Author Topic: Divorce and remarriage in the Orthodox Church (Read 3228 times)

Disputaciones · « **on:** May 23, 2016, 12:24:17 AM »

I have researched a little and I found out that they allow to divorce and remarry up to 3 times in the Orthodox Church in case of adultery. They also say that they do not even view the sacrament of marriage as an indissoluble vow, not at all they say. This is why they allow divorce and remarriage, because they do not think only death dissolves the tie.

What I don't know is when this started, if it was ever allowed before the schism. I would think not, since this idea would seem to invalidate marriage to begin with, but you never know. I wanted to know if this was a pure Orthodox invention or if there's actually something to it.

Would somebody happen to know more about this? I don't know what pre v2 sources are dedicated specifically to refuting all their errors. In Fortescue's book about them, he merely mentions that they allow 3 marriages and doesn't even say anything bad about it. He also does not list this point as one of the main ones that divide them from the Church. He basically says that the Pope and the Filioque questions are the only serious ones that divide, so I don't know if this is tacit approval of their teachings on marriage.

Cantarella · « **Reply #1 on:** May 23, 2016, 02:06:41 AM »

This practice probably comes from before the schism, around the IX century, when the Byzantine Emperor Leo VI, the Wise, (866 - 912) got divorced three times because his wives could not have any children, and he wanted to have an heir to the throne. He intended to get married a fourth time, but then the story says that the bishops said to him: "This is impossible. Three times is all you can do, and that’s it. There is no fourth marriage". The Great Schism occurred in the year 1054.

Here is more to it:

http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/re_marriage_in_the_orthodox_church

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #2 on:** May 23, 2016, 08:49:37 AM »

Quote from: Disputaciones

He basically says that the Pope and the Filioque questions are the only serious ones that divide, so I don't know if this is tacit approval of their teachings on marriage.

An entire book about schismatic heretics and the author just says it is about the pope and the Filioque? The author is not sending out a good signal there. This would be a great warning flag to me, to be leery of the author.

The maximum 3 marriage rule is a joke, it highlights the protestantism of the Eastern Orthodox, "give the people what they want".

Disputaciones · « **Reply #3 on:** May 23, 2016, 09:02:53 AM »

Quote from: Cantarella

This practice probably comes from before the schism, around the IX century, when the Byzantine Emperor Leo VI, the Wise, (866 - 912) got divorced three times because his wives could not have any children, and he wanted to have an heir to the throne. He intended to get married a fourth time, but then the story says that the bishops said to him: "This is impossible. Three times is all you can do, and that’s it. There is no fourth marriage". The Great Schism occurred in the year 1054.

Here is more to it:

http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/re_marriage_in_the_orthodox_church

According to Wikipedia all 3 wives of Leo VI actually died before each marriage, so if that's true then there was no divorce at all. The Patriarch simply didn't like a fourth valid marriage, but the catholic encyclopedia says that Rome approved of it.

But the Orthodox allow actual divorce and remarriage in the case of adultery.

I had listened to that audio before and it doesn't say whether it had always been like that or when it started.

Disputaciones · « **Reply #4 on:** May 23, 2016, 09:07:48 AM »

Quote from: Last Tradhican

Quote from: Disputaciones
He basically says that the Pope and the Filioque questions are the only serious ones that divide, so I don't know if this is tacit approval of their teachings on marriage.

An entire book about schismatic heretics and the author just says it is about the pope and the Filioque? The author is not sending out a good signal there. This would be a great warning flag to me, to be leery of the author.

The maximum 3 marriage rule is a joke, it highlights the protestantism of the Eastern Orthodox, "give the people what they want".

The author is Fr. Adrian Fortescue. He has an article about the Greek schism in the catholic encyclopedia and he also wrote a book about the Orthodox, but this book is not dedicated to refuting their errors. It is in the article that he says that the main errors can be boiled down to those two, not in the book, because they are the ones that touch on dogma, while the rest don't.

cathman7 · « **Reply #5 on:** May 23, 2016, 09:13:51 AM »

I found several Orthodox books in my library which explain their reasoning behind allowing "divorce". One thing to keep in mind is that the Orthodox decry "legalism" which they would argue affects the way the West views the sacraments and other issues.

Give me a moment to collect my sources....

cathman7 · « **Reply #6 on:** May 23, 2016, 09:23:59 AM »

1) The Orthodox Faith, Vol. 2, Worship, Fr. Thomas Hopko, 1976:

Quote

There is no "legalism" in the Orthodox sacrament of marriage. It is not a juridical contract. It contains no vows or oaths. It is, in essence, the "baptizing and confirming" of human love in God by Christ in the Holy Spirit. It is the deification of human love in the divine perfection and unity of the eternal Kingdom of God as revealed and given to man in the Church....

According to Orthodox teaching, only one marriage can contain the perfect meaning and significance which Christ has given to this reality. Thus, the Orthodox Christian tradition encourages widows and widowers to remain faithful to their spouses who are dead to this world but alive in Christ. The Orthodox tradition, also, by the same principle, considers temporary "living together," casual sɛҳuąƖ relations, sɛҳuąƖ relations with many different people, sɛҳuąƖ relations between members of the same sex, and the breakdown of marriages in separation and divorce, as contrary to the human perfection revealed by God in Christ. Through penance, however, and with the sincere confession of sins and the genuine promise of a good life together, the Orthodox Church does have a service of second marriage for those who have not be able to fulfill the ideal conditions of marriage as taught by Christ [my emphasis]. It is the practice of the Church as well not to exclude members of second marriages from the sacrament of holy communion if they desire to be in eucharistic fellowship with God, and if they fulfill all other conditions for participation in the life of the Church.

I think it was Cardinal Walter Kasper who stated that we could look to the Orthodox for an answer to the question of divorced and remarried Catholics receiving Holy Communion.

Disputaciones · « **Reply #7 on:** May 23, 2016, 09:32:27 AM »

Quote from: obscurus

1) The Orthodox Faith, Vol. 2, Worship, Fr. Thomas Hopko, 1976:

Quote
There is no "legalism" in the Orthodox sacrament of marriage. It is not a juridical contract. It contains no vows or oaths. It is, in essence, the "baptizing and confirming" of human love in God by Christ in the Holy Spirit. It is the deification of human love in the divine perfection and unity of the eternal Kingdom of God as revealed and given to man in the Church....

According to Orthodox teaching, only one marriage can contain the perfect meaning and significance which Christ has given to this reality. Thus, the Orthodox Christian tradition encourages widows and widowers to remain faithful to their spouses who are dead to this world but alive in Christ. The Orthodox tradition, also, by the same principle, considers temporary "living together," casual sɛҳuąƖ relations, sɛҳuąƖ relations with many different people, sɛҳuąƖ relations between members of the same sex, and the breakdown of marriages in separation and divorce, as contrary to the human perfection revealed by God in Christ. Through penance, however, and with the sincere confession of sins and the genuine promise of a good life together, the Orthodox Church does have a service of second marriage for those who have not be able to fulfill the ideal conditions of marriage as taught by Christ [my emphasis]. It is the practice of the Church as well not to exclude members of second marriages from the sacrament of holy communion if they desire to be in eucharistic fellowship with God, and if they fulfill all other conditions for participation in the life of the Church.

I think it was Cardinal Walter Kasper who stated that we could look to the Orthodox for an answer to the question of divorced and remarried Catholics receiving Holy Communion.

Yeah, Hopko repeats the same thing in the audio.

But how can we be sure that this is their own reasoning and that it wasn't like that before? When did it start?

cathman7 · « **Reply #8 on:** May 23, 2016, 09:35:26 AM »

2) The Orthodox Church, Bp. Kallistos Ware, 1997, p. 295 (New Edition):

Quote

The Orthodox Church permits divorce and remarriage, quoting as its authority the text of Matthew XIX, 9, where Our Lord says: 'If a man divorces his wife, for any cause other than unchastity, and marries another, he commits adultery.' Since Christ, according to the Matthaean account, allowed an exception to His general ruling about the indissolubility of marriage, the Orthodox Church also is willing to allow exceptions. Certainly Orthodoxy regards the marriage bond as in principle lifelong and indissoluble, and it sees the breakdown of marriage as a tragedy due to human weakness and sin. But while condemning the sin, the Church still desires to help suffering humans and to allow them a second chance. When, therefore, a marriage has entirely ceased to be a reality, the Orthodox Church does not insist on the preservation of a legal fiction. Divorce is seen as an exceptional but unavoidable concession to our human brokenness, living as we do in a fallen world. Yet although assisting men and women to rise again after a fall, the Orthodox Church knows that a second alliance cannot exactly have the same character as the first; and so in the service for a second marriage several of the joyful ceremonies are omitted, and replaced by penitential prayers. In practice, however, this second marriage service is scarcely ever used.

Orthodox Canon Law, while permitting a second or even a third marriage, absolutely forbids a fourth. In theory the Canons only permit divorce in cases of adultery, but in practice it is granted for other reasons as well.

cathman7 · « **Reply #9 on:** May 23, 2016, 09:37:48 AM »

Quote from: Disputaciones

Quote from: obscurus
1) The Orthodox Faith, Vol. 2, Worship, Fr. Thomas Hopko, 1976:

Quote
There is no "legalism" in the Orthodox sacrament of marriage. It is not a juridical contract. It contains no vows or oaths. It is, in essence, the "baptizing and confirming" of human love in God by Christ in the Holy Spirit. It is the deification of human love in the divine perfection and unity of the eternal Kingdom of God as revealed and given to man in the Church....

According to Orthodox teaching, only one marriage can contain the perfect meaning and significance which Christ has given to this reality. Thus, the Orthodox Christian tradition encourages widows and widowers to remain faithful to their spouses who are dead to this world but alive in Christ. The Orthodox tradition, also, by the same principle, considers temporary "living together," casual sɛҳuąƖ relations, sɛҳuąƖ relations with many different people, sɛҳuąƖ relations between members of the same sex, and the breakdown of marriages in separation and divorce, as contrary to the human perfection revealed by God in Christ. Through penance, however, and with the sincere confession of sins and the genuine promise of a good life together, the Orthodox Church does have a service of second marriage for those who have not be able to fulfill the ideal conditions of marriage as taught by Christ [my emphasis]. It is the practice of the Church as well not to exclude members of second marriages from the sacrament of holy communion if they desire to be in eucharistic fellowship with God, and if they fulfill all other conditions for participation in the life of the Church.

I think it was Cardinal Walter Kasper who stated that we could look to the Orthodox for an answer to the question of divorced and remarried Catholics receiving Holy Communion.

Yeah, Hopko repeats the same thing in the audio.

But how can we be sure that this is their own reasoning and that it wasn't like that before? When did it start?

An Orthodox priest I talked to years ago stated that this teaching is found in the Church Fathers which if very convenient for him to say so.

Viva Cristo Rey · « **Reply #10 on:** May 23, 2016, 09:41:19 AM »

Quote from: Disputaciones

I have researched a little and I found out that they allow to divorce and remarry up to 3 times in the Orthodox Church in case of adultery. They also say that they do not even view the sacrament of marriage as an indissoluble vow, not at all they say. This is why they allow divorce and remarriage, because they do not think only death dissolves the tie.

What I don't know is when this started, if it was ever allowed before the schism. I would think not, since this idea would seem to invalidate marriage to begin with, but you never know. I wanted to know if this was a pure Orthodox invention or if there's actually something to it.

Would somebody happen to know more about this? I don't know what pre v2 sources are dedicated specifically to refuting all their errors. In Fortescue's book about them, he merely mentions that they allow 3 marriages and doesn't even say anything bad about it. He also does not list this point as one of the main ones that divide them from the Church. He basically says that the Pope and the Filioque questions are the only serious ones that divide, so I don't know if this is tacit approval of their teachings on marriage.

Does it matter?

We are Catholics...

cathman7 · « **Reply #11 on:** May 23, 2016, 09:44:20 AM »

Quote from: Viva Cristo Rey

Quote from: Disputaciones
I have researched a little and I found out that they allow to divorce and remarry up to 3 times in the Orthodox Church in case of adultery. They also say that they do not even view the sacrament of marriage as an indissoluble vow, not at all they say. This is why they allow divorce and remarriage, because they do not think only death dissolves the tie.

What I don't know is when this started, if it was ever allowed before the schism. I would think not, since this idea would seem to invalidate marriage to begin with, but you never know. I wanted to know if this was a pure Orthodox invention or if there's actually something to it.

Would somebody happen to know more about this? I don't know what pre v2 sources are dedicated specifically to refuting all their errors. In Fortescue's book about them, he merely mentions that they allow 3 marriages and doesn't even say anything bad about it. He also does not list this point as one of the main ones that divide them from the Church. He basically says that the Pope and the Filioque questions are the only serious ones that divide, so I don't know if this is tacit approval of their teachings on marriage.

Does it matter?

We are Catholics...

The thing is the Orthodox also leave it up to couples to use contraception.

Disputaciones · « **Reply #12 on:** May 23, 2016, 10:52:36 AM »

Quote from: Viva Cristo Rey

Does it matter?

We are Catholics...

I wanted to know because a cousin of mine has been thinking about becoming Orthodox. She practically is at this point, it seems. She was raised Novus ordo and recently realized how bad it has all gotten so she has been allured by the supposed antiquity of the Orthodox. I had known they allow divorce and remarriage so I thought bringing up this point would make her realize they are a farce.

She started speaking to me about this because she knew I was a sedevacantist and thought I knew about the Orthodox. It doesn't really make sense to me why she asked me about it because she seems to be pretty convinced they are the true Church.

I had never personally dealt with someone being persuaded by these schismatics until now; I thought any reasonable person could see they are obvious fakes, so the whole thing has made me realize how deadly these schismatics really are.

Cantarella · « **Reply #13 on:** May 23, 2016, 11:23:24 AM »

Quote from: obscurus

Quote from: Disputaciones
Quote from: obscurus
1) The Orthodox Faith, Vol. 2, Worship, Fr. Thomas Hopko, 1976:

Quote
There is no "legalism" in the Orthodox sacrament of marriage. It is not a juridical contract. It contains no vows or oaths. It is, in essence, the "baptizing and confirming" of human love in God by Christ in the Holy Spirit. It is the deification of human love in the divine perfection and unity of the eternal Kingdom of God as revealed and given to man in the Church....

According to Orthodox teaching, only one marriage can contain the perfect meaning and significance which Christ has given to this reality. Thus, the Orthodox Christian tradition encourages widows and widowers to remain faithful to their spouses who are dead to this world but alive in Christ. The Orthodox tradition, also, by the same principle, considers temporary "living together," casual sɛҳuąƖ relations, sɛҳuąƖ relations with many different people, sɛҳuąƖ relations between members of the same sex, and the breakdown of marriages in separation and divorce, as contrary to the human perfection revealed by God in Christ. Through penance, however, and with the sincere confession of sins and the genuine promise of a good life together, the Orthodox Church does have a service of second marriage for those who have not be able to fulfill the ideal conditions of marriage as taught by Christ [my emphasis]. It is the practice of the Church as well not to exclude members of second marriages from the sacrament of holy communion if they desire to be in eucharistic fellowship with God, and if they fulfill all other conditions for participation in the life of the Church.

I think it was Cardinal Walter Kasper who stated that we could look to the Orthodox for an answer to the question of divorced and remarried Catholics receiving Holy Communion.

Yeah, Hopko repeats the same thing in the audio.

But how can we be sure that this is their own reasoning and that it wasn't like that before? When did it start?

An Orthodox priest I talked to years ago stated that this teaching is found in the Church Fathers which if very convenient for him to say so.

Yes, they say that and I think they mention St. John Chrysostom.

Arvinger · « **Reply #14 on:** May 23, 2016, 11:59:06 AM »

Eastern Orthodox and Protestants misinterpret so called Matthew's clauses (Mt 5:32 and Mt 19:9), where Jesus says that divorce is forbidden except for porneia. Protestant Bible translations translate it as "fornication" or "sɛҳuąƖ immorality", which implies that in case of adultery of one of the spouses divorce is permissible. This is of course abuse of the text, since the New Testament never uses the word porneia to describe adultery (the word used for adultery in the New Testament is moicheia), but it is used for incest (1 Corinthians 5:1) and ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ relationships (Romans 1:26-29), which by definition cannot be a valid marriage. It is clear therefore that in Matthew 5:32 and Matthew 19:9 Our Lord was talking not about divorce in case of adultery (as Protestants and Eastern Orthodox want), but about unions which wre null and void to begin with, which supports the Catholic teaching on annulments and indissolubility of marriage. If the Protestant and Eastern Orthodox interpretation was right there would be a contradiction between Mt 5:32/Mt 19:9 versus Lk 16:8 and Mk 10:12, where Jesus says no divorce, period.