Author Topic: Catholic Social Justice Is Not Marxism (Read 3283 times)

Renzo · « **on:** March 10, 2013, 12:32:00 AM »

Some people think that catholic social justice is marxism in disguise. This does not appear to be true, because, for example, in the book, "My Catholic Faith," (an illustrated catechism that has been widely used in traditional circles and is still in print) section 113 is called, "Social Justice." Here are a few excerpts,

"The government should protect the right of private ownership. Citizens are most contented when they have some property to call their own, on which they can depend for the necessities of their families and for maintenance in their old age. Problems of peace and order increase with the increase of people who have no property of their own to think about. Something is wrong when a country's wealth is in the hands of a limited few; everyone should be owner of something, however little."

"The teachings of the church on social justice are based on the seventh and tenth commandments."

"2. A person has obligations towards his fellowmen; this fact is fundamental and immutable. If he fails to observe the obligations relating to the social-economic side of life, he sins against the seventh and tenth commandments."

"Men are created equal, all being made to God's image, all destined for immortality. But there are natural inequalities, arising from physical, mental, material causes. A person must not exploit the inequalities, taking advantage of those less fortunate."

From the moral point of view the purposes of economic life are the following:

2. the motive of profit must always give way to the motive of the moral law.

3. God's gifts should be distributed in an equitable manner.

4. Everyone should be provided with useful employment, in accordance with his abilities and needs, and with his dignity as a human being created by God.

Why Is Private Ownership A Right?- Private ownership is a right because every man has a right to life, and to all means necessary for the purposes of life.

Private ownership is a right because if every moment of a person's life were occupied in providing for his daily maintenance, he would have nothing to sustain him in cases of illness of misfortune. Besides, in such a case he would have no leisure in which to attend to the interests of his soul.

One is moreover bound to provide for those dependent on him, and this can only be done if he can keep property above what is absolutely needful."

5. ...Communism confiscates all private property for the State, and aims to provide for the wants of everybody out of public funds.

Besides being impracticable, the idea of Communism violates individual and family rights. The State is merely empowered to supervise and regulate the acquisition and disposal of property for the common good, with justice to everyone."

Traditional Guy 20 · « **Reply #1 on:** March 10, 2013, 07:39:09 AM »

Quite true. When I use the term social justice I am speaking of the social justice that comes from my religion, not the Marxian view of "social justice" which is flat-out socialism.

PerEvangelicaDicta · « **Reply #2 on:** March 10, 2013, 09:20:58 AM »

Renzo, your description sounds like Distributism. It's very difficult to convince most American Catholics that americanism is heresy. Then you are called a socialist, marxist, communist, with little understanding of the terms.

Traditional Guy 20 · « **Reply #3 on:** March 10, 2013, 09:31:00 AM »

Quote from: PerEvangelicaDicta

Renzo, your description sounds like Distributism. It's very difficult to convince most American Catholics that americanism is heresy. Then you are called a socialist, marxist, communist, with little understanding of the terms.

Also quite true. I've been called a socialist before on this website. However let me say this. The defintion of Marxism is one who supports class struggle and class conflict and a classless society, along with an international workers' movement. Anyone who does not support this is not a Communist, even if he despises the current economic system.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #4 on:** March 10, 2013, 09:36:04 AM »

Quote

The defintion of Marxism is one who supports class struggle and class conflict and a classless society, along with an international workers' movement.

That's not a very sound definition. Too restrictive, doesn't explain the matter enough.

Traditional Guy 20 · « **Reply #5 on:** March 10, 2013, 09:37:51 AM »

Quote from: Telesphorus

That's not a very sound definition. Too restrictive.

Well of course one would also reject private property, nationalism, patriotism, conservatism, capitalism, ethnocentrism, religion, etc. if one was a Marxist.

John Grace · « **Reply #6 on:** March 10, 2013, 10:03:33 AM »

It's an interesting topic. A mistake people often make is not to realise your average City of London plutocrat will tell you they believe in Social Justice. He might give from time to time to the local Oxfam shop or finance a goat in Africa. He will gladly donate to the local jumble sale etc etc. For these people though, those that spend their day dealing with stocks and shares it's all about profit. Their "truth" is "what is good for business is good for the country".

A Catholic sense of Social Justice is different. The Capitalist society is where Money is god, the disorder of the modern world. Who will really miss the sick, the poor, the old, the unborn child in their world? They are not economically viable in their world view.

There are many Catholics working in banking. In reality few tears will be shed for the usurers.Not all are banksters but how many are implementing social justice?

John Grace · « **Reply #7 on:** March 10, 2013, 10:11:02 AM »

Chuck Feeney has been financing universities and other projects in Ireland. He also funds the pro-abortion groups. No doubt the aborted child will make more money for them. Pharmaceutical companies and cosmetic manufacturers will find use for the 'waste' after an abortion.

It's ironic that the group "People before profit" is one of the main agitators for "abortion rights" in Ireland.

s2srea · « **Reply #8 on:** March 10, 2013, 10:24:43 AM »

This is a very good topic, and something I've been thinking about lately. Catholic social justice is clearly opposed to much of the republican (Both big and little "r") ideology spoken of in today's politics. However, it also is 'not' socialism. The problem is that the Church used to do much of what socialists believe the godless states ought to. Weak states, weak Church, weak people- this is what we're left with.

Gold Peak · « **Reply #9 on:** March 10, 2013, 12:45:16 PM »

True Catholic social justice occurs when there is not a separation between Church and State.
It is in establishing the Kingship of Christ here on our earth.

Sadly now the way the Church is and now the enemy has established his leaders over every country through Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ, our poor world is quite abandoned for true social justice.

All we can do is to pray much and if we have the resources, do what we can to establish it in a 'little' way so to speak.

Traditional Guy 20 · « **Reply #10 on:** March 10, 2013, 12:58:46 PM »

When speaking of Catholic social justice it is always good to start with "Rerum Novarum."

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13rerum.htm

Renzo · « **Reply #11 on:** March 10, 2013, 01:10:46 PM »

Quote from: s2srea

This is a very good topic, and something I've been thinking about lately. Catholic social justice is clearly opposed to much of the republican (Both big and little "r") ideology spoken of in today's politics. However, it also is 'not' socialism. The problem is that the Church used to do much of what socialists believe the godless states ought to. Weak states, weak Church, weak people- this is what we're left with.

I agree. I think the theft, sabotage and decline of church power (lands, money, military, ect) has left a void that should be filled by the church, not state (socialism) or private enterprise (capitalism). Of course, that would require a restoration of church power (sanity).

It is also my impression that communism (international socialism) and nαzιsm (national socialism) both promoted, to one degree or another socialism. Of course, i think internationalism is an attempt to fill another void left by a lack of belief in the catholic church and hence, in the universality of the catholic church, with a pathetic attempt to replace that universalism, with what i would term, a "material-equality" of all men (not taught by the church), rather than with what i would term a "spiritual-equality" of all men (taught by the church). Naturally, once one rejects the faith, all that's left to debate is the material equality/inequality of all men and, not surprisingly, it always seems to somehow be missing the point.

jester · « **Reply #12 on:** March 10, 2013, 03:39:23 PM »

there is no such thing as "social justice".

who'll be the judges what's just?

The Government?

No, thanks.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #13 on:** March 10, 2013, 03:45:33 PM »

Quote from: jester

there is no such thing as "social justice".

Quote from: Pope Leo XIII

To defraud any one of wages that are his due is a great crime which cries to the avenging anger of Heaven. "Behold, the hire of the laborers... which by fraud has been kept back by you, crieth; and the cry of them hath entered into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth."(6) Lastly, the rich must religiously refrain from cutting down the workmen's earnings, whether by force, by fraud, or by usurious dealing; and with all the greater reason because the laboring man is, as a rule, weak and unprotected, and because his slender means should in proportion to their scantiness be accounted sacred. Were these precepts carefully obeyed and followed out, would they not be sufficient of themselves to keep under all strife and all its causes?

jester · « **Reply #14 on:** March 10, 2013, 03:57:56 PM »

Telesphorus, who will be the judges of what is just?

In practice, not as a thought or quote.