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Author Topic: Catholic Family Rejects All CÖVÌD Restrictions  (Read 2633 times)

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Offline ByzCat3000

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Re: Catholic Family Rejects All CÖVÌD Restrictions
« Reply #30 on: June 14, 2021, 08:55:30 PM »
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  • If a “Catholic” chapel required a ναccιnє to attend it, it seems to me that that would be a schismatic act.
    Why isn't that true of masks then to a lesser extent?


    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Catholic Family Rejects All CÖVÌD Restrictions
    « Reply #31 on: June 14, 2021, 09:07:42 PM »
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  • Why isn't that true of masks then to a lesser extent?

    I certainly don’t believe that masks should be required either, but I can understand, for practical purposes, a particular priest being cautious and requiring it TEMPORARILY. Also, masks aren’t nearly as dangerous to your health as a ναccιnє would be. Vαccιnєs can permanently and adversely affect a person’s health thus violating the Fifth Commandment.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Catholic Family Rejects All CÖVÌD Restrictions
    « Reply #32 on: June 14, 2021, 09:11:19 PM »
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  • ... in my opinion it is objectively disrespectful to worship God with a mask on ....
    How so, "objectively"?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Catholic Family Rejects All CÖVÌD Restrictions
    « Reply #33 on: June 14, 2021, 09:43:17 PM »
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  • Pax, Ladislaus.  


    Question for you guys.

    If one could not find a chapel that did not require proof of c o v i d 19 vaccination, would you consider it a moral imperative to go get jabbed so you could attend mass? Assume for the sake of argument the ναccιnє was not tainted with aborted fetal cells, so it's not straight up immoral, it's just highly dangerous for all the reasons that I think we are all already concerned about it.

    Given your stipulation there were a vax that had not been morally tainted, then I would likely get the jab in order to attend Mass and receive the Sacraments.  Of course I would pray about it, since that would entail significant risk to my health and likely reduce my lifespan, but I'd rather impact the health of my body rather than that of my soul.  I'm not one who's capable of thriving spiritually without the Sacraments.  Now, if I had to miss Mass but could somehow receive Holy Communion and have access to Confession, then that might be a different story.

    As I've said on other threads, if you take the moral considerations around abortion out of the equation, I would likely accept the jab if I had to in order to continue supporting my family.  I have lots of life insurance.

    I don't consider masking to be anywhere near the same category.

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Catholic Family Rejects All CÖVÌD Restrictions
    « Reply #34 on: June 14, 2021, 09:43:55 PM »
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  • How so, "objectively"?
    I could make arguments, and maybe I will tomorrow, but what I meant by "objectively" in this case was something like "I'm really not judging subjective dispositions here"


    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Catholic Family Rejects All CÖVÌD Restrictions
    « Reply #35 on: June 14, 2021, 09:48:59 PM »
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  • Given your stipulation there were a vax that had not been morally tainted, then I would likely get the jab in order to attend Mass and receive the Sacraments.  Of course I would pray about it, since that would entail significant risk to my health and likely reduce my lifespan, but I'd rather impact the health of my body rather than that of my soul.  I'm not one who's capable of thriving spiritually without the Sacraments.  Now, if I had to miss Mass but could somehow receive Holy Communion and have access to Confession, then that might be a different story.

    As I've said on other threads, if you take the moral considerations around abortion out of the equation, I would likely accept the jab if I had to in order to continue supporting my family.  I have lots of life insurance.

    I don't consider masking to be anywhere near the same category.
    First, note that I didn't ask what you personally would choose to do (though I don't mind knowing) but what you would say is morally imperative.  I will admit it seems problematic to me that one is *morally obliged* to capitulate to NWO in order to attend mass, that God would be *displeased* if one would refuse to do this.  Of course there are also multiple layers to consider here, if there were not a single church in all the world that wasn't requiring, say, a vaccine card, than I guess we'd ether have to concede that it was justified or else leave the Church (the gates of Hell have prevailed).  on the other hand, theoretically one could move, albeit not immediately, etc. if it was just all the churches near you that had compromised, etc.

    I wasn't saying masks were equivalent to vaccines I just wanted to know what your underlying principles are.

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Catholic Family Rejects All CÖVÌD Restrictions
    « Reply #36 on: June 14, 2021, 09:49:57 PM »
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  • I certainly don’t believe that masks should be required either, but I can understand, for practical purposes, a particular priest being cautious and requiring it TEMPORARILY. 
    At this point?  Seriously?  Or are you just speaking theoretically, like "we shouldn't be super hard on priests that did this in early 2020"

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Catholic Family Rejects All CÖVÌD Restrictions
    « Reply #37 on: June 14, 2021, 09:50:52 PM »
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  • Given your stipulation there were a vax that had not been morally tainted, then I would likely get the jab in order to attend Mass and receive the Sacraments.  Of course I would pray about it, since that would entail significant risk to my health and likely reduce my lifespan, but I'd rather impact the health of my body rather than that of my soul.  I'm not one who's capable of thriving spiritually without the Sacraments.  Now, if I had to miss Mass but could somehow receive Holy Communion and have access to Confession, then that might be a different story.

    As I've said on other threads, if you take the moral considerations around abortion out of the equation, I would likely accept the jab if I had to in order to continue supporting my family.  I have lots of life insurance.

    I don't consider masking to be anywhere near the same category.
    For what its worth I guess its easy for me to be gung ho about this since the SSPX 30 minutes from my home isn't doing this crap.  I'd kinda see the finger pointing on either side ("you're sinning by not going to Covidist mass" or the other way around) to be kinda victim blaming... missing the point that everything is just a mess.  But then, what do I know.


    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Catholic Family Rejects All CÖVÌD Restrictions
    « Reply #38 on: June 14, 2021, 09:52:12 PM »
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  • How so, "objectively"?
    https://dominusvobiscuм.home.blog/2020/08/10/all-we-with-face-unveiled-masking-christian-worship/

    I find this article quite persuasive on the subject

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Catholic Family Rejects All CÖVÌD Restrictions
    « Reply #39 on: June 14, 2021, 10:07:50 PM »
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  • Yeah, there's some balance to be had in terms of masking.  So, for instance, if people own a private business they could specify that they don't allow people without masks in there ... and could just as easily specify that they won't serve people without a shirt or shoes, or wearing bikinis ... or even that a suite and tie are required.  It's their business.  If I don't like their restrictions, I won't patronize them.  Issue is more with government ... and then the corporations that blend together with government so that the separation is blurry (Google, Amazon, Walmart, etc.)

    Also, there may be an obligation of charity.  Some people are absolutely terrified of CÖVÌD.  I knew one person who refused to leave her home the entire duration of the lσcкdσωn, would have groceries delivered, etc.  If it would cause someone else serious distress, there's not always an issue to wear a mask.  I don't always need to be making political statements.  Perhaps put on the mask and make some comments that would help them think.  Should I terrorize such a person to make some kind of point ... which would be lost on them anyway?  And to others witnessing it, I would just come across as an arrogant selfish jerk.

    I've had a few contractors at my home a few times (plumber, HVAC, and other trades).  Each time they showed up wearing masks.  I told them immediately that they didn't have to wear it, but that I'd put one on if it made them uncomfortable for me not to have one on.  Every one of them immediately took off the mask and thanked me, and with a couple I struck up conversation where we both agreed that CÖVÌD was a fraud.  One HVAC guy doing a tune-up/check on my A/C said that one lady forced him to wear a mask outside in 90-degree weather ... while she was inside by herself, looking out the window with a mask on, and that he almost passed out due to wearing the mask in the heat.  So he was extremely relieved and thankful.

    I've also seen anti-mask zealots who have gotten into physical altercations with a store employee who, making near minimum wage, was asked by his employer to request that the customers wear masks.  Some of them are just doing it because they are required to by their employers to keep their low-wage job.  So why take it out on the employee?  At least take your grievances to a manager or to the owner of the business.  Even if I have a serious complaint about some service, I make a point of never taking it out on the low-paid employee who's picking up the phone.

    Given that there's nothing intrinsically wrong about wearing a mask, I don't feel any obligation to constantly be making political statements.  It's like the principles of prudence around fraternal correction.  One of the chief criteria here is whether you think it'll make a difference.  Let's say that, when masks were required, someone walked into a Walmart without a mask on.  What political statement is he making?  No one knows.  It might be that the person had a medical exemption or that he just forgot to put it on or that he merely objected to the inconvenience of wearing a mask (a selfish motive).  So it's not even as if it's necessarily sending some kind of message.  There's almost like a counter-virtue-signaling attitude from some people who refused to wear masks, that they're doing it to signal their superiority.
    I just noticed this.  I started in the wrong place, so to speak.  While I think you make some sound points (its easy to puff your chest and say you'd never comply for any reason until you actually have to) you seem to have a bit more benign of an attitude toward masking than I do, to the point where you'd even comply with it "to make someone feel more comfortable" and naturally ,if that's where you're at, you *certainly* wouldn't consider skipping mass over it if it came down to it.

    I'm never sure exactly how to have this conversation, I do personally think masks in a church setting are pretty abominable, and maybe that's just a personality thing though there are reasons for it, one of my good friends think its a total non issue and we never get anywhere when we discuss it.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Catholic Family Rejects All CÖVÌD Restrictions
    « Reply #40 on: June 14, 2021, 10:19:17 PM »
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  • Quote
    If one could not find a chapel that did not require proof of c o v i d 19 vaccination, would you consider it a moral imperative to go get jabbed so you could attend mass? Assume for the sake of argument the ναccιnє was not tainted with aborted fetal cells, so it's not straight up immoral, it's just highly dangerous for all the reasons that I think we are all already concerned about it.
    That's a complicated question.  If the requirement to get jabbed was from the church, I’d resist because it would mean they are immorally requiring sin, to endanger one’s health.  If the requirement was from the govt and there was no alternative, then I might take it, unless there was some stipulation that I’m joining a “state religion” by doing so.  That would be apostasy.  To take a death jab to attend mass would be martyrdom, assuming no alternative.  
    .
    Without more details, it’s hard to say completely. 
    .
    I know what you’re saying about wearing a mask, but “it is what it is”.  We live in a communist world.  Freedoms are gone.  Get used to it.  


    Offline MMagdala

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    Re: Catholic Family Rejects All CÖVÌD Restrictions
    « Reply #41 on: June 14, 2021, 10:33:44 PM »
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  • How so, "objectively"?
    He replied earlier with an article but I will add to it, since I was the one earlier to state my theological reason.  I had never referenced an article myself, but I agree with the objective offensiveness, as it signifies reservations about the faith. It is the opposite of affirmation and the equivalency of cowardice -- or, as the article does mention, hiding.  

    In addition, it communicates literally a voluntary subjugation of the self to secular and irrational "commandments" while violating the wholehearted embrace of the First Commandment and my baptismal vows.

    The whole concept I find repulsive to my Catholic sensibilities.

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Catholic Family Rejects All CÖVÌD Restrictions
    « Reply #42 on: June 14, 2021, 10:37:32 PM »
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  • That's a complicated question.  If the requirement to get jabbed was from the church, I’d resist because it would mean they are immorally requiring sin, to endanger one’s health.  If the requirement was from the govt and there was no alternative, then I might take it, unless there was some stipulation that I’m joining a “state religion” by doing so.  That would be apostasy.  To take a death jab to attend mass would be martyrdom, assuming no alternative.  
    .
    Without more details, it’s hard to say completely.
    .
    I know what you’re saying about wearing a mask, but “it is what it is”.  We live in a communist world.  Freedoms are gone.  Get used to it.  
    I disagree that this would constitute martyrdom.  Martyrdom would be that the government kills you for refusing, or even just for attending mass.  The idea that somehow its martyrdom if you comply seems ridiculous to me.  Why are we complying to begin with?

    Since this is the correct thread I'll reply to your other point on this thread as well.  Even let's say you're right that a mask is a "symbol of communist rule" (which I agree with though I think Peter K points out some other things that go beyond that, but let's even say he was wrong about all of them) isn't there something inherently disrespectful about the whole situation of wearing communist symbols to mass, or worse, priests requiring them?  I have some agreement with "Freedoms are gone, get used to it" in the secular realm (though I'm conflicted about this and think its fatalistic) but I think its doubly problematic in church, a place which ought not to be controlled by the secular state (isn't that supposed to be an NO thing not a Trad Catholic thing?) 

    I honestly feel like its more virtuous, given no alternative, to make the priest kick you out for refusing, but then, its easy for me to say since I'm not in that situation, and I can't prove my point either.

    Offline MMagdala

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    Re: Catholic Family Rejects All CÖVÌD Restrictions
    « Reply #43 on: June 14, 2021, 10:39:21 PM »
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  •  I am fairly persuaded by the arguments of Peter Kwasinewski and others that wearing a mask at  mass is disrespectful and sacrilegious
    Although I hadn't read that, I see that my Catholic sensibilities have been validated by someone I greatly respect.

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Catholic Family Rejects All CÖVÌD Restrictions
    « Reply #44 on: June 15, 2021, 04:18:50 AM »
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  • At this point?  Seriously?  Or are you just speaking theoretically, like "we shouldn't be super hard on priests that did this in early 2020"


    No, not at this point. In the beginning of this fiasco there was a lot of confusion, so I do give them a bit of leeway.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?