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Author Topic: Debate - God specially created mankind less than 10,000 years ago.  (Read 3516 times)

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Offline Nadir

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Debate - God specially created mankind less than 10,000 years ago.
« on: May 23, 2022, 09:05:43 PM »
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    • Dear Friends of the Kolbe Center, 
     
    Pax Christi!
     
    Tomorrow, Tuesday, May 24, at 9 p.m. EST, Dr. Kevin Mark and I will have an internet debate with a prominent atheist Youtuber, Tom Jump, and one of his associates, Mark Reid. We will be defending the proposition that "God specially created mankind less than ten thousand years ago." The debate will be viewable on line at the Modern Day Debates website at this link.
     
    If you would like to ask a question after the first two rounds of the debate, please email me at howen@shentel.net now and I will tell you how to ensure that your question will be asked.
     
    Tomorrow is the Feast of Our Lady Help of Christians. Please join us in praying for her intercession that She will grant success to our efforts and lead many souls to her Son through this debate.
     
    In Domino, 
     
    Hugh Owen

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    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Debate - God specially created mankind less than 10,000 years ago.
    « Reply #1 on: May 23, 2022, 09:33:03 PM »
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    prominent atheist Youtuber, Tom Jump,
    Well, God bless them for trying. I remember the debate between Ken Hamm and Bill Nye years ago when I was an atheist, and that did nothing to convince me except to laugh at him.
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    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline bodeens

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    Re: Debate - God specially created mankind less than 10,000 years ago.
    « Reply #2 on: May 23, 2022, 09:36:53 PM »
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    • Jump is somewhat cautious on evolution (ATCG randomized microevolution only, I notice smarter atheists have retreated to this) but this is probably going to be people talking past each other because there is just 0 common ground for someone like Jump and Dr. Mark. Less interesting than evolution debates TBH because creationists and atheists have more common ground there.
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    Offline bodeens

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    Re: Debate - God specially created mankind less than 10,000 years ago.
    « Reply #3 on: May 23, 2022, 09:59:53 PM »
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    • I think the problem I always have with these is that it is always Protestants who aren't that familiar with philosophy. I recall this one video that made me chuckle, where a moderator of a "Christian" debate server got super angry and started angrily repeating something to the effect of "YOU HAVE NOT DISPROVED THE CHRISTIAN GOD". Whenever I see an atheist use the term I chuckle inside a little. Why a "Christian" wouldn't just use the term "God" instead is beyond me but that is Protestantism and "apologetics".
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    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Debate - God specially created mankind less than 10,000 years ago.
    « Reply #4 on: May 23, 2022, 10:10:41 PM »
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    • Quote from: bodeens on May 23, 2022, 09:59:53 PM
    I think the problem I always have with these is that it is always Protestants who aren't that familiar with philosophy. I recall this one video that made me chuckle, where a moderator of a "Christian" debate server got super angry and started angrily repeating something to the effect of "YOU HAVE NOT DISPROVED THE CHRISTIAN GOD". Whenever I see an atheist use the term I chuckle inside a little. Why a "Christian" wouldn't just use the term "God" instead is beyond me but that is Protestantism and "apologetics".
    Protestantism, in all of its flavors, is pure cringe and is solely responsible for keeping me away from Christ for 27 years of my life (give or take 2 or so as a Methodist when I was a kid, which was also cringe). It's funny, because I remember having respect for what little I knew of Catholicism but it was the Evangelical and Baptist-variety "Christianity" that kept me from taking it seriously.

    My wife and I would watch "Jesus Camp" and other stuff for a laugh.
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    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline bodeens

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    Re: Debate - God specially created mankind less than 10,000 years ago.
    « Reply #5 on: May 23, 2022, 10:20:03 PM »
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    • Quote from: DigitalLogos on May 23, 2022, 10:10:41 PM
    Protestantism, in all of its flavors, is pure cringe and is solely responsible for keeping me away from Christ for 27 years of my life (give or take 2 or so as a Methodist when I was a kid, which was also cringe). It's funny, because I remember having respect for what little I knew of Catholicism but it was the Evangelical and Baptist-variety "Christianity" that kept me from taking it seriously.

    My wife and I would watch "Jesus Camp" and other stuff for a laugh.
    I had the exact same problems. I was open to God but no one would show me something like Augustine, Aquinas etc. All people talked about was "grace" (I am using quotes because Protestants toss this around in a nebulous fashion), justification by faith and "being saved". If someone would have showed me the Dimonds 20-25 years ago... I am here now and God chose this for a reason so I am thankful, even if I'm late to the vineyard.  

    This is one of the (many) reasons I have resolved as a parent to treat my kids in an intellectually serious and honest manner.
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    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Debate - God specially created mankind less than 10,000 years ago.
    « Reply #6 on: May 23, 2022, 10:29:20 PM »
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    • Quote from: DigitalLogos on May 23, 2022, 09:33:03 PM
    Well, God bless them for trying. I remember the debate between Ken Hamm and Bill Nye years ago when I was an atheist, and that did nothing to convince me except to laugh at him.
    Laugh at Ken Hamm, or laugh at Bill Nye?
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Debate - God specially created mankind less than 10,000 years ago.
    « Reply #7 on: May 23, 2022, 10:32:33 PM »
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    • Quote from: SimpleMan on May 23, 2022, 10:29:20 PM
    Laugh at Ken Hamm, or laugh at Bill Nye?

    Same question crossed my mind.  Nye is a total buffoon.  Don’t care for Hamm too much, but I’ve always like listening to Hovind.
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    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Debate - God specially created mankind less than 10,000 years ago.
    « Reply #8 on: May 24, 2022, 12:43:10 AM »
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    • I am puzzled as to why some of you are rambling about protestants when the debate is between Catholics and atheists.
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    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Debate - God specially created mankind less than 10,000 years ago.
    « Reply #9 on: May 24, 2022, 04:41:20 AM »
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    • Quote from: SimpleMan on May 23, 2022, 10:29:20 PM
    Laugh at Ken Hamm, or laugh at Bill Nye?
    Both, but mostly Hamm
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    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Debate - God specially created mankind less than 10,000 years ago.
    « Reply #10 on: May 24, 2022, 06:13:55 AM »
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    • Quote from: Nadir on May 24, 2022, 12:43:10 AM
    I am puzzled as to why some of you are rambling about protestants when the debate is between Catholics and atheists.

    Just a tangent, which often happens here.
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    Offline hansel

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    Re: Debate - God specially created mankind less than 10,000 years ago.
    « Reply #11 on: May 24, 2022, 01:08:51 PM »
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    Nadir said: I am puzzled as to why some of you are rambling about protestants when the debate is between Catholics and atheists.
    I think an additional reason why is in most of these public evolution/age of earth debates with atheists etc., the creationist/young earth advocate has been a Protestant, not a Catholic. Therefore, there are always going to be comparisons to these previous events. 


    Really, there is a ton of potential for qualified Catholics to get involved in these kinds of debates, and it would be interesting to see what kind of approach Kolbe Center or others would take. The Protestant creationists (Ken Ham, Kent Hovind, etc.) do have their points, but more and more that they allow their bone-headed Protestant theology to contaminate their arguments.

    Ken Ham for example wastes immense energy, time, and space in his Creation Museum and his debates trying to "prove" that all predators ate plants before the Fall, while St. Thomas Aquinas soundly rejects that very notion in the Summa. A truly traditional Catholic debater (and a solid formation in true natural science as well as the higher sciences) could outperform many of these Protestants. 

    Not that the Protestant creationists don't have their points, and it can be helpful to listen to them; there is a lot more material out there by them. However, once the conversation switches from the very general topic of "creation" to "Catholics", watch out; even the "better" ones are pretty execrable, and this can definitely color their other opinions. A pretty nasty example of this from Kent Hovind: https://youtu.be/NkVK9w91CTc?t=1926  

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    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Debate - God specially created mankind less than 10,000 years ago.
    « Reply #12 on: May 24, 2022, 05:38:08 PM »
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    • Thank you, Hansel.

    The debate is live in 2 hours. 
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    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    Offline StLouisIX

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    Re: Debate - God specially created mankind less than 10,000 years ago.
    « Reply #13 on: May 24, 2022, 09:35:13 PM »
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    • Quote from: hansel on May 24, 2022, 01:08:51 PM
    Ken Ham for example wastes immense energy, time, and space in his Creation Museum and his debates trying to "prove" that all predators ate plants before the Fall, while St. Thomas Aquinas soundly rejects that very notion in the Summa. A truly traditional Catholic debater (and a solid formation in true natural science as well as the higher sciences) could outperform many of these Protestants.

    Where did St. Thomas write on this subject in the Summa? I'm curious and want to read into it myself. 
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    Offline hansel

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    Re: Debate - God specially created mankind less than 10,000 years ago.
    « Reply #14 on: May 24, 2022, 10:01:06 PM »
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    StLouisIX said: Where did St. Thomas write on this subject in the Summa? I'm curious and want to read into it myself.
    Sure, it's an interesting topic worth looking into. It's in question 96 article 1 of the first part of the Summa: https://www.newadvent.org/summa/1096.htm He covers this question in his Reply to Objection 2.


    Basically, he says that before the Fall predators didn't attack man, but that predators did eat other animals. In addition to the link; I've reproduced the objection and the reply below (I bolded the relevant text.) 

    Objection 2. Further, it is unfitting that elements hostile to one another should be brought under the mastership of one. But many animals are hostile to one another, as the sheep and the wolf. Therefore all animals were not brought under the mastership of man.

    Reply to Objection 2. In the opinion of some, those animals which now are fierce and kill others, would, in that state [of innocence], have been tame, not only in regard to man, but also in regard to other animals. But this is quite unreasonable. For the nature of animals was not changed by man's sin, as if those whose nature now it is to devour the flesh of others, would then have lived on herbs, as the lion and falcon. Nor does Bede's gloss on Genesis 1:30 say that trees and herbs were given as food to all animals and birds, but to some. Thus there would have been a natural antipathy between some animals. They would not, however, on this account have been excepted from the mastership of man: as neither at present are they for that reason excepted from the mastership of God, Whose Providence has ordained all this. Of this Providence man would have been the executor, as appears even now in regard to domestic animals, since fowls are given by men as food to the trained falcon. 

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