Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Crisis in the Church  (Read 1078 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline songbird

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4670
  • Reputation: +1765/-353
  • Gender: Female
Crisis in the Church
« on: August 15, 2017, 11:14:35 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • Your thoughts on this, please?  I was born in1952.  In a catholic school and I remember taking breakfast and lunch to school.  We had our breakfast after the 7:30 am Mass. We had water before we left our home.  Then the fasting changed and by 1968, I remember eating breakfast  and an hour later Mass began.  

    It crosses my mind for more specifics, details.  Who was behind the changes and were the reasons for change reasonable?

    What also crosses my mind is what brings us to, or helps us to the "Real Presence of Our Lord."  For example: kneel, altar railings, bells that ring.  

    I am reading  books on Fatima of 1986, that Christ was very offended and the bishops of Portugal, Spain and other religious communities were being lax.  So, I think, hm, is changing the fast from years ago apart of this laxity?


    Offline stgobnait

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1346
    • Reputation: +941/-65
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Crisis in the Church
    « Reply #1 on: August 15, 2017, 11:21:39 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Probably right, I remember the fast too, and we would have three sips of water on return from Mass in honour of The Blessed Trinity, before we would eat breakfast, those were the days my friend... :pray:


    Offline songbird

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4670
    • Reputation: +1765/-353
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Crisis in the Church
    « Reply #2 on: August 15, 2017, 04:14:38 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Oh, thank you for your reply.  I never heard of that!

    Offline DZ PLEASE

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2928
    • Reputation: +741/-787
    • Gender: Male
    • "Lord, have mercy."
    Re: Crisis in the Church
    « Reply #3 on: August 15, 2017, 04:23:42 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Depressing to have lost what one has never known, and likely never will.
    "Lord, have mercy".

    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 13823
    • Reputation: +5568/-865
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Crisis in the Church
    « Reply #4 on: August 15, 2017, 04:40:40 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • That is all part of the changes.

    Used to be fast after midnight, then 3 hours, then the NO had one hour, not sure but I don't think there is any fast anymore in the NO. I worked with a NOer who spoke of having breakfast at a restaurant with her priest before mass. 
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline songbird

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4670
    • Reputation: +1765/-353
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Crisis in the Church
    « Reply #5 on: August 15, 2017, 10:13:46 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • In the book, "undermining the church" about page 178, is stated that Paul VI, Montini, said 15 minutes! Burp!

    Offline Neil Obstat

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 18177
    • Reputation: +8276/-692
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Crisis in the Church
    « Reply #6 on: August 15, 2017, 11:19:31 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • .
    You do realize there is an entire forum on CathInfo with the same title as your thread?

    https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/

    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline Neil Obstat

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 18177
    • Reputation: +8276/-692
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Crisis in the Church
    « Reply #7 on: August 15, 2017, 11:35:31 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • That is all part of the changes.

    Used to be fast after midnight, then 3 hours, then the NO had one hour, not sure but I don't think there is any fast anymore in the NO. I worked with a NOer who spoke of having breakfast at a restaurant with her priest before mass.
    .
    For readers who don't already know this, as I recall, in about 1959 the requirement for fasting from midnight before morning Mass was changed to fasting for 3 hours minimum, but a lot of Catholics continued the fast from midnight because it was what they were accustomed to and they didn't want to reduce their mortification. That was when penance was a voluntary thing, I guess. Right around 1965 or coincidentally when the Vatican II ended, the 3 hour fast was reduced to one hour. I remember this being in 4th grade at the time, so I know it was '65 when I was 9 or 10. I'm just going by memory, and what classroom I attended, and who my teacher was. Kids remember stuff like that.
    .
    I don't recall knowing of anyone at the time who kept the fast from midnight when the rule was reduced to one hour, but my own mother did not like moving to one hour so our family generally practiced the three hour fast out of voluntary mortification. I recall my siblings not cooperating very well with this idea. They have all gone Novus Ordo or left the Church today.
    .
    It wasn't until I found TLM communities that I met people who had never abandoned the fast from midnight, and a whole parade of modern priests (TLM) who didn't mind hearing in Confession penitents confessing having not kept the fast from midnight. They all have been saying that if we're going to abide by the pre-Vat.II rules we ought to abide by them ALL. 
    .
    I know that's the same thing you were saying, Stubborn, but I was thinking if I didn't know the whole story, I would like to have someone explain it in more detail. These details are significant.
    .
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.


    Offline Neil Obstat

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 18177
    • Reputation: +8276/-692
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Crisis in the Church
    « Reply #8 on: August 15, 2017, 11:50:27 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Probably right, I remember the fast too, and we would have three sips of water on return from Mass in honour of The Blessed Trinity, before we would eat breakfast, those were the days my friend... :pray:

    At my grammar school, run by Franciscan nuns, all 300 students would line up on Thursday once a month to go to Confession in waves of parochial school uniforms in motion. We all went, whether we needed to or not! Call it peer pressure. In a good way. 
    .
    Then First Friday morning, we all showed up ready for Mass, and would process in double lines to the Church and file orderly into place in the pews. Nobody dared fool around. Nobody talked in Church. Nobody doodled or played with Fidget Spinners or cell phones. We didn't eve HAVE Fidget Spinners!
    .
    When it was time for Mass we all used our missals and paid attention to everything, in silence. At Communion, we all processed in double lines on the two sides of the center aisle. The only flaw in our movements was that we kind of wobbled left to right. In a good way.
    .
    When Mass was over, we all left in order and proceeded to school in straight, double lines. I remember years later reading the book Madeline, and being amused to see other people my age or younger who thought the way they processed in two straight lines was amusing, like they were happenby or something. Weird.
    .
    Effectively, we did this every month, year after year, therefore the school generated several hundred children who had made their 9 First Saturdays several times by the time they finished the school.
    .
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 16439
    • Reputation: +4863/-1803
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Crisis in the Church
    « Reply #9 on: August 16, 2017, 07:20:39 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Nowadays, Mass at a Catholic school is rare most likely because they don't want to offend the non Catholics who pay the high tuition.
    Catholic education is a business instead of teaching the faith. With political ties with liberals Catholic schools are being used to brainwash and poison the children with lies and sin. 
    May God bless you and keep you

    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 16439
    • Reputation: +4863/-1803
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Crisis in the Church
    « Reply #10 on: August 16, 2017, 07:37:18 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Some people fast; some don't.

    Those who don't fast break wind during Mass ; even some priests.
    Real loud toots too and smelly. 
    Children are eating breakfast during Mass.  

    May God bless you and keep you


    Offline MyrnaM

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6273
    • Reputation: +3628/-347
    • Gender: Female
      • Myforever.blog/blog
    Re: Crisis in the Church
    « Reply #11 on: August 16, 2017, 09:36:17 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I remember well the nuns teaching that to start the fast after midnight for anyone receiving Holy Communion was to remind us that Jesus Christ comes first.  Meaning that when we receive Him on our tongue it should be the very first thing that we eat that day!  I always thought that was a nice way of looking at it, and when the changes started I was scandalized.  

    We are not even allowed to drink one drop of water because it broke the fast.

    Please pray for my soul.
    R.I.P. 8/17/22

    My new blog @ https://myforever.blog/blog/

    Offline TKGS

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 5768
    • Reputation: +4621/-480
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Crisis in the Church
    « Reply #12 on: August 16, 2017, 10:22:16 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I researched this a few months ago. Unfortunately, my docuмentation and references are on my old computer which is no longer accessible.  I was doing it for my own understanding so I did not worry about keeping that information.

    The change from midnight to a three hour fast was made by Pope Pius XII.  The change was not made for the benefit of the faithful, but rather for the clergy.  In the past, priests really only said Mass on a Sunday in their home parish or where they happened to be on a Sunday.  Even if they said three Masses due to the numbers of faithful at the parish, he seldom traveled nor was it thought that most priests would be overly burdened in waiting to break their fast until after he said all of the Masses he was to say on any particular day.  With new transportation technology and larger Catholic populations during the early 20th Century, the pope noted that many priests, in order to fulfill the needs of the faithful, were having to say Mass at one parish and travel by train or automobile to another, and sometimes, to a third.  The pope came to realize that this was a risk to the health and safety to many priests and, so, he reduced the fast to three hours in order to allow priests, when needed, to take nourishment after a Mass even when he was to say a Mass later that day.  The pope clearly spelled out these reasons in the docuмent that established the three hour fast.  The change was made to apply universally since it would not be appropriate to make different fasting laws for clergy that did not apply to the faithful.

    The docuмent that further changed the Eucharistic fast to one hour under "Pope" Montini appears in the Acts of the Apostolic See.  It is not a papal docuмent but, rather, is from one of the Vatican congregations and is unsigned.  It is very terse and simply states that the Eucharistic fast has been changed to one hour before the reception of Holy Communion and is made in response to requests made for pastoral reasons.  

    Offline songbird

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4670
    • Reputation: +1765/-353
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Crisis in the Church
    « Reply #13 on: August 16, 2017, 10:56:14 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Thank you for all your responses!  They cover many areas that I was thinking.  the changes for the clergy, understood.  Christ, the first taken into our mouths for the day.  We kept our fasts up to 1966 as I recall.  We had water, but nothing else.  We had our breakfast in the classroom.  I remember the children walking from the classroom to the church, two abreast in lines.  The nun, snapped her rubber band against her missal and we all genuflected.  If we came by bus, a little late, we put our lunches in the cellar of the church on old pews and went up to the church and went to Mass.  

    Yes, all these actions, mortifications are what put our minds in the spiritual mode.  And they wonder today, why the Real Presence is lost.  

    Offline TKGS

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 5768
    • Reputation: +4621/-480
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Crisis in the Church
    « Reply #14 on: August 16, 2017, 11:07:20 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • We kept our fasts up to 1966 as I recall.
    Very good memory.  I remember that we used to be very careful about not eating before Mass.  My mother didn't even drink coffee--and if she wasn't drinking coffee it had to be serious!  I don't know what other people did, but this continued until shortly after the new church building was opened in the early 1970s (not later than around 1973).  Soon after, our parish started the Saturday evening Mass at the order of the archbishop (I heard that our parish was the last one in the Seattle archdiocese to have a Saturday evening Mass).  When my parents decided to go to Saturday Mass one time for some reason, we started keeping only to the one hour fast because Mass wasn't until 7:00 pm.