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Author Topic: Conviction of Cdl George Pell  (Read 5315 times)

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Offline 2Vermont

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Re: Conviction of Cdl George Pell
« Reply #30 on: March 04, 2019, 03:09:29 PM »
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  • Uh huh Jayne. I guess time will tell who is right here.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)


    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Conviction of Cdl George Pell
    « Reply #31 on: March 04, 2019, 03:22:54 PM »
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  • It's very likely that Pell is guilty of many other crimes which weren't part of this trial.  Usually, if you're a predator once, you're a predator 100s of times (if given the opportunity).  The 1,000s of guilty cases around the world of predator "clerics" shows that many were given ample opportunity and did dastardly things.

    I'm just commenting on the facts of the trial.  This SPECIFIC trial.  As much as the media hates the Church, if the case rests on the flimsy argument that abuse could happen in such a small timeframe, at such a non-private moment as right after mass, I find it hard to believe.  Again, I wasn't in the court, but the reporter was and she said these were the facts.  Assuming she's a liberal media person, (and the Guardian newspaper is super liberal), then if there were more damaging facts, she would have certainly reported them.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Conviction of Cdl George Pell
    « Reply #32 on: March 04, 2019, 03:26:25 PM »
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  • Uh huh Jayne. I guess time will tell who is right here.
    Not necessarily.  We may never find out the truth.

    But your main argument is that you don't think that a unanimous jury could be wrong.  I think your trust in juries in misplaced.
    Here in Canada, we experienced the situation of infamous abortionist Henry Morgentaler.  Back in 70s, when abortion was illegal here, he was brought to trial 3 times for breaking the law against abortion.  There is no question that he did so, but on 3 different occasions, three different juries found him not guilty.  Jury decisions are far from infallible.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Conviction of Cdl George Pell
    « Reply #33 on: March 04, 2019, 03:30:01 PM »
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  • Not necessarily.  We may never find out the truth.

    But your main argument is that you don't think that a unanimous jury could be wrong.  I think your trust in juries in misplaced.
    Here in Canada, we experienced the situation of infamous abortionist Henry Morgentaler.  Back in 70s, when abortion was illegal here, he was brought to trial 3 times for breaking the law against abortion.  There is no question that he did so, but on 3 different occasions, three different juries found him not guilty.  Jury decisions are far from infallible.
    No, my main argument is that what you think you know (and are basing your "logical assessment" on) is probably not the whole story. With that, I'm not interested in getting into a back and forth with you.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Conviction of Cdl George Pell
    « Reply #34 on: March 04, 2019, 03:36:49 PM »
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  • No, my main argument is that what you think you know (and are basing your "logical assessment" on) is probably not the whole story. 
    There may be more to the story, but, as I said, it is hard to imagine anything that could make these allegations plausible.  Plus, another jury already tried this case and presumably did hear the whole story.  They did not find him guilty.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Conviction of Cdl George Pell
    « Reply #35 on: March 04, 2019, 03:39:52 PM »
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  • Traditio will pounce on anything that might make the Novus Ordo (or SSPX or non-sedevacantists) look bad, and they can hardly be considered an objective source on this.

    For each Novus Ordo pervert who has rightly been convicted, there's probably one that has been railroaded.
    This.

    I stopped paying attention to this NO perv scandal a long time ago. I know personally of some good priests who were falsely accused, a few of them were made to simply disappear quietly. For some 40 years that I know of, they've been using this scandal to railroad priests who were NO, but sympathetic to tradition.

    Aside from legitimate perverts who actually are guilty of causing the scandal, being a NO priest while being sympathetic to tradition will often (not always) earn a NO priest the perv label, either that or they get accused of embezzlement, tried, convicted and locked away. Some may argue, "that's what they get for being NO and destroying the Church". Well, that may be understandable, but two wrongs have never made a right.

    Certainly there are legitimate NO pervs who rightfully get convicted, just as certain there are many innocent of that crime who are wrongfully convicted. With the millions of dollars in payouts involved, whoever doesn't accept this reality is a fool.

    And it's not like the pope and the rest of the clergy are ignorant to the fact that the seminaries have been churning out pervs since at least the 1950s. And if many were ignorant of it then, surly by the 70s, 80s, 90s and since, the popes clergy/hierarchy know it - and not one of them has done a thing about it, except embrace it - then defame whomever they decide is guilty and fork out millions upon millions of dollars to those claiming to be victims.

    Whether cardinal Pell really is guilty or not, I'd say at best, is a 50/50 chance.  


               
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Conviction of Cdl George Pell
    « Reply #36 on: March 04, 2019, 03:52:46 PM »
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  • It's very likely that Pell is guilty of many other crimes which weren't part of this trial.  
    It is possible that somehow the prosecutors at the second trial were able to convince the jury of this. In such circuмstances, a jury might find a person guilty even when the evidence does not support it.  But they should not have.  The jury was not supposed to decide whether Pell is a predator in general, but whether he was guilty of the specific crime that he was charged with.  If that is what happened it means the legal system is broken.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Conviction of Cdl George Pell
    « Reply #37 on: March 04, 2019, 03:54:19 PM »
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  • There may be more to the story, but, as I said, it is hard to imagine anything that could make these allegations plausible.  Plus, another jury already tried this case and presumably did hear the whole story.  They did not find him guilty.
    From my link above:

    It has been rumoured that the jurors in the mistrial were split 10-to-two in favour of Pell. Is this right?

    This is an unverified rumour with no credible source. There have been plenty of other rumours about the split in the mistrial, including that it was more even. The weight of the split makes no difference. The law requires a unanimous or 11-to-one verdict, and anything else results in a mistrial. The chief judge is not told of the split and he made it clear he did not want to know. Any juror who reveals the split breaks the law.

    The mistrial split is also irrelevant in the appeal court. In the retrial, both parties may learn from their mistakes, change their approach and refine their arguments. It would be unfair to then judge the verdict in a retrial against the verdict in the mistrial. In Pell’s retrial, witnesses were dropped by mutual agreement of both parties, and Richter added a power point presentation to his defence. One new witness was added. It was similar, but not the same, as the first.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Conviction of Cdl George Pell
    « Reply #38 on: March 04, 2019, 06:00:28 PM »
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  • My experience as a juror has shown me that most folks selected as a juror take the job seriously and impartially...as they should.  Given this jury deliberated for days, it sounds to me that they did the same.

    Added:  Also, from what I have read, under Victorian law, a 11-1 verdict would have convicted him too.  And yet, the jury came back unanimous.

    Maybe, but people are wrongly convicted all the time.  That's just a fact.  And there is a heavy prejudice against the Catholic Church out there.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Conviction of Cdl George Pell
    « Reply #39 on: March 04, 2019, 06:03:38 PM »
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  • It's very likely that Pell is guilty of many other crimes which weren't part of this trial.  Usually, if you're a predator once, you're a predator 100s of times (if given the opportunity).  The 1,000s of guilty cases around the world of predator "clerics" shows that many were given ample opportunity and did dastardly things.

    And, IMO, that too speaks in HIS favor.  Most pedophiles are serial offenders, and the fact that only one first-hand accusor could be found speaks volumes.

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Conviction of Cdl George Pell
    « Reply #40 on: March 04, 2019, 08:59:08 PM »
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  • Nadir, it seems that you are certain that this man is innocent.  I provided a link of an article that seemed to me to handle the situation in a balanced way.  In addition, the reporter answering the questions was also a reporter that was in attendance throughout the whole process and I don't think that was the case of any of the other reports provided in this thread up to that point.  

    Have you ever been a juror on a criminal jury trial (or any other kind of trial)?  I have.  An unanimous decision between 12 people is very difficult to attain.  The fact that this decision was unanimous holds a lot of weight in my book.  
    2Vermont, you are certainly entitled to your opinion about his guilt or innocence, and about what you see as the “balanced way” said writer presents the “facts”.
    .
    But you are right in that my firm opinion is (I am certain) that Cdl Pell is innocent, that the case for a guilty verdict is flimsy to say the least and, in the view of most Australians that I have heard comment, there has been a miscarriage of justice.
    .
    As for the reporter you quoted, I have never heard of her, and so I know nothing about her, and when I searched what came up is a few articles the majority being her writings on Cdl Pell’s trial.
    Her clever interview style of writing is a series of her learned OPINIONS in answer to her own questions she has posed to herself. Whether or not she sat through the whole shebang is largely irrelevant and there is no reason to believe that sitting through the whole process will render her honest.
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.


    Offline poche

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    Re: Conviction of Cdl George Pell
    « Reply #41 on: March 05, 2019, 12:28:08 AM »
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  • This was an unanimous verdict.  All of the members of the jury were in on this so-called miscarriage of justice?  That gives me pause.
    It wouldn't be the first time that all the members of a jury were in on miscarriages of justice. The jury acquitted the klan man who cold bloodedly murdered Fr Coyne.  

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Conviction of Cdl George Pell
    « Reply #42 on: March 05, 2019, 03:03:29 AM »
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  • Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Conviction of Cdl George Pell
    « Reply #43 on: March 05, 2019, 06:58:17 AM »
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  • 2Vermont, you are certainly entitled to your opinion about his guilt or innocence, and about what you see as the “balanced way” said writer presents the “facts”.
    .
    But you are right in that my firm opinion is (I am certain) that Cdl Pell is innocent, that the case for a guilty verdict is flimsy to say the least and, in the view of most Australians that I have heard comment, there has been a miscarriage of justice.
    .
    As for the reporter you quoted, I have never heard of her, and so I know nothing about her, and when I searched what came up is a few articles the majority being her writings on Cdl Pell’s trial.
    Her clever interview style of writing is a series of her learned OPINIONS in answer to her own questions she has posed to herself. Whether or not she sat through the whole shebang is largely irrelevant and there is no reason to believe that sitting through the whole process will render her honest.
    It is interesting that you are 100% certain he is innocent even though you don't have all of the information provided to the jury nor do you know what took place in the jury room for the many days of jury deliberation.  

    Regardless of what you think of the reporter I provided, so far most of the other reports I have seen posted on these kinds of forums calling for his innocence/offering the "facts" are from Novus Ordo organizations or personal friends.  Let's be honest here: they aren't exactly impartial.  
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: Conviction of Cdl George Pell
    « Reply #44 on: March 05, 2019, 11:14:15 AM »
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  • This whole sɛҳuąƖ abuse scandal that has gone on for so long, has clarified for me it's origins and intentions.
    The infiltration of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs and Vll corrupting the seminaries and Sacramental rites have always had one intention- to destroy the faith of the laity, the Priesthood,  and subsequently Jesus in the Most Blessed Sacrament so that the antichrist spirit  can reign without the any remnant of Christ to hinder it. This is the priority, the destruction of the Church- even before any radical political upheavals, wars , fake  news and cultural inversions (which of course are one and the same "movement" as the destroyers of the Church).
    ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity/ pederasty in the  NO Priesthood is rampant and sickeningly shameful, but the stage is now set to incriminate any priest at any time with any unsubstantiated accusation, and the target  of course is NOT to rid itself of homo/Marxists priests in the Consiliar Church, but to rid itself of conservative and faithful "priests" who resist the  prevailing "anti-doctrine"  and serve to muddy the waters for the revolution. They must be destroyed, and at the very least silenced and marginalized. They are targeted now.
    In Pennsylvania, it only took an accusation, not a conviction to make it into AG ((Shapiro's)) Hall of Shame. Out of 300 reported abusers, most of them were dead ( unable to defend themselves) and there was only ONE conviction of abuse in the entire named group of Priests- Yet it spawned a country/statewide witchhunt ( Yes it's not just Trump) and international infamy for the NO Priesthood. ( and truly, all Priests- even our own have to trudge through the cesspool of accusations and shame. The world, has the power and will paint ALL with the same brush- because they can). Of course we are targeted.
    As a person who has had some experience with jury and jury selection, I know how easy it is to stack a jury , especially in a high profile case that has huge implications and impact to morality and culture- our pro-life cases NEVER won in a jury trial. Was it because our side wasn't factual and honest? No because the juries were carefully indoctrinated with what the Judge would allow into evidence, and our lawyers were unable to truly to present our case with the Judge's restrictions. Most judges did not allow our lawyers to use the word "abortion" and the juries were instructed to ignore all of our pertinent facts. It all came down to whether we committed trespass -lol. They have complete control of the system when they need to use it. If anyone gets put in the position of Judge or prosecutor, rest assured they know the rules and abide by them, or they will be defamed and tossed-out as well.
    I consider myself a 'Resistance" member, and I have no love for the Consiliar counterfeit highjackers, but I do hate the railroading of an innocent man and know how easily it can happen and why.
    I put my money on Cardinal Pell entirely because I don't think he is ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ pederast, and was truly trying to expose the Vll banking/laundering system. To me he is a victim of Francis' lavender Cabal who projects their filth onto anyone who exposes or disagrees with them. The fix is in.