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Author Topic: Creationist stakes 10,000 on contest between Bible and evolution  (Read 1083 times)

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Offline s2srea

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  • Creationist stakes $10,000 on contest between Bible and evolution

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/mar/25/creationist-trial-bible-genesis-evolution
    Creator of Literal Genesis Trial believes people who argue in favor of evolution are at a scientific disadvantage


    A California creationist is offering a $10,000 challenge to anyone who can prove in front of a judge that science contradicts the literal interpretation of the book of Genesis.

    Dr Joseph Mastropaolo, who says he has set up the contest, the Literal Genesis Trial, in the hope of improving the quality of arguments between creationists and evolutionists, has pledged to put $10,000 of his own money into an escrow account before the debate. His competitor would be expected to do the same. The winner would take the $20,000 balance.

    The argument would not be made in a formal court, but under an alternative dispute resolution model known as a minitrial. Mastropaolo said he would present the argument in favor of a literal interpretation of the creation story once he had found a willing scientist to argue that a non-literal interpretation of Genesis is more scientific.

    "They [evolutionists] are not stupid people, they are bright, but they are bright enough to know there is no scientific evidence they can give in a minitrial," Mastropaolo said.

    A minitrial differs from a regular trial because it does not need to be held in a courthouse and does not require the presence of traditional court figures. Mastropaolo plans to have a bailiff and court reporter in attendance, along with the judge. Contest rules state that evidence must be scientific, which means it is "objective, valid, reliable and calibrated".

    Mastropaolo believes that evolution cannot be proved scientifically. "It turns out that there is nothing in the universe [that] is evolving, everything is devolving, everything is going in the opposite direction," he said.

    Mastropaolo started making public arguments in favor of creationism about 13 years ago, after reading an article about evolution in the newspaper. He has a PhD in kinesiology and taught biomechanics and physiology at a California university for more than 25 years. He is now a contributing writer at the Creation Science Hall of Fame, which is collaborating with him for the minitrial. The Creation Science Hall of Fame is a website, launched in February 2012, that honors those who have made contributions to creation science.

    A majority of scientists disavow creationism, but a June 2012 Gallup poll showed that 46% of Americans believed in a literal interpretation of the biblical version of creation. Legislation to allow students to be taught religious versions of the creation of life is currently being considered in four states.

    The Literal Genesis Trial contest would be held in a courthouse in Santa Ana, California and Mastropaolo has said he will create a list of potential superior court judges to decide the case. The participants would have to agree on a judge. Mastropaolo said that he hopes the trials can improve future debates between evolutionists and creationists by addressing the issue in a legal and scientific way.

    "The evolutionists thereafter could read that transcript and make their case a bit stronger on the next one they contend against and we can do the same," Mastropaolo said. "We can read the transcript and not have have to go through the same process over and over and over again without any let up, without any resolution."


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Creationist stakes 10,000 on contest between Bible and evolution
    « Reply #1 on: April 02, 2013, 04:09:13 AM »
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  • This is great news!  I hope Dr. Mastropaolo has a lot of support.  

    I knew a man who was a teacher at a high school, where he spent
    one day in class explaining how the Second Law of Thermodynamics
    contradicts all the essential doctrines of evolution. The second
    law is the principle that no cyclic process is possible in which
    heat is absorbed from a reservoir at a single temperature and
    converted completely into mechanical work.  One or more of the
    students in his class complained that he was taking class time
    to disprove evolution, and he was fired from his job on that basis.

    Evolution, by the way, is not really a 'theory' but merely an
    hypothesis.  As the article above states, there is no scientific
    evidence for evolution, therefore it cannot be a theory, as all
    scientific theories have to be supported by scientific evidence.  Any
    thesis that is not supported by evidence is merely an hypothesis.  

    But how often do you hear the phrase, "the hypothesis of evolution?"

    Take another look at the article and see:  the word "theory" does
    not occur, and therefore the phrase "theory of evolution" is absent.
    I expect that Dr. Mastropaolo will find a way to make the use
    of this phrase impossible in his trial, that is, unless his opponent
    is willing to lose his case by using the phrase.

    To be more specific, my friend employed the Second Law of
    Thermodynamics in regards to Entropy, which says:  In any cyclic
    process the entropy will either increase or remain the same.  Also,
    Since entropy gives information about the evolution of an isolated
    system with time, it is said to give us the direction of "time's arrow".
    If snapshots of a system at two different times shows one state
    which is more disordered, then it could be implied that this state
    came later in time. For an isolated system, the natural course of
    events takes the system to a more disordered (higher entropy)
    state.

    Entropy is a measure of the amount of energy which is unavailable
    to do work.  And, it is also a measure of the disorder of a system.
    Since entropy necessarily increases as time passes in a closed
    system, such as a living cell into which no new genetic material can
    be introduced under natural conditions, any change in the order of
    the system will always be in the direction of DISorder.  To find a
    point in time when the state of ORDER is greater, you will have
    to look for an EARLIER point in time, and not a later one.  And
    since the hypothesis of biological evolution requires that order
    increases as time passes, it is in conflict with the second law of
    thermodynamics.  

    Evolutionists should not be offended that their hypothesis is shown
    to be a failure, because this is a very natural thing to happen.  
    It is part of nature that evolution is shown to be false.  So this is
    an opportunity to be pleased that you can be one with nature
    by abandoning your erstwhile adherence to a false hypothesis
    which is now shown to be what it is:  false.  


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    Offline JohnGrey

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    Creationist stakes 10,000 on contest between Bible and evolution
    « Reply #2 on: April 02, 2013, 11:10:49 AM »
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  • Quote from: Neil Obstat



    This is great news!  I hope Dr. Mastropaolo has a lot of support.  

    I knew a man who was a teacher at a high school, where he spent
    one day in class explaining how the Second Law of Thermodynamics
    contradicts all the essential doctrines of evolution. The second
    law is the principle that no cyclic process is possible in which
    heat is absorbed from a reservoir at a single temperature and
    converted completely into mechanical work.  One or more of the
    students in his class complained that he was taking class time
    to disprove evolution, and he was fired from his job on that basis.

    Evolution, by the way, is not really a 'theory' but merely an
    hypothesis.  As the article above states, there is no scientific
    evidence for evolution, therefore it cannot be a theory, as all
    scientific theories have to be supported by scientific evidence.  Any
    thesis that is not supported by evidence is merely an hypothesis.  

    But how often do you hear the phrase, "the hypothesis of evolution?"

    Take another look at the article and see:  the word "theory" does
    not occur, and therefore the phrase "theory of evolution" is absent.
    I expect that Dr. Mastropaolo will find a way to make the use
    of this phrase impossible in his trial, that is, unless his opponent
    is willing to lose his case by using the phrase.

    To be more specific, my friend employed the Second Law of
    Thermodynamics in regards to Entropy, which says:  In any cyclic
    process the entropy will either increase or remain the same.  Also,
    Since entropy gives information about the evolution of an isolated
    system with time, it is said to give us the direction of "time's arrow".
    If snapshots of a system at two different times shows one state
    which is more disordered, then it could be implied that this state
    came later in time. For an isolated system, the natural course of
    events takes the system to a more disordered (higher entropy)
    state.

    Entropy is a measure of the amount of energy which is unavailable
    to do work.  And, it is also a measure of the disorder of a system.
    Since entropy necessarily increases as time passes in a closed
    system, such as a living cell into which no new genetic material can
    be introduced under natural conditions, any change in the order of
    the system will always be in the direction of DISorder.  To find a
    point in time when the state of ORDER is greater, you will have
    to look for an EARLIER point in time, and not a later one.  And
    since the hypothesis of biological evolution requires that order
    increases as time passes, it is in conflict with the second law of
    thermodynamics.  

    Evolutionists should not be offended that their hypothesis is shown
    to be a failure, because this is a very natural thing to happen.  
    It is part of nature that evolution is shown to be false.  So this is
    an opportunity to be pleased that you can be one with nature
    by abandoning your erstwhile adherence to a false hypothesis
    which is now shown to be what it is:  false.  




    No.  A thousand times no, please stop with the thermodynamics canard.  No biological system is closed, whether talking about an organism or a species, because all living organisms must metabolize.  In the case of humans, that is consumption of food and respiration.  The entry of energy into a biological system, applied through the mechanisms of regeneration (cell respiration and division, etc.) is the means by which entropy is staved off.  The proof?  Don't feed your pet; see how long they remain extropic.

    The problem with applying entropy as an argument against evolution is that it presumes that evolution is a process which always orders or arranges, and that is always advantageous.  This is not true.  Mutations can certainly be disadvantageous, either instantly as in the case of impairment, or by changes in environment making adaptations no longer advantageous.

    I have no problem with people arguing against evolution.  Just don't do it dishonestly.

    Offline Renzo

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    Creationist stakes 10,000 on contest between Bible and evolution
    « Reply #3 on: April 02, 2013, 11:15:26 AM »
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  • I wasn't aware of any mutations that were advantageous.  
    We are true israel and israel is in bondage.  

    Offline s2srea

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    Creationist stakes 10,000 on contest between Bible and evolution
    « Reply #4 on: April 02, 2013, 12:49:43 PM »
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  • Quote from: JohnGrey
    No.  A thousand times no, please stop with the thermodynamics canard.  No biological system is closed, whether talking about an organism or a species, because all living organisms must metabolize.  In the case of humans, that is consumption of food and respiration.  The entry of energy into a biological system, applied through the mechanisms of regeneration (cell respiration and division, etc.) is the means by which entropy is staved off.  The proof?  Don't feed your pet; see how long they remain extropic.

    The problem with applying entropy as an argument against evolution is that it presumes that evolution is a process which always orders or arranges, and that is always advantageous.  This is not true.  Mutations can certainly be disadvantageous, either instantly as in the case of impairment, or by changes in environment making adaptations no longer advantageous.

    I have no problem with people arguing against evolution.  Just don't do it dishonestly.


    JG-

    I'm assuming this isn't easily explained in layman's terms, eh? :cowboy:


    Offline Jehanne

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    Creationist stakes 10,000 on contest between Bible and evolution
    « Reply #5 on: April 03, 2013, 03:56:51 PM »
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  • Offline Neil Obstat

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    Creationist stakes 10,000 on contest between Bible and evolution
    « Reply #6 on: April 19, 2013, 12:53:10 PM »
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  • Quote from: Jehanne


    I broke the link on purpose.  I can't read the writing on it.

     The website i.imgur.com/Dub8k allows you to download a high-resolution image.

    So I'm uploading it here to see if it's any more legible.



    Now that I can see what's going on here, it presumes that evolution is true,
    and based on that it says you are a "miracle."  



    Pretty stupid, I'd say.  The (so-called) "miracle" would be someone thinking they
    can turn the BIG LIE of evolution into a means of believing in miracles!!!!!!



    And that is not a miracle, but a fantasy.




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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Creationist stakes 10,000 on contest between Bible and evolution
    « Reply #7 on: April 19, 2013, 01:50:36 PM »
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  • At the bottom of the page it defines MIRACLE as follows:

    "A miracle is an event so unlikely as to be almost impossible."  

    What kind of idiot does it take to come up with this stuff?  




    "By that definition we have just shown that you are a miracle."

    In other words, since you are "almost impossible" you should feel good
    about yourself, apparently.

    I was working on my car one day and a very special bolt slipped out of my
    hand and fell down into the engine compartment, settling in an obscure and
    inaccessible place, where retrieving it was almost impossible.  It took me
    another day to get that lousy bolt out of that stupid place.  Did I work a
    miracle?  





    "*Now go forth and feel and act like the miracle that you are.*"


    Somehow, I'm not moved.  I wonder if anyone else was?




    Source:
    http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/abinαzιr/2011/06/15/what-are-chances-you-would-be-born/


    There is a comment page at the source article.  Here is one that very well
    exemplifies my reaction:



    Chas

    December 14, 2012 @ 9:32 am

    If you were to spend a hard earned dollar on a lottery ticket and wake up the next morning to discover that you and you alone had chosen the winning numbers that entitled you to millions of dollars, a lifetime of luxury, free of worry, stress, hunger, or any discomfort for yourself what would you do? Argue with someone over what was the true mathematical odds of you being the winner, or would you choose not to waste a precious moment of your new life in useless disagreement over the odds that it had occurred? There COULD be an inconceivable number of other human beings here in your place but they are not here and never ever will be here while you are. The moment you took your first breath of life you became one of those most improbable few to do so. You will have a finite number of days in the sun until you draw your final breath and return to the infinite nothingness. The accuracy of the mathematical odds are intended solely to instill an appreciation for your great fortune to be here. Do not squander the precious moments you have been granted by debating what the real odds of it all may be. Do not squander the gift of life you have been given. The day will come sooner than you may think that you will depart from your fortunate companions and rejoin the multitudes of those who have never spent the briefest of moments in the sun and never, ever will.






    IOW - dogmatic materialism.  Might is right, survival of the fittest, greed and
    temporal pleasure -- basically, hedonism.  

    Don't get me wrong.  CHAD probably thinks he's doing a great work by
    posting his vast "wisdom" here for all to see:  
    Your destiny is to return to the
    nothingness from whence you came, and there, in your non-existence, you
    will henceforth 'join' with 'others' who do not exist, never have, and never will!
    When "your day comes," you are destined to depart your "fortunate companions"
    who get to stay alive on earth, and you will be forced into an everlasting torment
    of misery and regret that you only briefly escaped by being able to live in
    this wonderful, marvelous shangri-la otherwise known as earth for the briefest
    moment that you had as a winner of the lottery -- or NOT (as most of your
    erstwhile companions had not won any lottery.)


    And they wonder why there are senseless bombings and shootings and
    mass murder and war and disease and broken families and gangs and
    drug abuse and prostitution and pederasty ---- and a crisis in the SSPX!!??


    That, by Chad, is the natural consequence of any reasoning that begins
    with a belief in evolution
    .  The effect can be no greater than the cause.

    Our schools are indoctrinating young minds with the stupid nonsense of
    evolution, which is founded squarely on the insolence and mocking contempt
    of Galileo, and the result is several generations of useless idiots in regards to
    thinking, right reason and common sense.





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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Creationist stakes 10,000 on contest between Bible and evolution
    « Reply #8 on: April 19, 2013, 02:38:52 PM »
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  • Quote from: JohnGrey
    Quote from: Neil Obstat



    This is great news!  I hope Dr. Mastropaolo has a lot of support.  

    I knew a man who was a teacher at a high school, where he spent
    one day in class explaining how the Second Law of Thermodynamics
    contradicts all the essential doctrines of evolution. The second
    law is the principle that no cyclic process is possible in which
    heat is absorbed from a reservoir at a single temperature and
    converted completely into mechanical work.  One or more of the
    students in his class complained that he was taking class time
    to disprove evolution, and he was fired from his job on that basis.

    Evolution, by the way, is not really a 'theory' but merely an
    hypothesis.  As the article above states, there is no scientific
    evidence for evolution, therefore it cannot be a theory, as all
    scientific theories have to be supported by scientific evidence.  Any
    thesis that is not supported by evidence is merely an hypothesis.  

    But how often do you hear the phrase, "the hypothesis of evolution?"

    Take another look at the article and see:  the word "theory" does
    not occur, and therefore the phrase "theory of evolution" is absent.
    I expect that Dr. Mastropaolo will find a way to make the use
    of this phrase impossible in his trial, that is, unless his opponent
    is willing to lose his case by using the phrase.

    To be more specific, my friend employed the Second Law of
    Thermodynamics in regards to Entropy, which says:  In any cyclic
    process the entropy will either increase or remain the same.  Also,
    Since entropy gives information about the evolution of an isolated
    system with time, it is said to give us the direction of "time's arrow".
    If snapshots of a system at two different times shows one state
    which is more disordered, then it could be implied that this state
    came later in time. For an isolated system, the natural course of
    events takes the system to a more disordered (higher entropy)
    state.

    Entropy is a measure of the amount of energy which is unavailable
    to do work.  And, it is also a measure of the disorder of a system.
    Since entropy necessarily increases as time passes in a closed
    system, such as a living cell into which no new genetic material can
    be introduced under natural conditions, any change in the order of
    the system will always be in the direction of DISorder.  To find a
    point in time when the state of ORDER is greater, you will have
    to look for an EARLIER point in time, and not a later one.  And
    since the hypothesis of biological evolution requires that order
    increases as time passes, it is in conflict with the second law of
    thermodynamics.  

    Evolutionists should not be offended that their hypothesis is shown
    to be a failure, because this is a very natural thing to happen.  
    It is part of nature that evolution is shown to be false.  So this is
    an opportunity to be pleased that you can be one with nature
    by abandoning your erstwhile adherence to a false hypothesis
    which is now shown to be what it is:  false.  




    No.  A thousand times no, please stop with the thermodynamics canard.  No biological system is closed, whether talking about an organism or a species, because all living organisms must metabolize.  In the case of humans, that is consumption of food and respiration.  The entry of energy into a biological system, applied through the mechanisms of regeneration (cell respiration and division, etc.) is the means by which entropy is staved off.  The proof?  Don't feed your pet; see how long they remain extropic.

    The problem with applying entropy as an argument against evolution is that it presumes that evolution is a process which always orders or arranges, and that is always advantageous.  This is not true.  Mutations can certainly be disadvantageous, either instantly as in the case of impairment, or by changes in environment making adaptations no longer advantageous.

    I have no problem with people arguing against evolution.  Just don't do it dishonestly.



    Your "problem with applying entropy" is false.  

    As an argument against evolution, it does not presume that evolution is a
    process which always orders or arranges.
     Not at all.  It presumes (as the
    evolutionists who teach it claim) that the false hypothesis of evolution is a
    process that  SOMETIMES orders or arranges, but USUALLY DOES NOT.  
    Even so, it's still false.

    Our argument against evolution does not presume that the false hypothesis of
    evolution claims to be "always advantageous."  On the contrary, all it presumes
    is that the false hypothesis of evolution claims what the evolutionists teach it
    does, that it is a process that is SOMETIMES advantageous, which it is not.  All
    mutations are neutral or disadvantageous, at all times.  End of story.  

    You say "mutations can certainly be disadvantageous..."  Well, sure, but that's
    only because ALL MUTATIONS ARE ALWAYS DISADVANTAGEOUS.  That's why
    they are mutations!  News flash: the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles are a fantasy.  
    They are not real.  I'm sorry if that makes you cry.

    I keep running into Catholics who are forced to interface with evolutionists
    at their work every day and they have pretty much caved in to the idea, like
    you have, JohnGrey, that mutations are capable of being advantageous.  

    The problem comes from the definition of "mutation."  Evolutionists are not
    stupid.  They might be ill-willed, but that's a different topic.  They know that
    by fuzzy logic, not unlike the Menzingen-denizens in the SSPX crisis, they
    can evoke a mistake in the minds of their would-be victims, making them
    think that variations within a species is the same thing as a "mutation."  

    Dogs are all canines. A wolf is a canine and a Poodle is a canine, but a
    Poodle is not a mutant wolf, and a wolf is not a mutant Poodle.  They are
    both variations of canine that are not unrelated to each other. Same goes
    for any other breed of dog, like Great Dane down to Chijuajua.  A German
    Shepherd might appear to be more wolf-like but that doesn't mean it's less
    of a "mutant" than a Cocker Spaniel.  Neither one is a mutant.  They are
    both variants.  

    Some doctors get all bent out of shape on this because they have taken
    sides with the evolution nonsense, perhaps without realizing it, in order to
    advance their careers.  You have to go along to get along, you know, like
    +Fellay and the Menzingen-denizens.  Slow boiled in the frog pot.


    In my example, my friend would not have been fired if it were merely a
    matter of him getting his facts mixed up.  He was touching on the Achille's
    Heel of evolution, and his school administrators knew that, so they found
    a way to fire him because he was too much of a threat to their sacred cow
    of the false hypothesis of evolution.






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