church'...' equally certain is to be held that those who suffer from invincible ignorance of the true religion, are not for this reason guilty in the eyes of the Lord... can achieve salvation.' (all in one paragraph, noting that the qualifier isn't a deathbed conversion for desiring conversion is not being invincibly ignorant).
    3. Mystici Corporis Christi #39 "Invisibly and Extraordinarily" - ambiguous stating '...bends and subjects their will to His good pleasure, even when rebellious.' However, doesn't state explicit salvation for 'invisibility.'

    IV. Overall
    1. The Bishop Hay article qualifies (in all cases) that the person must convert before death, as opposed to the Spirago-Clarke/ Ott that give implicit potential for salvation for those who do not profess Christ before dying.
    2. Both in Mystici Corporis Christi and the Hay article the words ordinary and extraordinary are mentioned however not relating to the same meaning in describing EENS.
    3. In the Hay article, strict EENS is in the 'ordinary possibility of salvation' which possibly could reconciliate Pope Eugene IV's Bull Cantate Domino which God has revealed and required us to adhered to. Bishop Hay then mentions the extraordinary means of salvation which could be God's gratuitous means of salvation outside of normal circuмstance, and perhaps not requiring explicit belief (perhaps like giving sway to phenomena possibly occurring at a distant planet...or without positive doubt).  
    4. Obviously the above is speculation with my adherence in Faith to what the Church intends.

    V. Sidenote (NDE)
    1. Novus Ordo priest who dies, goes to Hell and comes back to tell his story to Mother Angelica. See how imprecise NDE relations can be when one is ill/ injured (in particular brain injury) when trying to relate back the experience.

    2. When clicked on 1#, below it mentions Fr. Steven Scheier's second interview and here it is
     


    Offline The Penny Catechism

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    EENS (article from previous post), NDE
    « Reply #1 on: March 28, 2014, 10:28:47 AM »
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  • Quote from: The Penny Catechism

    II. EENS not strict
    A. Under 'Q. 27: But suppose a person live in a false religion, and die without being reunited to the Communion of the Church of Christ, can it be said of such a one that he is certainly lost?'
    1. '...we can never say of such a one with certainty that he is lost..'
    2. '...if God, has given him in his last moments light and grace to see and embrace the True Faith...he will be saved.' (no mention of Baptism nor positive knowledge of the Incarnation/ Trinity, unless presumed this knowledge was given miraculously or the person previously knew this information).
    A. Under 'Q. 28: But, in the case proposed, if a person, in his last moments shall receive the light of Faith from God, and embrace it with all his heart, would this suffice to make him a member of the True Church in the sight of God?'
    1. 'Most and undoubtedly; the case is the same in this as in that of Baptism...'  (next sentence adds a heathen who was given positive knowledge).



    - forgot to put in OP -

    1. Speculative Theology - since being Baptized is required with profession of the Incarnation/ Holy Trinity, etc. then do those who are allegedly saved in the above go to Paradise without the Beatific Vision.
    2. In other words, is a death bed conversion by an unbaptized Heathen who is presumed to be saved ----  in 'Paradise' without the Beatific Vision to allow for this distinction?
    3. pure speculation to reconciliate (if it can even be done) the above.


    Offline Cantarella

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    EENS (article from previous post), NDE
    « Reply #2 on: March 28, 2014, 12:07:16 PM »
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  • Quote from: The Penny Catechism
    Quote from: The Penny Catechism

    II. EENS not strict
    A. Under 'Q. 27: But suppose a person live in a false religion, and die without being reunited to the Communion of the Church of Christ, can it be said of such a one that he is certainly lost?'
    1. '...we can never say of such a one with certainty that he is lost..'
    2. '...if God, has given him in his last moments light and grace to see and embrace the True Faith...he will be saved.' (no mention of Baptism nor positive knowledge of the Incarnation/ Trinity, unless presumed this knowledge was given miraculously or the person previously knew this information).
    A. Under 'Q. 28: But, in the case proposed, if a person, in his last moments shall receive the light of Faith from God, and embrace it with all his heart, would this suffice to make him a member of the True Church in the sight of God?'
    1. 'Most and undoubtedly; the case is the same in this as in that of Baptism...'  (next sentence adds a heathen who was given positive knowledge).



    - forgot to put in OP -

    1. Speculative Theology - since being Baptized is required with profession of the Incarnation/ Holy Trinity, etc. then do those who are allegedly saved in the above go to Paradise without the Beatific Vision.
    2. In other words, is a death bed conversion by an unbaptized Heathen who is presumed to be saved ----  in 'Paradise' without the Beatific Vision to allow for this distinction?
    3. pure speculation to reconciliate (if it can even be done) the above.


    If one were to take the levels of Hell into consideration, I would rephrase the speculation like this: since being Baptized is required with profession of the Incarnation/ Holy Trinity, etc. then do those who are allegedly saved in the above go to Hell (possibly with no torment and definitely not for punishment due to the sin of heresy or infidelity) without the Beatific Vision.  

    I think that paradise is ALWAYS associated with the Beatific Vision and Hell with the lack thereof. If you take into consideration that there are actually levels of torment on Hell, being Limbo for example a place with zero torment for unbaptized infants, in which they only miss the Beatific Vision, then one can speculate that there could be a similar place for the righteous invisible ignorant, which due to Original Sin cannot enter Heaven but may not have any actual sin he is guilty of and therefore will not be punished on account of those sins. This ignorant may not enjoy the sight of the Beatific Vision but maybe he will not be in any torment for actual sins in Hell.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Cantarella

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    EENS (article from previous post), NDE
    « Reply #3 on: March 28, 2014, 12:24:06 PM »
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  • Infallible teaching in Florence (1439):

    "It is likewise defined that the souls of those who depart in actual mortal sin or in original sin only, descend immediately into Hell but undergo punishment of different kinds"

    And in Lyons (1274):
    "The souls of those who die in mortal sin or with original sin only, however, immediately descend to Hell, yet to be punished with different punishments"

    Infallible dogmas are truths fallen from Heaven which cannot be contradicted, interpreted, altered, colored, etc. by any fallible theologian. Dogmas are to be believed as they are, inquiring further is condemned.  
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline The Penny Catechism

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    EENS (article from previous post), NDE
    « Reply #4 on: March 28, 2014, 02:29:30 PM »
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  • Quote from: Cantarella
    Quote from: The Penny Catechism
    Quote from: The Penny Catechism

    II. EENS not strict
    A. Under 'Q. 27: But suppose a person live in a false religion, and die without being reunited to the Communion of the Church of Christ, can it be said of such a one that he is certainly lost?'
    1. '...we can never say of such a one with certainty that he is lost..'
    2. '...if God, has given him in his last moments light and grace to see and embrace the True Faith...he will be saved.' (no mention of Baptism nor positive knowledge of the Incarnation/ Trinity, unless presumed this knowledge was given miraculously or the person previously knew this information).
    A. Under 'Q. 28: But, in the case proposed, if a person, in his last moments shall receive the light of Faith from God, and embrace it with all his heart, would this suffice to make him a member of the True Church in the sight of God?'
    1. 'Most and undoubtedly; the case is the same in this as in that of Baptism...'  (next sentence adds a heathen who was given positive knowledge).



    - forgot to put in OP -

    1. Speculative Theology - since being Baptized is required with profession of the Incarnation/ Holy Trinity, etc. then do those who are allegedly saved in the above go to Paradise without the Beatific Vision.
    2. In other words, is a death bed conversion by an unbaptized Heathen who is presumed to be saved ----  in 'Paradise' without the Beatific Vision to allow for this distinction?
    3. pure speculation to reconciliate (if it can even be done) the above.


    If one were to take the levels of Hell into consideration, I would rephrase the speculation like this: since being Baptized is required with profession of the Incarnation/ Holy Trinity, etc. then do those who are allegedly saved in the above go to Hell (possibly with no torment and definitely not for punishment due to the sin of heresy or infidelity) without the Beatific Vision.  

    I think that paradise is ALWAYS associated with the Beatific Vision and Hell with the lack thereof. If you take into consideration that there are actually levels of torment on Hell, being Limbo for example a place with zero torment for unbaptized infants, in which they only miss the Beatific Vision, then one can speculate that there could be a similar place for the righteous invisible ignorant, which due to Original Sin cannot enter Heaven but may not have any actual sin he is guilty of and therefore will not be punished on account of those sins. This ignorant may not enjoy the sight of the Beatific Vision but maybe he will not be in any torment for actual sins in Hell.



    - Great take Cantarella


    - I tip my hat off to you  ---  at first read, your point is better than mine