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Offline Timothy

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Cremation
« on: September 26, 2013, 11:56:32 AM »
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  • What are your thoughts on cremation?  I understand that, traditionally, the church forbade it because it was being used by heretics and pagans to deny the General Resurrection.  The NO permits it, as I understand it, so long as it is not being sought in an effort to deny the General Resurrection, or some other bad motive.  Of course, cremation of the body cannot stop God when the time for the General Resurrection comes, and most likely the vast majority of the dead will be nothing but ashes at that point anyway, having been dead for so long.

    What do you think?  If a person desires cremation for a "tolerable" reason (perhaps, for example, it will be cheaper for the survivors than to pay for a casket and a grave site), is it acceptable?


    Offline Matto

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    Cremation
    « Reply #1 on: September 26, 2013, 01:11:31 PM »
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  • I would not be cremated because the Church traditionally forbade it until the Church changed everything.
    R.I.P.
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    Offline songbird

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    Cremation
    « Reply #2 on: September 26, 2013, 02:10:46 PM »
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  • Actions speak louder than words.  Cremation is pagan.  And excommunication.

    Offline Stephen Francis

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    Cremation
    « Reply #3 on: September 26, 2013, 03:52:01 PM »
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  • No room for discussion there. Cremation is forbidden for Catholics.
    This evil of heresy spreads itself. The doctrines of godliness are overturned; the rules of the Church are in confusion; the ambition of the unprincipled seizes upon places of authority; and the chief seat [the Papacy] is now openly proposed as a rewar

    Offline Cantarella

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    Cremation
    « Reply #4 on: September 26, 2013, 04:03:42 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matto
    I would not be cremated because the Church traditionally forbade it until the Church changed everything.


    I would not be cremated because the body of a true Catholic is a precious relic.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.


    Offline Frances

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    Cremation
    « Reply #5 on: September 26, 2013, 07:17:44 PM »
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  •  :heretic:
    Cremation is wrong except in cases where it is the result of an accident or by the state to halt or prevent epidemic outbreak of disease.
     St. Francis Xavier threw a Crucifix into the sea, at once calming the waves.  Upon reaching the shore, the Crucifix was returned to him by a crab with a curious cross pattern on its shell.  

    Offline Timothy

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    Cremation
    « Reply #6 on: September 26, 2013, 07:20:59 PM »
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  • Quote from: Frances
    :heretic:
    Cremation is wrong except in cases where it is the result of an accident or by the state to halt or prevent epidemic outbreak of disease.


    As far as I am aware, the Church has never taught that cremation, in it of itself, is wrong.  Rather, the Church forbade it because it was used by pagans and heretics to deny and mock Catholic teaching.

    Offline Nadir

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    Cremation
    « Reply #7 on: September 26, 2013, 10:09:12 PM »
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  • Here is a good explanation: (Paragraphing and emphasis is mine.)

    http://www.olvrc.com/norms/cremation.html

    Quote
    Why Cremation Is Forbidden by the Church

     The traditional Code of Canon Law of the Roman Catholic Church (1917) explicitly forbids and condemns the practice of cremation: "The bodies of the faithful deceased must be buried; and their cremation is reprobated. (Canon 1203:1) If a person has in any way ordered that his body be cremated it is illicit to obey such instructions; and if such a provision occur in a contract, last testament, or in any docuмent whatsoever, it is to be disregarded." (Canon 1203:2)

    A study of anthropology shows that in all ages religious belief has been closely associated with the disposing of the dead. From the very beginning, Christians adopted earth burial for we believe in immortality. The very word cemetery chosen for burial places means in Greek a dormitory or sleeping ground. As Christ was buried and rose again, so our dead are buried until they also rise again with Christ. Through the ages the Christian Church has blessed and sanctified 'God's Acres,' to which relatives may go to kneel and pray for those they loved and whom they are to meet again in a happy eternity. Our cemetery therefore suggests a dormitory in which our departed ones but sleep until they awake to their new life in Christ.

    Thus, Christians never burned their dead but followed from earliest days the practice of the Semitic race and the personal example of the Divine Founder. It is recorded that in times of persecution many risked their lives to recover the bodies of martyrs for the holy rites of Christian burial.

    The pagans, to destroy faith in the resurrection of the body, often cast the corpses of martyred Christians into the flames, fondly believing thus to render impossible the resurrection of the body. In order to inculcate in the faithful due respect for their bodies as temples of the Holy Ghost and as instruments through which one can reach heaven, the Church commands her subjects to inter the bodies of deceased Christians.

    An additional reason for this command is to offset the teachings of certain enemies of religion. Some of these endeavor to spread the practice of cremation in order to destroy belief in the immortality of the soul and in the resurrection of the body at the Last Judgment. The legislation of the Church in forbidding cremation rests on strong motives; for cremation in the majority of cases today is knit up with circuмstances that make of it a public profession of irreligious materialism. It was the Freemasons who first obtained official recognition of this practice from various governments. The Church has opposed from the beginning a practice which has been used chiefly by the enemies of the Christian Faith. Reasons based on the spirit of Christian charity and the plain interests of humanity have but strengthened this opposition.

    The Church holds it unseemly that the human body, once the living temple of God, the instrument of heavenly virtue, sanctified so often by the sacraments, should finally be subjected to a treatment that filial piety, conjugal and fraternal love, or even mere friendship seems to revolt against as inhuman.

    Another argument against cremation, and drawn from medico-legal sources, lies in this: That cremation destroys all signs of violence or traces of poison, and makes examination impossible, whereas a judicial autopsy is always possible after exhumation, even after some months. The prohibition of the cremation of corpses is not based on natural law. In exceptional cases (e.g., in time of war or epidemic) cremation is permitted, if a real public necessity requires it.

    The reasons for the anti-cremation law are: the tradition of the Old and New Testaments (Gen., iii, 19; I Cor., xv. 42), and especially the example of Christ whose body was consigned to the tomb; the association of burial throughout the history of the Church with sacred rites and the doctrine of the future life, and the contrary association of cremation both in times past and today with paganism and despair; the sacred dignity of the human body (Gen., i. 26; I Cor. iii. 16, vi. 5), and the feeling of affection for parents, relatives, friends, which is outraged when their bodies are consigned to the furnace.

    It is not lawful for a Catholic to cooperate with cremation or with any society that promotes the incineration of corpses; it is not lawful for a priest to give the last sacraments or funeral rites to those who ordered the cremation of their bodies. The law of the Catholic Church not only requires that the bodies of deceased Catholics be buried, but it expressly forbids their cremation. Even the bodies of immature babies, of whatever age they may be, are as a rule to be buried. These babies were living human beings, and therefore their bodies should receive fitting burial. The church law demands the interment not only of the entire body of the deceased; but it requires the burial of even notable parts which have been excised from living persons.

    Cremation symbolizes annihilation and the materialistic idea that all is over at death. "No wonder Catholics oppose cremation," said the Italian Freemason Ghisleri.. "They have good reason to do so. Our crematoria will shake the foundations of Catholic doctrine." The whole liturgy of the Church is adapted to earth burial. It is part of Christian worship to be buried in the Christian way, in consecrated ground. The Church reverences the dead who have been anointed in Baptism and whose bodies have been the temples of the Holy Ghost during life. A Crematorium is but an incinerator under another name. We build incinerators for refuse; and humane instincts rebel against the burning of a loved mother as so much offal. The end is not 'God's Acre,' but a container of ashes. Cremation also symbolizes annihilation, with its rapid and complete destruction of the last visible traces of those whom we knew and loved in life.

    Atheists and materialists were not slow to perceive this significance. They were responsible for introducing this revival of a pagan custom into Europe, in order to impress on people in a symbolic way that there is no future life and that we perish utterly like cattle. The modern movement in favor of cremation was introduced by men who professed atheism, and unbelief in immortality; and who hoped by cremation to foster in a symbolic way their doctrine that all is over at death. The idea was revived by the atheistic elements in the French Revolution, and was supported by the godless Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ on the continent.

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    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Cremation
    « Reply #8 on: September 26, 2013, 10:21:53 PM »
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  • Quote from: Timothy
    Quote from: Frances
    :heretic:
    Cremation is wrong except in cases where it is the result of an accident or by the state to halt or prevent epidemic outbreak of disease.


    As far as I am aware, the Church has never taught that cremation, in it of itself, is wrong.  Rather, the Church forbade it because it was used by pagans and heretics to deny and mock Catholic teaching.


    Timothy, there are few actions that are intrinsically wrong.  Given an extraordinary circuмstance, many actions that are normally sinful may be allowed.  Nevertheless, the Church has made it very clear just how wrong cremation is, except in instances like Frances mentioned.  The 1917 Code of Canon Law (1203) not only prohibits cremation, but also declared that it is illicit to comply with someone's wish for cremation, and that even if their wish is in a legal contract or will, it is still to be disregarded.  Even further, those who make known their wish to be cremated, if they do not rescind the wish before their death, are to be REFUSED ecclesiastical burial (Canon 1240).

    We can't really hang our hat on 'cremation's not intrinsically wrong' for this topic.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline poche

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    Cremation
    « Reply #9 on: September 26, 2013, 10:38:28 PM »
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  • What about situations where people cannot financially afford a regular burial?

    Offline Timothy

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    Cremation
    « Reply #10 on: September 27, 2013, 06:13:44 AM »
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  • Quote from: Mithrandylan
    Quote from: Timothy
    Quote from: Frances
    :heretic:
    Cremation is wrong except in cases where it is the result of an accident or by the state to halt or prevent epidemic outbreak of disease.


    As far as I am aware, the Church has never taught that cremation, in it of itself, is wrong.  Rather, the Church forbade it because it was used by pagans and heretics to deny and mock Catholic teaching.


    Timothy, there are few actions that are intrinsically wrong.  Given an extraordinary circuмstance, many actions that are normally sinful may be allowed.  Nevertheless, the Church has made it very clear just how wrong cremation is, except in instances like Frances mentioned.  The 1917 Code of Canon Law (1203) not only prohibits cremation, but also declared that it is illicit to comply with someone's wish for cremation, and that even if their wish is in a legal contract or will, it is still to be disregarded.  Even further, those who make known their wish to be cremated, if they do not rescind the wish before their death, are to be REFUSED ecclesiastical burial (Canon 1240).

    We can't really hang our hat on 'cremation's not intrinsically wrong' for this topic.


    I agree, if the Church forbids it, the Church forbids it.  I just wanted to clear up what may have been an ambiguity about its inherent "badness."


    Offline moneil

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    Cremation
    « Reply #11 on: September 27, 2013, 01:48:55 PM »
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  • This is my first (probable last or rare) post here, though I’ve been a long time lurker.  I work in agriculture but I’m seriously considering getting my funeral director’s license as a retirement career and I sometimes help out at a local funeral home when they get busy.  With that background I wanted to share some information that may be useful.

    Funerals can be expensive.  The National Funeral Director’s Association states that the average cost of a traditional funeral in the U.S. in 2012 was $7,045, which included a $2,395 casket.  Looking at their survey format one would likely need to add $100 - $200 for the evening Vigil / Rosary service for a Catholic funeral. null  I don’t have an authoritative source for average cemetery costs but based on local experience the plot will be $800 - $2,000; opening and closing fees range from $400 to over $800, a flat granite marker begins at around $550.  A grave liner is typically required by the cemetery (so that the ground doesn’t sink as the casket and remains naturally decompose).  These begin at around $400 for a basic concrete liner to over $2,000 for a sealed vault, with several options in between.  Mausoleum crypts are more expensive to purchase but one saves on the expense of a marker and vault, and interment fees are usually much lower.  Most cemeteries will justifiably charge (often a requirement of state regulation) an endowment fee, which provides a fund to pay for continuous care of the property when it is full and no longer receiving income from burial services.  This is typically 10% of the current cost of the plot, crypt, or niche but can vary by location and state.  Also, in my experience, municipal or otherwise public cemeteries are often less expensive than “private”, “corporate”, “non profit ‘community owned’” and even Catholic cemeteries.  FYI my personal arrangements are at Holy Cross Cemetery which is owned and operated by the Diocese of Spokane, WA, where four generations of my family are interred.

    Other costs that may be applicable, depending on one’s location, are sales tax and recording fees for the death certificate, burial permit, etc.  Most newspapers charge by the column inch for the obituary (one service a good funeral home provides is to assist the family in editing an obituary so that all desired information is included in the most concise manner).  An honorarium or stipend is given to the priest who says the Mass and performs the committal service.  One would be given to the priest, deacon, or religious who leads the Rosary (which is often now led by a family member, at least locally).  There are stipends for the organist, choir, or cantor, as well as the alter servers.  Typically there is a lunch or reception after the committal, which provides a repast for the grieving family and those who have traveled some distance, as well as an opportunity to visit and share stories.  Often the parish Altar Society provides this as part of their apostolate, but a donation from families who are able is greatly appreciated.  

    My point is that a traditional funeral, which traditional Catholics would want, can be very expensive, but these costs can be moderated with some judicious planning, and most families would find it prudent to set aside funds in some manner.

    Shop around a head of time.  Most people don’t want to think about death or shop for it, but doing so can save you LOTS of money.  There can be a WIDE range in pricing between local mortuaries and cemeteries and they are more than willing to visit with you before the time of need.  Federal Trade Commission regulations require funeral homes to provide anyone who asks in person with their General Price List (GPL), which itemizes their fees for services and general merchandise.  They are not required to mail or fax it without charging the cost of the transmission, but many mortuaries now have their GPL and casket offerings on their web site.  Ask for their casket and vault price list also.  They probable will also include their “complete service packages”, which are often discounted from the itemized GPL pricing.  These sometimes offer good value provided that they don’t include too many “extras” you don’t want or need.  Take these lists home and study them.  Ask friends, relatives, and your priest for their experience with local funeral homes and cemeteries.  One consideration some might add if there isn’t a traditional chapel where they live is the suitability of mortuary’s chapel for a Requiem Mass if they need to have a visiting priest come.

    As for caskets, usually a suitable basic 20 gage metal (in a variety of colors) would be available in the $900 - $1200 range.  Cloth covered caskets with a pine or redwood, particle board, or fiberboard (i.e. cardboard) base may also be offered for less.  Some funeral homes offer a good range across the price spectrum, some don’t.  Some allow cremation caskets (typically less expensive) to be purchased for ground burial, some don’t.  Don’t be afraid to be assertive and ask if they can show you other options from the catalog if you would like to see more options.  Most mortuaries display a casket offering of 12 – 20 units (what they can display in their space, and often showing too many more is over whelming for families), but they have access to many more from their supplier, so don’t be afraid to ask for more choices if you wish, and be suspicious if they are unwilling.

    Once you have determined the most suitable provider for funeral service and burial, and have added up what the expense will be (including the other expenses I referenced in paragraph four), it is time to see that sufficient funds might be available for those expenses.  Cemetery property can typically be purchased ahead of time by monthly payments interest free, within a given time span.  Some cemeteries may discount ancillary items (internment fees, marker, grave liner or vault) if purchased at the same time and included in the monthly payment.  Some mortuaries will “freeze” certain costs (service fees, casket prices) if payment is arranged in advance (i.e., one will be charged what things cost now, not what they may rise to at time of need).  Life insurance is typically the method used, though some offer a trust account (often through a State’s funeral directors association).  If one already has a whole life insurance policy (which I have through the Knights of Columbus) that may cover things also, but not provide the “price freeze protection”; one will be charged what things cost at time of need.  There is a $250.00 Social Security death benefit that everyone is entitled to (not much, but every little bit helps).  Veterans of military service are entitled to a flag, a free military grave marker (some funeral homes or cemeteries won’t mention this as they don’t want to loose “the sale”; you may have to ask), and burial in a National Cemetery (space and internment fees are covered; family has to arrange transportation cost of the cemetery isn’t local).

    I hope some of this information may be helpful to some.  Please feel free to ask any questions I may be able to answer or try to point you to an informative source for an answer.  As I mentioned at the beginning, I won’t be posting here but I do look in on this forum often.

    Offline moneil

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    Cremation
    « Reply #12 on: September 27, 2013, 01:50:36 PM »
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  • Quote from: moneil
    This is my first (probable last or rare) post here, though I’ve been a long time lurker.  I work in agriculture but I’m seriously considering getting my funeral director’s license as a retirement career and I sometimes help out at a local funeral home when they get busy.  With that background I wanted to share some information that may be useful.

    Funerals can be expensive.  The National Funeral Director’s Association states that the average cost of a traditional funeral in the U.S. in 2012 was $7,045, which included a $2,395 casket.  Looking at their survey format one would likely need to add $100 - $200 for the evening Vigil / Rosary service for a Catholic funeral. http://nfda.org/about-funeral-service-/trends-and-statistics.html#fcosts

    I don’t have an authoritative source for average cemetery costs but based on local experience the plot will be $800 - $2,000; opening and closing fees range from $400 to over $800, a flat granite marker begins at around $550.  A grave liner is typically required by the cemetery (so that the ground doesn’t sink as the casket and remains naturally decompose).  These begin at around $400 for a basic concrete liner to over $2,000 for a sealed vault, with several options in between.  Mausoleum crypts are more expensive to purchase but one saves on the expense of a marker and vault, and interment fees are usually much lower.  Most cemeteries will justifiably charge (often a requirement of state regulation) an endowment fee, which provides a fund to pay for continuous care of the property when it is full and no longer receiving income from burial services.  This is typically 10% of the current cost of the plot, crypt, or niche but can vary by location and state.  Also, in my experience, municipal or otherwise public cemeteries are often less expensive than “private”, “corporate”, “non profit ‘community owned’” and even Catholic cemeteries.  FYI my personal arrangements are at Holy Cross Cemetery which is owned and operated by the Diocese of Spokane, WA, where four generations of my family are interred.

    Other costs that may be applicable, depending on one’s location, are sales tax and recording fees for the death certificate, burial permit, etc.  Most newspapers charge by the column inch for the obituary (one service a good funeral home provides is to assist the family in editing an obituary so that all desired information is included in the most concise manner).  An honorarium or stipend is given to the priest who says the Mass and performs the committal service.  One would be given to the priest, deacon, or religious who leads the Rosary (which is often now led by a family member, at least locally).  There are stipends for the organist, choir, or cantor, as well as the alter servers.  Typically there is a lunch or reception after the committal, which provides a repast for the grieving family and those who have traveled some distance, as well as an opportunity to visit and share stories.  Often the parish Altar Society provides this as part of their apostolate, but a donation from families who are able is greatly appreciated.  

    My point is that a traditional funeral, which traditional Catholics would want, can be very expensive, but these costs can be moderated with some judicious planning, and most families would find it prudent to set aside funds in some manner.

    Shop around a head of time.  Most people don’t want to think about death or shop for it, but doing so can save you LOTS of money.  There can be a WIDE range in pricing between local mortuaries and cemeteries and they are more than willing to visit with you before the time of need.  Federal Trade Commission regulations require funeral homes to provide anyone who asks in person with their General Price List (GPL), which itemizes their fees for services and general merchandise.  They are not required to mail or fax it without charging the cost of the transmission, but many mortuaries now have their GPL and casket offerings on their web site.  Ask for their casket and vault price list also.  They probable will also include their “complete service packages”, which are often discounted from the itemized GPL pricing.  These sometimes offer good value provided that they don’t include too many “extras” you don’t want or need.  Take these lists home and study them.  Ask friends, relatives, and your priest for their experience with local funeral homes and cemeteries.  One consideration some might add if there isn’t a traditional chapel where they live is the suitability of mortuary’s chapel for a Requiem Mass if they need to have a visiting priest come.

    As for caskets, usually a suitable basic 20 gage metal (in a variety of colors) would be available in the $900 - $1200 range.  Cloth covered caskets with a pine or redwood, particle board, or fiberboard (i.e. cardboard) base may also be offered for less.  Some funeral homes offer a good range across the price spectrum, some don’t.  Some allow cremation caskets (typically less expensive) to be purchased for ground burial, some don’t.  Don’t be afraid to be assertive and ask if they can show you other options from the catalog if you would like to see more options.  Most mortuaries display a casket offering of 12 – 20 units (what they can display in their space, and often showing too many more is over whelming for families), but they have access to many more from their supplier, so don’t be afraid to ask for more choices if you wish, and be suspicious if they are unwilling.

    Once you have determined the most suitable provider for funeral service and burial, and have added up what the expense will be (including the other expenses I referenced in paragraph four), it is time to see that sufficient funds might be available for those expenses.  Cemetery property can typically be purchased ahead of time by monthly payments interest free, within a given time span.  Some cemeteries may discount ancillary items (internment fees, marker, grave liner or vault) if purchased at the same time and included in the monthly payment.  Some mortuaries will “freeze” certain costs (service fees, casket prices) if payment is arranged in advance (i.e., one will be charged what things cost now, not what they may rise to at time of need).  Life insurance is typically the method used, though some offer a trust account (often through a State’s funeral directors association).  If one already has a whole life insurance policy (which I have through the Knights of Columbus) that may cover things also, but not provide the “price freeze protection”; one will be charged what things cost at time of need.  There is a $250.00 Social Security death benefit that everyone is entitled to (not much, but every little bit helps).  Veterans of military service are entitled to a flag, a free military grave marker (some funeral homes or cemeteries won’t mention this as they don’t want to loose “the sale”; you may have to ask), and burial in a National Cemetery (space and internment fees are covered; family has to arrange transportation cost of the cemetery isn’t local).

    I hope some of this information may be helpful to some.  Please feel free to ask any questions I may be able to answer or try to point you to an informative source for an answer.  As I mentioned at the beginning, I won’t be posting here but I do look in on this forum often.

    Offline Nadir

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    « Reply #13 on: September 27, 2013, 04:59:07 PM »
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  • Funerals, just like death and a series of other occasions, have become so commercialised as to be ridiculous.

    I have a friend whose husband died. He was brought back from the city before he died and he died in the town where his family lived. The family took full responsibilty for his burial, including building and  decorating the casket, carrying his body in their own vehicle to the church for the Requium Mass and from the church to the cemetery.

    They would have liked to dig the hole but the ground of the cemetery was quite rocky and they decided to hire the equipment to dig.

    I did not attend as I did not meet this family until after his death. She should me photos of him lying in state and of the funeral.

    Very unusual circuмstances in the western world, but nevertheless possible.

    I doubt very much if cremation would have been cheaper than the beautiful and respectful way they buried their husband and father. The children were in their teens and twenties at the time.
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    Offline moneil

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    « Reply #14 on: September 30, 2013, 11:12:28 PM »
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  • Quote from: Nadir
    Funerals, just like death and a series of other occasions, have become so commercialised as to be ridiculous.

    I have a friend whose husband died. He was brought back from the city before he died and he died in the town where his family lived. The family took full responsibilty for his burial, including building and  decorating the casket, carrying his body in their own vehicle to the church for the Requium Mass and from the church to the cemetery.

    They would have liked to dig the hole but the ground of the cemetery was quite rocky and they decided to hire the equipment to dig.

    I did not attend as I did not meet this family until after his death. She should me photos of him lying in state and of the funeral.

    Very unusual circuмstances in the western world, but nevertheless possible.

    I doubt very much if cremation would have been cheaper than the beautiful and respectful way they buried their husband and father. The children were in their teens and twenties at the time.


    That is a wonderful story Nadir, and more power to those folks you spoke of, and those are are willing to do the same.  Still, most today wouldn't want to, any more than they want to have a family milk cow and curn their own butter, make their own ice cream; or have hens for eggs, or slop their own hog, or have a big garden and can their winter food.  I grew up on a farm doing all that and it was great, but some one of us always had to stay home from a trip 'cuz the critters had to be cared for, the garden tended, and it was all a lot of work, though joyful and fullfilling work just the same.

    Interestingly my paternal great grandmother in Chippewa Falls, WI did "undertaking" for families; i.e. bathing and dressing the deceased in their "Sunday Best" and laying them out on their bed for the visitation and wake, as even in the late 19th. ~ early 20th. centuries many familes didn't care to handle that task on their own.

    My principal point I was hoping to make was that for those who aren't really inclined to do their own "undertaking" for a deceased relative, calling upon a professional mortician could be expensive, but the cost can be moderated with some careful shopping and planning ahead of time, and I believe it would be prudent for most families to do this.  For those who are inclined to care for their own dead this book has been the long time resource manual: