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Author Topic: Debate - God specially created mankind less than 10,000 years ago.  (Read 6989 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Debate - God specially created mankind less than 10,000 years ago.
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2022, 06:13:55 AM »
Quote from: Nadir on May 24, 2022, 12:43:10 AM
I am puzzled as to why some of you are rambling about protestants when the debate is between Catholics and atheists.

Just a tangent, which often happens here.
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Offline hansel

Re: Debate - God specially created mankind less than 10,000 years ago.
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2022, 01:08:51 PM »
Quote
Nadir said: I am puzzled as to why some of you are rambling about protestants when the debate is between Catholics and atheists.
I think an additional reason why is in most of these public evolution/age of earth debates with atheists etc., the creationist/young earth advocate has been a Protestant, not a Catholic. Therefore, there are always going to be comparisons to these previous events. 


Really, there is a ton of potential for qualified Catholics to get involved in these kinds of debates, and it would be interesting to see what kind of approach Kolbe Center or others would take. The Protestant creationists (Ken Ham, Kent Hovind, etc.) do have their points, but more and more that they allow their bone-headed Protestant theology to contaminate their arguments.

Ken Ham for example wastes immense energy, time, and space in his Creation Museum and his debates trying to "prove" that all predators ate plants before the Fall, while St. Thomas Aquinas soundly rejects that very notion in the Summa. A truly traditional Catholic debater (and a solid formation in true natural science as well as the higher sciences) could outperform many of these Protestants. 

Not that the Protestant creationists don't have their points, and it can be helpful to listen to them; there is a lot more material out there by them. However, once the conversation switches from the very general topic of "creation" to "Catholics", watch out; even the "better" ones are pretty execrable, and this can definitely color their other opinions. A pretty nasty example of this from Kent Hovind: https://youtu.be/NkVK9w91CTc?t=1926  

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Offline Nadir

Re: Debate - God specially created mankind less than 10,000 years ago.
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2022, 05:38:08 PM »
Thank you, Hansel.

The debate is live in 2 hours. 
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Offline StLouisIX

Re: Debate - God specially created mankind less than 10,000 years ago.
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2022, 09:35:13 PM »
Quote from: hansel on May 24, 2022, 01:08:51 PM
Ken Ham for example wastes immense energy, time, and space in his Creation Museum and his debates trying to "prove" that all predators ate plants before the Fall, while St. Thomas Aquinas soundly rejects that very notion in the Summa. A truly traditional Catholic debater (and a solid formation in true natural science as well as the higher sciences) could outperform many of these Protestants.

Where did St. Thomas write on this subject in the Summa? I'm curious and want to read into it myself. 
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Offline hansel

Re: Debate - God specially created mankind less than 10,000 years ago.
« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2022, 10:01:06 PM »
Quote
StLouisIX said: Where did St. Thomas write on this subject in the Summa? I'm curious and want to read into it myself.
Sure, it's an interesting topic worth looking into. It's in question 96 article 1 of the first part of the Summa: https://www.newadvent.org/summa/1096.htm He covers this question in his Reply to Objection 2.


Basically, he says that before the Fall predators didn't attack man, but that predators did eat other animals. In addition to the link; I've reproduced the objection and the reply below (I bolded the relevant text.) 

Objection 2. Further, it is unfitting that elements hostile to one another should be brought under the mastership of one. But many animals are hostile to one another, as the sheep and the wolf. Therefore all animals were not brought under the mastership of man.

Reply to Objection 2. In the opinion of some, those animals which now are fierce and kill others, would, in that state [of innocence], have been tame, not only in regard to man, but also in regard to other animals. But this is quite unreasonable. For the nature of animals was not changed by man's sin, as if those whose nature now it is to devour the flesh of others, would then have lived on herbs, as the lion and falcon. Nor does Bede's gloss on Genesis 1:30 say that trees and herbs were given as food to all animals and birds, but to some. Thus there would have been a natural antipathy between some animals. They would not, however, on this account have been excepted from the mastership of man: as neither at present are they for that reason excepted from the mastership of God, Whose Providence has ordained all this. Of this Providence man would have been the executor, as appears even now in regard to domestic animals, since fowls are given by men as food to the trained falcon. 

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