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Author Topic: Do you have the REAL Douay-Rheims?  (Read 5877 times)

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Offline Tradplorable

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Offline MyrnaM

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Re: Do you have the REAL Douay-Rheims?
« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2017, 07:53:54 PM »
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  • Quote
    Preferring what is older is not "modern," it is TRADITIONAL.

    Tradplor.....

    Thanks for the compliment.   ;)
    Please pray for my soul.
    R.I.P. 8/17/22

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    Offline Tradplorable

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    Re: Do you have the REAL Douay-Rheims?
    « Reply #17 on: October 08, 2017, 07:57:35 PM »
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  • Offline St Ignatius

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    Re: Do you have the REAL Douay-Rheims?
    « Reply #18 on: October 08, 2017, 08:05:10 PM »
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  • Tradplor.....

    Thanks for the compliment.   ;)
    He's so busy twisting himself into a pretzel, you think he'll even understand your comment? 

    Offline Tradplorable

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    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Do you have the REAL Douay-Rheims?
    « Reply #20 on: October 08, 2017, 08:22:44 PM »
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  • Tradplorable,

    You might have just sold me on flat-earth. Goal-post shifting like this simply isn't possible on a curve!
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Tradplorable

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    Re: Do you have the REAL Douay-Rheims?
    « Reply #21 on: October 08, 2017, 08:45:29 PM »
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  • Although the Bibles in use in the twentieth century by the Catholics of England and Ireland are popularly styled the Douay Version, they are most improperly so called; they are founded, with more or less alteration, on a series of revisions undertaken by Bishop Challoner in 1749-52. His object was to meet the practical want felt by the Catholicsof his day of a Bible moderate in size and price, in readable English, and with notes more suitable to the time. He brought out three editions of the New Testament, in 1749, 1750, and 1752 respectively, and one of the Old Testament in 1750. The changes introduced by him were so considerable that, according to Cardinal Newman, they "almost amounted to a new translation". So also, Cardinal Wiseman wrote, "To call it any longer the Douay or Rheimish Version is an abuse of terms. It has been altered and modified until scarcely any sense remains as it was originally published". In nearly every case Challoner's changes took the form of approximating to the Authorized Version, though his three editions of the New Testament differ from one another in numerous passages. The best known version published in England in modern times was perhaps Haydock's, which was first issued at Manchesterin fortnightly parts in 1811-12. The Irish editions are mostly known by the names of the bishops who gave the imprimatur: as Dr. Carpenter's New Testament (1783); Dr. Troy's Bible (1791); Dr. Murray's (1825); and Dr. Denvir's(1836) — the last two of which have often been reprinted, and were circulated largely in England and Ireland. Around the turn of the century, the issue of the sixpenny New Testament by Burns and Oates of London, by its large circulation, made the text adopted therein — Challoner's of 1749 — the standard one, especially as the same was adopted in Dr. Murray's and Dr. Denvir's Bibles. In America an independent revision of the Douay Version by Archbishop Kenrick (1849-59) was much used.


    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05140a.htm

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Do you have the REAL Douay-Rheims?
    « Reply #22 on: October 08, 2017, 10:34:10 PM »
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  • So, here's what's going on:

    Tradplorable starts a thread where he all but outright states that the Challoner scripture translations are faulty, and to no one's surprise, they're faulty especially because they fail to confirm that the earth is flat, which of course is something the Church has taught always and everywhere.
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    Several have objected to Tradplorable on his unspoken premise: that the Church can universally approve of some publication which contains harmful error.
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    So then Tradplorable backpedals, without ever abandoning his initial position (which was hardly a preference for the 1610 Douai, but an outright disdain for the 'errors' of Challoner's version).  He backpedals and attempts to provide support for his position by citing old Catholic periodicals.
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    What is being discussed in those is not whether or not the Challoner version is harmful, but the degree to which the translation coincides with the Douai version, with some scholars claiming that it does not deserve the term 'Douay-Rheims' because of the variance.
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    Now, I'm not a Greek or Latin scholar (and I can't make much sense of either), so I'm certainly in no position one way or another to say that the translation is equitable to whatever degree.  But it doesn't matter.  Translations are, of their nature, different from what they're translating.  Different languages are different.  Different translations, even in the same vernacular, are different (just compare a St. Joseph's and St. Andrew Missal to see how clear this is: even given the same source material, different translators will translate things differently).
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    Truth be told, there's actually a really fascinating discussion that could be had about all of this which pins around the philosophy of language, and how language, even Latin, always points outside itself to propositions of truth which would be true even if there were no languages at all, and are completely independent of language expressions at all.  Moreover, the Church's infallibility in translating is a marvelous topic, given this, and also given the certain prudential decisions which go into certain translations at certain points of time, but all nevertheless guided by the Church's infallibility.  There's even further interest when it comes to scripture especially because of the different senses which can be made of different passages (legitimate senses, that is) and the question of lingual accuracy versus the retention of some truth or another from one vernacular to another (for instance, Matt 1:25 'until').
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    In short, this is a very, very rich topic about which many legitimate discussions could be had!
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    But none of these are of interest to Tradplorable.  He wants to show how the Church has been in error for a few hundred years, something any halfway decent Catholic would reject, despite his claims of "just wanting the truth."  But he seems to fail to realize that the sources he's quoting are engaged in a scholarly controversy over whether or not certain translations, given their differences, should be called Douay-Rheims.  The controversy isn't over whether or not they've allowed some significant error to creep in!  That's just plain question-begging on Tradplorable's part, and clear confirmation bias.  Ditto the C.E. article, which doesn't even remotely suggest what he's suggesting. 
    .
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).


    Offline poche

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    Re: Do you have the REAL Douay-Rheims?
    « Reply #23 on: October 09, 2017, 02:02:51 AM »
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  • When I have a question or a doubt about something in the Bible I refer to the Latin, Greek, Aramaic or Hebrew. .

    Offline hismajesty

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    Re: Do you have the REAL Douay-Rheims?
    « Reply #24 on: October 09, 2017, 05:10:23 AM »
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  • I have to side with tradplorable on this one. The quotes given are pretty clear.
    "....I am at a loss what to say respecting those who, when they have once erred, consistently persevere in their folly, and defend one vain thing by another" - Church Father Lactentius on the globe earth

    Offline Tradplorable

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    Re: Do you have the REAL Douay-Rheims?
    « Reply #25 on: October 09, 2017, 09:35:40 AM »
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  • The fact that there was great scandal and discussion in the 19th century about whether or not the Challoner revisions changed too much of the original Douay-Rheims, after its 200 years suppression, is likely to be news to most Catholics.

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    I would be the vast majority of Trads are quite unaware there was any scandal surrounding their 1899 Bibles.
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    The changes that were made were vast and numerous. They touch on many subjects.
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    Did you know, as Cardinal Wiseman wrote, that the way we pray the Ave Maria now in our present day is different than the way it was prayed, and that this change came as a result of the Challoner Bible? Read the quotes, it's very interesting. Cardinal Wiseman was very distressed by such a small thing: changing "Our Lord is with Thee" to "the Lord is with Thee."
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    I suspect that there is probably an intentional change of the word "compasse" to "globe" in the Isaiah passage. The flat earth movement was very popular at that time. The enemies of the truth would like to squash it, no doubt.
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    Offline poche

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    Re: Do you have the REAL Douay-Rheims?
    « Reply #26 on: October 09, 2017, 10:13:51 AM »
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  • The fact that there was great scandal and discussion in the 19th century about whether or not the Challoner revisions changed too much of the original Douay-Rheims, after its 200 years suppression, is likely to be news to most Catholics.

    .
    .
    I would be the vast majority of Trads are quite unaware there was any scandal surrounding their 1899 Bibles.
    .
    .
    .
    The changes that were made were vast and numerous. They touch on many subjects.
    .
    .
    Did you know, as Cardinal Wiseman wrote, that the way we pray the Ave Maria now in our present day is different than the way it was prayed, and that this change came as a result of the Challoner Bible? Read the quotes, it's very interesting. Cardinal Wiseman was very distressed by such a small thing: changing "Our Lord is with Thee" to "the Lord is with Thee."
    .
    .
    I suspect that there is probably an intentional change of the word "compasse" to "globe" in the Isaiah passage. The flat earth movement was very popular at that time. The enemies of the truth would like to squash it, no doubt.
    .
    .
    We can always pray the hail Mary by sayng; 
    Ave Maria;
    Gratia plena
    Dominus tecuм
    Benedictu tu in mulieribus
    Et benedictus fructus ventris tui. Jesus
    Sancta Maria 
    Mater Dei
    Ora pro nobis peccatoribus nunc et in hora mortis nostris. Amen. 

    Offline happenby

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    Re: Do you have the REAL Douay-Rheims?
    « Reply #27 on: October 09, 2017, 10:25:38 AM »
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  • Although the Bibles in use in the twentieth century by the Catholics of England and Ireland are popularly styled the Douay Version, they are most improperly so called; they are founded, with more or less alteration, on a series of revisions undertaken by Bishop Challoner in 1749-52. His object was to meet the practical want felt by the Catholicsof his day of a Bible moderate in size and price, in readable English, and with notes more suitable to the time. He brought out three editions of the New Testament, in 1749, 1750, and 1752 respectively, and one of the Old Testament in 1750. The changes introduced by him were so considerable that, according to Cardinal Newman, they "almost amounted to a new translation". So also, Cardinal Wiseman wrote, "To call it any longer the Douay or Rheimish Version is an abuse of terms. It has been altered and modified until scarcely any sense remains as it was originally published". In nearly every case Challoner's changes took the form of approximating to the Authorized Version, though his three editions of the New Testament differ from one another in numerous passages. The best known version published in England in modern times was perhaps Haydock's, which was first issued at Manchesterin fortnightly parts in 1811-12. The Irish editions are mostly known by the names of the bishops who gave the imprimatur: as Dr. Carpenter's New Testament (1783); Dr. Troy's Bible (1791); Dr. Murray's (1825); and Dr. Denvir's(1836) — the last two of which have often been reprinted, and were circulated largely in England and Ireland. Around the turn of the century, the issue of the sixpenny New Testament by Burns and Oates of London, by its large circulation, made the text adopted therein — Challoner's of 1749 — the standard one, especially as the same was adopted in Dr. Murray's and Dr. Denvir's Bibles. In America an independent revision of the Douay Version by Archbishop Kenrick (1849-59) was much used.


    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05140a.htm
    Bishop speaks from the 1800's and gets four thumbs down long before his words could have been seriously considered.  And people wonder why they are overrun by enemies.  They refuse to learn, listen or consider anything except their own understanding.  As Fr Hesse once said with great clarity, "they do this because they do not understand the sufferings of Christ."  

    Offline St Ignatius

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    Re: Do you have the REAL Douay-Rheims?
    « Reply #28 on: October 09, 2017, 10:35:12 AM »
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  • Ohh whoopy... the "goddess" of flat-tardom has made a return...

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Do you have the REAL Douay-Rheims?
    « Reply #29 on: October 09, 2017, 10:35:39 AM »
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  • We can always pray the hail Mary by sayng;
    Ave Maria;
    Gratia plena
    Dominus tecuм
    Benedictu tu in mulieribus
    Et benedictus fructus ventris tui. Jesus
    Sancta Maria
    Mater Dei
    Ora pro nobis peccatoribus nunc et in hora mortis nostris. Amen.
    We can also say that we can say things in another language without actually saying what could be said in another language. 

    That aside, you deserve golf-claps for a nice application of linear thinking. Kudos to you today, Che.  :applause:
    "Lord, have mercy".