Author Topic: Copernicus  (Read 4639 times)

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Offline roscoe

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Copernicus
« on: May 17, 2017, 01:08:02 AM »
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  • Are there any CI members that have read DeRevolutionibus? :ready-to-eat:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Offline cassini

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    Re: Copernicus
    « Reply #1 on: May 17, 2017, 06:14:49 AM »
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  • Are there any CI members that have read DeRevolutionibus? :ready-to-eat:

    Yes, I have a copy of it in my files and I have read it very carefully. It has a most interesting Preface and Introduction followed by over four hundred pages of drawings, geometry, calculations, longitudes, latitudes and endless data that I would say nobody has ever used in history.

    Anything about it or Copernicus you want to know Roscoe?


    Offline roscoe

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    Re: Copernicus
    « Reply #2 on: May 17, 2017, 09:24:31 AM »
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  • ....' endless data that nobody has ever used in history'...

    Sorry but this is most inaccurate. Copernicus was a major player in the reorganisation of the Julian Calendar into the Gregorian. Clavio and Pope Gregory being the other 2 major figures.

    I would suggest consulting von Pastor's chapter on Reorganisation Of The Calendar. I believe it is in vol 23



    Unless I am mistaken, you are a dogmatic geo-centrist. Are you a flat earther as well? :confused:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Offline roscoe

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    Re: Copernicus
    « Reply #3 on: May 17, 2017, 09:58:24 AM »
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  • Do you think we should still be using the Julian Calendar? :cheers:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Offline cassini

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    Re: Copernicus
    « Reply #4 on: May 17, 2017, 12:15:34 PM »
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  • ....' endless data that nobody has ever used in history'...

    Sorry but this is most inaccurate. Copernicus was a major player in the reorganisation of the Julian Calendar into the Gregorian. Clavio and Pope Gregory being the other 2 major figures.

    I would suggest consulting von Pastor's chapter on Reorganisation Of The Calendar. I believe it is in vol 23

    Unless I am mistaken, you are a dogmatic geo-centrist. Are you a flat earther as well? :confused:

    "While Tyco de Brahe [geocentrist] was observing the Sky in Denmark, many famous astronomers gathered in Rome under the aegis of Pope Gregory XIII (1572-1585), worked with great success at correcting the errors that had crept in insensibly in the old calendar by the precession of Equinoxes and through anticipation of new Moons. These errors later would have completely overturned the order established by the Councils for the celebrations of movable feasts had the calendar not been revised according to modern observations of the movements of the Sun and of the Moon compared with the old times. It was Aloysius Lilius (1510-1576) who invented the new form of the Gregorian year but after his death Christoph Clavius (1537–1612) perfected it, gave its explanation, and its defence." --- J.D. Cassini: The Progress of Astronomy and its Use for Geography and in Navigation, Paris, 1693, 

    If one reads some accounts of history written by those who would like to portray Copernicus’s heliocentrism as the main influence in the updating of the Julian calendar, it seems it had little to do with its reform:
     

    ‘Among Catholics, Christoph Clavius was the leading astronomer in the sixteenth century. A Jesuit himself, he incorporated astronomy into the Jesuit curriculum and was the principal scholar behind the creation of the Gregorian calendar.’ --- Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy.


    The calendar was a refinement in 1582 to the Julian calendar amounting to a 0.002% correction in the length of the year.
    The Gregorian reform contained two parts: a reform of the Julian calendar as used prior to Pope Gregory XIII’s time and a reform of the lunar cycle used by the Catholic Church, with the Julian calendar, to calculate the date of Easter. The reform was a modification of a proposal made by Aloysius Lilius.
    His proposal included reducing the number of leap years in four centuries from 100 to 97, by making 3 out of 4 centurial years common instead of leap years. Lilius also produced an original and practical scheme for adjusting the epacts of the moon when calculating the annual date of Easter, solving a long-standing obstacle to calendar reform.
    The Gregorian reform modified the Julian calendar’s scheme of leap years as follows:
    Every year that is exactly divisible by four is a leap year, except for years that are exactly divisible by 100, but these centurial years are leap years if they are exactly divisible by 400. For example, the years 1700, 1800, and 1900 are not leap years, but the year 2000 is.
    In addition to the change in the mean length of the calendar year from 365.25 days (365 days 6 hours) to 365.2425 days (365 days 5 hours 49 minutes 12 seconds), a reduction of 10 minutes 48 seconds per year, the Gregorian calendar reform also dealt with the accumulated difference between these lengths. ---Aplaintruth.info.

    Try as I did I could not find Copernicus's book mentioned as assisting in the reform. Perhaps here is the reason why:

    Lest anyone think Copernicus advanced knowledge of the ‘magnitude of the orbs,’ he didn’t. Measuring the distance of the sun from the earth and other planets is near impossible without proper instrumentation that Copernicus did not have. Estimates based on earth-diameters were all the early astronomers could manage. Ptolemy estimated the sun to be 610 earth-diameters away. Copernicus ‘corrected’ this estimate to 571, which was even further from the actual distance than Ptolemy. The first astronomer to achieve the realistic magnitudes for the sun and planets was Domenico Cassini. He estimated the distance of the sun from the earth - now said to be approximately 11,650 earth-diameters – at 10,305 earth-diameters. 

    No, I am not a flat-earther. 


    Offline roscoe

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    Re: Copernicus
    « Reply #5 on: May 17, 2017, 12:47:59 PM »
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  • Reform of the calendar had been contemplated for some time by 1582. While Copernicus(d1543) was not the main force in the endeavor, his work does figure in the new calendar. BTW-- he was not a helio-centrist. He never reached any conclusion one way or the other. He was very careful as well he should have been as we now know that both E & S are in motion and there is no physical center of U. :cheers:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Offline cassini

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    Re: Copernicus
    « Reply #6 on: May 17, 2017, 01:47:17 PM »
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  • Reform of the calendar had been contemplated for some time by 1582. While Copernicus(d1543) was not the main force in the endeavor, his work does figure in the new calendar. BTW-- he was not a helio-centrist. He never reached any conclusion one way or the other. He was very careful as well he should have been as we now know that both E & S are in motion and there is no physical center of U. :cheers:

    Whatever you say Roscoe, but don't count me in with your 'we now know' cosmology.

    Offline roscoe

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    Re: Copernicus
    « Reply #7 on: May 17, 2017, 03:07:20 PM »
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  • I have noticed that dogmatic geo-centrists ascribe to Copernicus a belief in helio-centrism.

    This is not accurate as he only spoke hypothetically when referring to the latter as hitherto there was no actual evidence.  This is why his work was left unpublished until after his death. He knew there was something wrong with it.

    We should never the less give him credit for the truth in article one of his theory-- that E rev around S.

    Because articles 2( S is fixed) and  3( Sun is center of U)of Copernicanism turn out to be incorrect, does not negate article one. :ready-to-eat:

    Pls consult  von Pastor's chapters on Reformation of Calendar as well as Galileo & Roman INQ in vol 25. These can found at Wikipedia by searching Ludwig von Pastor.
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'


    Offline cassini

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    Re: Copernicus
    « Reply #8 on: May 17, 2017, 04:05:57 PM »
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  • I have noticed that dogmatic geo-centrists ascribe to Copernicus a belief in helio-centrism.

    This is not accurate as he only spoke hypothetically when referring to the latter as hitherto there was no actual evidence.  This is why his work was left unpublished until after his death. He knew there was something wrong with it.

    We should never the less give him credit for the truth in article one of his theory-- that E rev around S.

    Because articles 2( S is fixed) and  3( Sun is center of U)of Copernicanism turn out to be incorrect, does not negate article one. :ready-to-eat:

    Pls consult  von Pastor's chapters on Reformation of Calendar as well as Galileo & Roman INQ in vol 25. These can found at Wikipedia by searching Ludwig von Pastor.

    As a biblical geocentrist Roscoe, one sees history in its true light.
    Copernicus was a heliocentrist. Of course he couldn't prove it, His book couldn't prove it, but like Galileo who couldn't prove it, he too was a heliocentrist.

    How can E rev around S be true if it cannot be proven? Relativity prevails in science now. In other words science acknowledges that geocentrism could be true.

    What you believe in is your choice, no more.



        

    Offline roscoe

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    Re: Copernicus
    « Reply #9 on: May 17, 2017, 04:41:09 PM »
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  • It is true that Galileo could be described as a helio-centrist because he demands-- in 1616-- this be accepted as dogma with only scant evidence( discovery of the moons revolving around Jupiter). The word could is used because neither he or Copernicus ever uses the specific term as far as i can tell.

    I don't refer to Copernicus in this way because he spoke hypothetically and never publishes his book.

    Look at it this way Cassini-- while we disagree with the type of motion, we both agree that S IS in motion and that it is not the center of U.

    What you believe is your choice as well because there is no dogma that requires Catholics to believe in geo-centrism. :cheers:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Offline roscoe

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    Re: Copernicus
    « Reply #10 on: May 17, 2017, 09:18:17 PM »
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  • I don't see the PM function anymore. Do you believe that the planets rotate on an axis? 8)
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'


    Online Nadir

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    Re: Copernicus
    « Reply #11 on: May 17, 2017, 10:05:47 PM »
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  • I don't see the PM function anymore.  8)
    Click on the poster's name, and when that page opens, click on Action.

    Offline cassini

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    Re: Copernicus
    « Reply #12 on: May 18, 2017, 04:14:20 AM »
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  • It is true that Galileo could be described as a helio-centrist because he demands-- in 1616-- this be accepted as dogma with only scant evidence( discovery of the moons revolving around Jupiter). The word could is used because neither he or Copernicus ever uses the specific term as far as i can tell.

    I don't refer to Copernicus in this way because he spoke hypothetically and never publishes his book.

    Look at it this way Cassini-- while we disagree with the type of motion, we both agree that S IS in motion and that it is not the center of U.

    What you believe is your choice as well because there is no dogma that requires Catholics to believe in geo-centrism. :cheers:

    Copernicus’s heliocentrism in fact, first emerged in 1524 when he distributed an unsigned and untitled manuscript later named Commentariolus or ‘Little Commentary.’ These proposals were intended to see what reaction heliocentrism would have among philosophers of his time. The Commentary argued that a sun-centered planetary system, one of these being the earth, could better explain the mechanics of cosmic movements and indeed gravity, understood then as ‘heaviness.’ As it turned out, his thesis failed to make any impact or receive any serious response from astronomers and philosophers, leaving him disappointed and disheartened. This is why he never published de Rev.

    ‘In The Revolutions one of Copernicus’s deepest motivations for developing his sun-centred model was his belief that earlier interpreters of nature had produced a “translation” that was incoherent and aesthetically unappealing – one that did not do justice to the skill of the original Author Creator.’  --- Dennis Danielson: The First Copernican, p.53.

    Here then, for any who wish to see, is another who had fallen hook, line and sinker for the magic of Hermēs Trismegistus. This church-keeper was likely to be well aware that the Scriptures depict geocentrism, an interpretation held by all the Fathers and that the Council of Trent had forbidden contrary personal interpretations. Nevertheless, driven by the spreading influence of Hermēs he still introduced his prepared equilibrium into astronomy, philosophy, theology and metaphysics – heliocentrism. Here then, in De revolutionibus, the most famous book on the cosmos ever written, a book that was read by many throughout Europe, by those who shaped world history, astronomy and science, Hermēs himself is named as an inspiration. Copernicus places the central religious and mystical role of the sun as the Sermo Perfectus dictates, as an intermediary between the divine light and the world, indeed as a second god, placing it where that already occupied Holy Throne had stood firm. Hints to this effect can be found in any proper study of Copernicus’s life and work.
       
    ‘Copernicus’s published works gave unmistakable, if indirect, indications of his reasons for devoting himself to astronomy. Judging by these, his intellectual and religious interests were dominant. He valued his theory of planetary motion, not because it improved navigational procedures, but because it revealed the true harmony, symmetry, and design in the divine workshop. It was wonderful and overpowering evidence of God’s presence. Writing of his achievements, which was thirty years in the making, Copernicus could not restrain his gratification: “We find, therefore, under this orderly arrangement a wonderful symmetry in the universe, and a definite relation of harmony in the motion and magnitude of the orbs, of a kind not possible to obtain in any other way.”’ --- M. Kline: Mathematics and the search for Knowledge, p.70.


    Georg Joachim Rheticus (1514-1574) was a student and later mathematics professor at Martin Luther’s University of Wittenberg. An informing new book however by Professor Dennis Danielson reveals to us that were it not for Rheticus and others, Copernicus’s De revolutionibus most probably would never have seen the light of day. Accordingly, his relationship with Copernicus is vital to the story of the Copernican revolution.

    Rheticus became Copernicus's right-hand man, and used the Protestant printing press to bring out de revolutionibus.
    Danielson goes on to say this was Martin Luther’s best-known doctrine:

    ‘If someone equipped with the tools of reading could reinterpret the text of either the Bible or the Book of Nature – independent of intervening layers of authority – whole new possibilities of understanding could emerge in the natural sciences as well as in theology.’ --- D. Danielson: The First Copernican, p.21.

    And that is how the heliocentric heresy began the assault on Catholic biblical exegesis and hermeneutics, PROTESTANTISM.

    Finally there is an irreversible papal decree that states the Scriptures reveal geocentrism and the secret archives at the Vatican reveal this was acknowledged as dogma twice by the Holy Office in 1633 and 1820. This dogma has been ignored, especially by popes, to accommodate everyone's belief that science proven the earth rotates and orbits the sun. The history of this SCAM at a time when 'tradition' ruled is worse than anything that came out of Vatican Ii when the heliocentric modernists had taken over.

    Offline TKGS

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    Re: Copernicus
    « Reply #13 on: May 18, 2017, 05:37:31 AM »
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  • I don't see the PM function anymore.
    On the left side of the posts, under the misnamed "Gender" indicator is a symbol that looks like a cartoon dialogue bubble.  If you click it, you can send a PM to that forum member.

    Offline roscoe

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    Re: Copernicus
    « Reply #14 on: May 18, 2017, 11:43:52 AM »
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  • Quote Cassini-- 'This dogma has been ignored, especially by the popes...'

    You have just proved that the alleged 'dogma' is only in your mind.

    MO is that Catholics should recognise the authority of the popes b4 Cassini.. :baby:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

     

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