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Author Topic: Do gαy-marriage States Still Have the Right to Rule?  (Read 710 times)

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Offline St John Evangelist

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Do gαy-marriage States Still Have the Right to Rule?
« on: August 13, 2016, 05:05:07 AM »
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  • Do they have any legitimate authority, any right to rule? They lost all divine authority when they threw off the Church, but now that they enforce this crime against nature and humanity, have they not now lost  all natural and human authority? By enforcing this have they not shown themselves to have abandoned all divine and natural law, and therefore revealed themselves to be tyrants that consider themselves above the law? Therefore, what authority do they still have?

    If Muslims tried to overthrow the state you live under, would you support the Muslims or the state? I don't think the Muslims have rebelled against the law that much, so I suspect they have a greater right to rule.


    Offline Exilenomore

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    Do gαy-marriage States Still Have the Right to Rule?
    « Reply #1 on: August 13, 2016, 08:58:47 AM »
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  • Civil jurisdiction does not somehow vanish due to criminality being legislated. Evil laws do not bind, as they do not exist ontologically. They can use as much paper and ink as they want; an evil law is not a law. But the magistrates of the State nevertheless retain their legitimate power, and they must be obeyed in all things lawful.

    Coups d'état are never permitted, as they are assaults on legitimate authority to the end of usurping it.

    I am not sure what you mean by "divine authority". There is the spiritual power and the civil power, both descending from God, which are distinct powers, but not necessarily separated. The Pope of Rome, for example, is both the visible head of the Church and the temporal monarch of the Vatican.

    The world is in great need of restoring the principle of sacral monarchy, by which kings were annointed religiously by the clergy. It does not bestow spiritual, that is, ecclesiastical authority upon them, but the Church sacralises the temporal authority by impressing this religious character upon it, giving a sublime expression of the true harmony that must exist between the two powers, extirpating the erroneous beliefs regarding the relationship between the Church and the State in the collective mind of the populations.

    Regarding your question about supporting the State or a potential Mahometan regime overthrowing it: I would defend the State, for it is written that we must honour our father and mother. This Commandment does not restrict itself to obedience due to our natural parents, but extends itself to all our legitimate superiours, ecclesiastical and civil.

    That said, do not delude yourself about the Mahometans. They are satanical perverts drunk with the blood of saints and prophets.


    Offline BeatusRusticus

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    Do gαy-marriage States Still Have the Right to Rule?
    « Reply #2 on: August 13, 2016, 12:30:13 PM »
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  • Any government which exercises de facto authority is entitled to the respect due to that authority. They thus have the duty (and right) as the ones in power, to do the things that must be done, for the running of the country. They can collect taxes, maintain the roads, regulate trade, defend the borders, etc, all for the common good. If a government is overthrown by violence and a new government is imposed, which has the effect of replacing a good (or less evil) government with one that is more anti-Catholic, it is entirely moral to contemplate counter-revolution, overthrowing the revolutionary government by force. However, all such considerations are subject to the Catholic doctrine on Just War. The proposed counter-revolution must be winnable, and must not result in more suffering for the people than would result from enduring the bad government. All of this is a bit vague, but in practical terms there are some examples we can use. For example, the Spanish cινιℓ ωαr was a "winnable" counter-revolution by the conservative, Catholic military, against a new government which was very leftist, strongly sympathetic to, and eventually openly allied with, the Soviet Union. On the other hand, in the US, even though our government is technically "revolutionary," there is no popular and military support for a real counter-revolution, and so such a war would not be a real war, but an ιnѕυrrєcтισn, which everyone would justly condemn as "domestic terrorism." Thus, for a Catholic, it would be immoral.

    Offline St John Evangelist

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    Do gαy-marriage States Still Have the Right to Rule?
    « Reply #3 on: September 24, 2016, 03:39:55 PM »
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  • Quote from: Exilenomore
    Civil jurisdiction does not somehow vanish due to criminality being legislated. Evil laws do not bind, as they do not exist ontologically. They can use as much paper and ink as they want; an evil law is not a law. But the magistrates of the State nevertheless retain their legitimate power, and they must be obeyed in all things lawful.


    I agree that one cannot just ignore all civil law because the State has promulgated evil law, and that they are the de facto rulers still, but is it true that they are the legitimate authority after promulgating a civil law which is against both divine and natural law? Can they not still retain their de facto jurisdiction while losing their right to rule in the sense of no longer being able to rightfully suppress an ιnѕυrrєcтισn that would repeal their evil law?

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    Coups d'état are never permitted, as they are assaults on legitimate authority to the end of usurping it.


    This assumes that a civil authority always remains legitimate regardless of its acts. For example, if the State instituted child sacrifice would a coup still be illegitimate? Would it not be the case that by promoting such an evil institution, the State would thereby have lost all legitimacy in its claim to govern men? Is it not the case that gαy marriage, or abortion, are such evils that by promoting them the State can be said to have lost its right to govern men?


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    Regarding your question about supporting the State or a potential Mahometan regime overthrowing it: I would defend the State, for it is written that we must honour our father and mother. This Commandment does not restrict itself to obedience due to our natural parents, but extends itself to all our legitimate superiours, ecclesiastical and civil.


    Say you live in a country ruled by an anti-Catholic power, that actively persecutes Catholics, forbids their religion, and puts them to death wherever they are discovered; say that the Pope supports a Catholic revolutionary in the country who wishes to overthrow the anti-Catholic regime and institute a pro-Catholic one - would you still defend the anti-Catholic regime?

    Quote from: BeatusRusticus

    Any government which exercises de facto authority is entitled to the respect due to that authority. They thus have the duty (and right) as the ones in power, to do the things that must be done, for the running of the country. They can collect taxes, maintain the roads, regulate trade, defend the borders, etc, all for the common good.


    I agree. I don't mean to say that the State, by allowing gαy marriage, immediately loses all authority, and that the country is plunged into a state of anarchy. I merely mean to say that now, having allowed such an evil, the violent overthrow of the State would be a legitimate act on the grounds that it would suppress such an evil.

    Quote
    On the other hand, in the US, even though our government is technically "revolutionary," there is no popular and military support for a real counter-revolution, and so such a war would not be a real war, but an ιnѕυrrєcтισn, which everyone would justly condemn as "domestic terrorism."


    I agree with your reasoning in general here, but what if someone wanted to violently overthrow the US government not necessarily to form a Catholic government, but to suppress gαy marriage, abortion, and whatever was against natural/divine law? Even though it may not have popular support, does not divine and natural law trump the rights of the people? Again, to use an extreme example: say a group of revolutionaries in the Aztec Empire recognised that human sacrifice was against divine and natural law, and tried to overthrow the government on those grounds - would that be an illegitimate act of ιnѕυrrєcтισn if the popular sentiment was that human sacrifice should continue and the current rulers ought to stay in power?

    Offline St John Evangelist

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    Do gαy-marriage States Still Have the Right to Rule?
    « Reply #4 on: September 24, 2016, 03:47:23 PM »
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  • Continuing from above.

    To use another example. Would a small group of revolutionaries have acted legitimately if they tried to overthrow their own nαzι government, or their own Stalinist or Maoist government, despite the majority of people being against them? Would you have condemned a small group of Catholics' attempt to αssαssιnαtҽ Hitler and end nαzι rule as an act of "domestic terrorism"?

    And as an aside: are our own gαy marriage and abortion promoting governments morally superior to nαzι or Stalinist governments?


    Offline St John Evangelist

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    Do gαy-marriage States Still Have the Right to Rule?
    « Reply #5 on: September 24, 2016, 03:59:28 PM »
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  • Brutus conspired in the assassination of Julius Caesar on far less convincing grounds, in my opinion, yet people still debate whether or not his action was justified. Julius Caesar was accepted by the people, but Brutus and his co-conspirators called him a tyrant and therefore someone who could be legitimately deposed. Now if it is reasonable for a man like Brutus (and a man like Cicero also) to come to that conclusion, or to at least entertain the idea of it, then is it not reasonable for us to at least entertain the idea that our governments have lost the right to rule by promoting such evils, and therefore could be legitimately deposed? Note: I am not right now advocating for revolution, this is an academic question for the time being. What matters more to me is the matter of right, whether the government now has a right to rule, more than how to overthrow government.

    Offline St John Evangelist

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    Do gαy-marriage States Still Have the Right to Rule?
    « Reply #6 on: September 24, 2016, 04:03:24 PM »
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  • Also, I am not saying that we should despise our rulers and not pray for them just because they promote evil laws and institutions. I believe our ancestors prayed for the Roman Emperors that persecuted them.

    Offline RomanCatholic1953

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    Do gαy-marriage States Still Have the Right to Rule?
    « Reply #7 on: September 24, 2016, 10:26:06 PM »
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  • States that support the ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ agenda also supports all other acts of
    perversion.  They also have the most abortions. They become degenerate
    cesspools with very high crime rates. These rulers are very pro Israel and
    send their children of the nation to fight and die in unjust wars in the middle east.
    In a generation these states will be ruled by the immigrants and the migrants
    and false religion of Islam, and they will destroy all that was Christian and decent that remains.
    This is the way God will punish the sins of these global minded people whom
    abandoned the true religion and became evil.