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Author Topic: Debate - God specially created mankind less than 10,000 years ago.  (Read 7030 times)

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Re: Debate - God specially created mankind less than 10,000 years ago.
« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2022, 10:03:49 PM »
What St. Thomas speaks of there is one error that I consistently kept making when I was studying Creation on my own, namely, that sin changed the nature of lesser creatures. But it makes sense that the lion is going to eat the sheep, even before the Fall, because that is the natural order of things.

Re: Debate - God specially created mankind less than 10,000 years ago.
« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2022, 10:11:18 PM »
Oh my poor, aching mind!!!!!! What made me think I would benefit from tuning into this chaos????????????

I lasted about 1.5 hours, thanks only to my nifty deck of playing cards, and my nimble, anxiety-diverting, solitaire-playing hands. 

And now, to completely catharticize my assaulted nervous system, I must type. 

I have a cat. I can pet him, feed him, groom him, play with him. But reason with him, I cannot. Teach him, I cannot. Persuade him, I cannot. And this because he and I belong to completely different orders of created reality. I belong to the rational order, and he belongs to the sensitive order.

Just so with atheist oafs. By their grievous sins they have become like senseless beasts, and are degraded to the degree of participating only the sensitive order. Their affected rationality is pseudo-rationality, like when fakers make a chimp look like he's calculating sums. These blaspheming, mocking, inane baboons are sub-human. Hugh and Mark are literally casting precious pearls to possessed swine. Their "opponents" cannot even begin to make the distinctions indispensably necessary to carry on a conversation at this level. They cannot distinguish between orders of reality (natural/supernatural; objective/subjective; potency/act). They cannot understand, let alone apply the principles of reason/knowledge. They are entirely ignorant of the two sources of human knowledge. They cannot even begin to comprehend the real hierarchies of being, of knowledge, of the sciences, and of authority. They are incapable of thinking taxonomically. One of them was smugly throwing out accusations of logical fallacies, as if he were an adept at thinking, and not a trained orangutan.  

These filthy atheists are exactly like the vermin described by St. Jude: Ungodly men, turning the grace of our Lord God into riotousness, and denying the only sovereign Ruler, and our Lord Jesus Christ; defiling the flesh, despising dominion, blaspheming majesty. They blaspheme whatever things they know not: and what things soever they naturally know, like dumb beasts, in these they are corrupted. They have gone in the way of Cain: and after the error of Balaam they have for reward poured out themselves, and have perished in the contradiction of Core. These are spots in their banquets, feasting together without fear, feeding themselves, clouds without water, which are carried about by winds, trees of the autumn, unfruitful, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own confusion; wandering stars, to whom the storm of darkness is reserved for ever.

If one person listening to this chaotic noise is touched by Hugh, then his own suffering in bearing with these animals will have borne fruit. May God grant it!

As for me, do they still make Brioschi?








Re: Debate - God specially created mankind less than 10,000 years ago.
« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2022, 10:27:32 PM »
What St. Thomas speaks of there is one error that I consistently kept making when I was studying Creation on my own, namely, that sin changed the nature of lesser creatures. But it makes sense that the lion is going to eat the sheep, even before the Fall, because that is the natural order of things.
It really is an interesting question. 

Genesis 1 states: [29] And God said: Behold I have given you every herb bearing seed upon the earth, and all trees that have in themselves seed of their own kind, to be your meat:
Dixitque Deus : Ecce dedi vobis omnem herbam afferentem semen super terram, et universa ligna quae habent in semetipsis sementem generis sui, ut sint vobis in escam :

[30] And to all beasts of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to all that move upon the earth, and wherein there is life, that they may have to feed upon. And it was so done.
et cunctis animantibus terrae, omnique volucri caeli, et universis quae moventur in terra, et in quibus est anima vivens, ut habeant ad vescendum. Et factum est ita.

And St. Paul, Romans 8: [19] For the expectation of the creature waiteth for the revelation of the sons of God.

Nam exspectatio creaturae revelationem filiorum Dei exspectat.

[20] For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him that made it subject, in hope:
Vanitati enim creatura subjecta est non volens, sed propter eum, qui subjecit eam in spe :

[21] Because the creature also itself shall be delivered from the servitude of corruption, into the liberty of the glory of the children of God.
quia et ipsa creatura liberabitur a servitute corruptionis in libertatem gloriae filiorum Dei.

[22] For we know that every creature groaneth and travaileth in pain, even till now.
Scimus enim quod omnis creatura ingemiscit, et parturit usque adhuc.


Is it not the tradition of the Church that all of material creation fell with Adam's sin? Upon a simple reading of the texts, one might come away with the idea that all creatures ate herbs before the Fall. If I'm not mistaken, well-known creationist Paula Haigh held to that opinion. 

If she is correct, then why the differences in the teeth of carnivores and herbivores? It's hard to conceive that the Fall of man would have caused these kinds of changes in the physical characteristics of animals. Ultimately, I think the guiding principle is that the consequence of the Fall is to throw all of material creation into disorder. The body rebels against the soul, though the soul's rightful dominion is not obliterated. And the creature rebels against man, though his rightful dominion over the earth is not obliterated.

Re: Debate - God specially created mankind less than 10,000 years ago.
« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2022, 10:40:19 PM »
Sure, it's an interesting topic worth looking into. It's in question 96 article 1 of the first part of the Summa: https://www.newadvent.org/summa/1096.htm He covers this question in his Reply to Objection 2.


Basically, he says that before the Fall predators didn't attack man, but that predators did eat other animals. In addition to the link; I've reproduced the objection and the reply below (I bolded the relevant text.) 

Objection 2. Further, it is unfitting that elements hostile to one another should be brought under the mastership of one. But many animals are hostile to one another, as the sheep and the wolf. Therefore all animals were not brought under the mastership of man.

Reply to Objection 2. In the opinion of some, those animals which now are fierce and kill others, would, in that state [of innocence], have been tame, not only in regard to man, but also in regard to other animals. But this is quite unreasonable. For the nature of animals was not changed by man's sin, as if those whose nature now it is to devour the flesh of others, would then have lived on herbs, as the lion and falcon. Nor does Bede's gloss on Genesis 1:30 say that trees and herbs were given as food to all animals and birds, but to some. Thus there would have been a natural antipathy between some animals. They would not, however, on this account have been excepted from the mastership of man: as neither at present are they for that reason excepted from the mastership of God, Whose Providence has ordained all this. Of this Providence man would have been the executor, as appears even now in regard to domestic animals, since fowls are given by men as food to the trained falcon. 

Thanks for this! 

Re: Debate - God specially created mankind less than 10,000 years ago.
« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2022, 12:05:19 AM »
Thanks for the commentary, Simeon.
I wasn't available to watch it.

Quote
As for me, do they still make Brioschi?


Apparently they do: