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Author Topic: Cardinal Newman was not a Modernist  (Read 6684 times)

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Online Ladislaus

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Re: Cardinal Newman was not a Modernist
« Reply #75 on: May 13, 2023, 07:09:19 AM »
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  • Sean loves Newman now on account of his SVDS (Sedevavantist Derangement Syndrome) because he finds material in Newman that supports R&R.  But then you can find support for R&R in the works of any Modernist.  Modernists have no use for the teaching authority of the Church.

    We have Newman on record coming out against papal infallibility (something R&R dislike and are as hostile to as Newman was), and against the Syllabus of Errors (but Sean ignores that part).

    What won’t and can’t go away is Newman’s statement that infallibility will be properly interpreted and corrected by a future pope.  That is textbook Modernism.  In the condemnations of Modernism, Catholics are taught that we must accept dogmas as they were understood by the Church at the time they were defined and cannot appeal to a future pope or Council to correct or amend them toward a better or clearer understanding.

    On the basis of that statement alone, it’s proven that Newman was a Modernist.  Case closed.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Cardinal Newman was not a Modernist
    « Reply #76 on: May 13, 2023, 07:53:15 AM »
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  • Sean loves Newman now on account of his SVDS (Sedevavantist Derangement Syndrome) because he finds material in Newman that supports R&R.  But then you can find support for R&R in the works of any Modernist.  Modernists have no use for the teaching authority of the Church.

    We have Newman on record coming out against papal infallibility (something R&R dislike and are as hostile to as Newman was), and against the Syllabus of Errors (but Sean ignores that part).

    What won’t and can’t go away is Newman’s statement that infallibility will be properly interpreted and corrected by a future pope.  That is textbook Modernism.  In the condemnations of Modernism, Catholics are taught that we must accept dogmas as they were understood by the Church at the time they were defined and cannot appeal to a future pope or Council to correct or amend them toward a better or clearer understanding.

    On the basis of that statement alone, it’s proven that Newman was a Modernist.  Case closed.

    Ladislaus is talking out of his ass again.

    Any connection between RR and Newman has never entered into my mind (and I'd be curious to see you cite something from him which you think supports RR, as I've never seen him cited by anyone in support of it).

    You are clearly having another SVDS episode.

    As for Newman questioning papal infallibility BEFORE IT WAS DEFINED, then you should for the same reason consider St. Thomas Aquinas a modernist for questioning the Immaculate Conception before it was defined.  In fact, you should hold Aquinas in even higher derision, since he died in his opinions, whereas Newman sacrificed his own opinion in docility to the Church.

    The hubris/narcisissm implicit in your rejection of Leo XIII and Pope St. Pius X's endorsement of Newman (and this without ever having read a thing he wrote) is typical you.

    You never even bothered to ask why I like Newman, but prefer to create/invent gratuitous reasons, real only in your overactive imagination, instead.

    The reason I like Newman's works is because he is the proto-antimodernist: His essay on the development of doctrine pre-empted anything/everything the modernists did afterwards, howsoever they misappropriate him (easy to do because he was not a scholastic).

    Back in my conciliar days, the modernists at the seminary cited him as reason for overturning the preconciliar teachings, andd consequently, unlike you and 99% of the seminarians, I went to the book and foundd it said exactly the opposite of what they attributed to him.

    But you really have to be a moron to think that book means what you think it means (ignorantly, because you never read it), with Newman still receiving the vindication of the anti-modernist champion, Pope St. Pius X (as though he wouldn't have condemned both Newman and the book, if it actualy was modernist).

    Even Orestes Brownson retracted his previous criticisms.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Cardinal Newman was not a Modernist
    « Reply #77 on: May 13, 2023, 08:11:47 AM »
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  • Ladislaus is talking out of his ass again.

    Any connection between RR and Newman has never entered into my mind (and I'd be curious to see you cite something from him which you think supports RR, as I've never seen him cited by anyone in support of it).

    Wow, you can't even be honest about this.  You started the whole Newman thing because you found him babbling about a suspended Magisterium during the Arian crisis.  You're completely lying about how you like Newman for being an anti-Modernist (which is an utter joke) when the thread you first started about him was exclusively focused on the suspension of the Magisterium ... an opinion that Monsignor Fenton characterized as "bizarre" (and that was his way of being charitable).

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Cardinal Newman was not a Modernist
    « Reply #78 on: May 13, 2023, 08:13:32 AM »
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  • As for Newman questioning papal infallibility BEFORE IT WAS DEFINED ...

    :facepalm:  Newman's statements came after the definition where in communication with fellow Modernists who were lamenting the definition, he consoled them by appealing to a future pope that would correct or revise the definition.  That's in line with his Hegelian-dialectic view of the development of doctrine.

    I supposed that his opposition to the Syllabus of Errors also came before the Syllabus was issued, right?

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Cardinal Newman was not a Modernist
    « Reply #79 on: May 13, 2023, 08:17:22 AM »
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  • The hubris/narcisissm implicit in your rejection of Leo XIII and Pope St. Pius X's endorsement of Newman (and this without ever having read a thing he wrote) is typical you.

    As has been pointed out, it's hardly possible that St. Pius X himself studied the profusely voluminous writings of Newman.  What he was endorsing was some apologetical work from a bishop who cherry-picked the Catholic-sounding quotes from Newman.  Newman, like all Modernists, as St. Pius X himself stated, blended orthodox Catholic propositions with Modernist ones, so someone who wanted to be an apologist for Newman could merely cherry-pick the Catholic-sounding ones to put together an apologetic piece.

    Cardinal Manning stated that Newman was guilty of at least 10 heresies, and several bishops in the UK denounced Newman to Rome for heresy.  Newman was allied with the excommunicated Dollinger in agitating against papal infallibility and then reluctantly paid lip service to it on a prorivional basis, with the hope that a future pope would come along and correct/revise it ... textbook Modernism.  In fact, some of the dissidents thanked Newman for his development of doctrine position because it enabled them to retain office by paying lip service to infallibility with the understanding that it was still "under development".

    St. Pius X, while a great saint, was only human, and he made a mistake in endorsing Newman based upon his misplaced trust in the bishop who wrote the book that he was endorsing.  Archbishop Lefebvre, while a saintly man himself, made some poor judgments in putting his trust in the likes of Fr. Schmidberger and Bishop Fellay (among many others) ... or allowing Urrutigoity to enter STAS, etc.  Archbishop Lefebvre made quite a few mistakes, but he's only human.  And Archbishop Lefebvre will undoubtedly be canonized some day despite these mistakes.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Cardinal Newman was not a Modernist
    « Reply #80 on: May 13, 2023, 08:35:46 AM »
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  • Lol…Lad is triggered and having an episode::)
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Cardinal Newman was not a Modernist
    « Reply #81 on: May 13, 2023, 08:36:18 AM »
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  • Msgr. Fenton:
    Quote
    Cardinal Newman in his Letter to the Duke of Norfolk (certainly the least valuable of his published works), supports the bizarre thesis that the final determination of what is really condemned in an authentic ecclesiastical pronouncement is the work of private theologians, rather than of the particular organ of the ecclesia docens which has actually formulated the condemnation. The faithful could, according to his theory, find what a pontifical docuмent actually means, not from the content of the docuмent itself, but from the speculations of the theologians.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Cardinal Newman was not a Modernist
    « Reply #82 on: May 13, 2023, 08:37:27 AM »
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  • Wow, you can't even be honest about this.  You started the whole Newman thing because you found him babbling about a suspended Magisterium during the Arian crisis.  You're completely lying about how you like Newman for being an anti-Modernist (which is an utter joke) when the thread you first started about him was exclusively focused on the suspension of the Magisterium ... an opinion that Monsignor Fenton characterized as "bizarre" (and that was his way of being charitable).

    What a total mentally ill dioshit.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Cardinal Newman was not a Modernist
    « Reply #83 on: May 13, 2023, 08:46:02 AM »
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  • As has been pointed out, it's hardly possible that St. Pius X himself studied the profusely voluminous writings of Newman.  What he was endorsing was some apologetical work from a bishop who cherry-picked the Catholic-sounding quotes from Newman.  Newman, like all Modernists, as St. Pius X himself stated, blended orthodox Catholic propositions with Modernist ones, so someone who wanted to be an apologist for Newman could merely cherry-pick the Catholic-sounding ones to put together an apologetic piece.

    Cardinal Manning stated that Newman was guilty of at least 10 heresies, and several bishops in the UK denounced Newman to Rome for heresy.  Newman was allied with the excommunicated Dollinger in agitating against papal infallibility and then reluctantly paid lip service to it on a prorivional basis, with the hope that a future pope would come along and correct/revise it ... textbook Modernism.  In fact, some of the dissidents thanked Newman for his development of doctrine position because it enabled them to retain office by paying lip service to infallibility with the understanding that it was still "under development".

    St. Pius X, while a great saint, was only human, and he made a mistake in endorsing Newman based upon his misplaced trust in the bishop who wrote the book that he was endorsing.  Archbishop Lefebvre, while a saintly man himself, made some poor judgments in putting his trust in the likes of Fr. Schmidberger and Bishop Fellay (among many others) ... or allowing Urrutigoity to enter STAS, etc.  Archbishop Lefebvre made quite a few mistakes, but he's only human.  And Archbishop Lefebvre will undoubtedly be canonized some day despite these mistakes.

    Lol…Manning said Newman was England’s greatest Catholic.

    And the imputation of negligence and irresponsibility to Pius X is typical Lad:

    For a man willing to reject everything which does not agree with his delusions (flattening the earth, rejecting the Council of Trent, and all the catechisms since on BOD, rejecting the Church’s sacramental theology on ministerial intention, deposing 3 generations of popes and the entire hierarchy), well, flattening Newman is small potatoes.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Cardinal Newman was not a Modernist
    « Reply #84 on: May 13, 2023, 08:49:27 AM »
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  • What a total mentally ill dioshit.

    Project much?  :laugh1:

    What part of what I wrote was not correct?  You started your praise of Newman not because of any "anti-Modernist" statements he allegedly made but because of his suspended Magisterium theory.

    I suppose that Monsignor Fenton was "mentally ill" also, and so was Cardinal Manning.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Cardinal Newman was not a Modernist
    « Reply #85 on: May 13, 2023, 10:01:02 AM »
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  • Project much?  :laugh1:

    What part of what I wrote was not correct?  You started your praise of Newman not because of any "anti-Modernist" statements he allegedly made but because of his suspended Magisterium theory.

    I suppose that Monsignor Fenton was "mentally ill" also, and so was Cardinal Manning.

    No, they weren’t flat earth Catharinian pope deposing Feeneyite internal forum reading schismatics.

    That unique combo is reserved to you alone.

    You're simply vomiting your suspicions as though they were true (as you often do), because that’s what you need them to be for your argument.

    Of course, you sin rashly in doing so, but I realize sin takes a back seat for the narcissist.

    That I also agree with Newman’s historically factual account of the temporary suspension of the Ecclesia docens is irrelevant to the fact that I also find in him the prototypical antimodernist principles which St. Pius X vindicated, and Brownson later accepted.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline rum

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    Re: Cardinal Newman was not a Modernist
    « Reply #86 on: May 13, 2023, 10:38:31 AM »
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  • Maybe Sean Johnson overestimates Newman, Brownson, and St. Pius X.

    I remember St. Thomas Aquinas' view of his own prodigious output:

    https://www.catholic.com/qa/when-st-thomas-aquinas-likened-his-work-to-straw-was-that-a-retraction-of-what-he-wrote


    Quote
    Question:
    When St. Thomas Aquinas likened his work to straw, was that a retraction of what he wrote?

    Answer:
    In the Thurston and Attwater revision of Alban Butler’s Lives of the Saints, the episode is described this way:

    Quote
    On the feast of St. Nicholas [in 1273, Aquinas] was celebrating Mass when he received a revelation that so affected him that he wrote and dictated no more, leaving his great work the Summa Theologiae unfinished. To Brother Reginald’s (his secretary and friend) expostulations he replied, “The end of my labors has come. All that I have written appears to be as so much straw after the things that have been revealed to me.” When later asked by Reginald to return to writing, Aquinas said, “I can write no more. I have seen things that make my writings like straw.” (www.catholic-forum.com/saintS/stt03002.htm)
    Aquinas died three months later while on his way to the ecuмenical council of Lyons.

    Aquinas’s vision may have been a vision of heaven, compared to which everything else, no matter how glorious, seems worthless. We can only speculate on that point. Scholars, hagiographers, and Catholics in general have never understood Aquinas’s comment to be a retraction or refutation of anything he wrote. If it had been, Pope Leo XIII would not have encouraged a renewed interest in Thomistic theology and philosophy, and Aquinas would not have been named a Doctor of the Church.

    It is also reported that Aquinas had another mystical experience in which the voice of Christ said to him, “You have written well of me, Thomas” (www2.nd.edu/Departments//Maritain/etext/thomas1.htm).



    As I said earlier what is going on with these coy categories "anti-modernist" and "modernist". Why aren't the prevailing categories "enemy of тαℓмυdists," "dupe of тαℓмυdists," and "allies of тαℓмυdists"?

    Those are the three categories I use when sizing up people.
    Some would have people believe that I'm a deceiver because I've used various handles on different Catholic forums. They only know this because I've always offered such information, unprompted. Various troll accounts on FE. Ben on SuscipeDomine. Patches on ABLF 1.0 and TeDeum. GuitarPlucker, Busillis, HatchC, and Rum on Cathinfo.

    Offline OABrownson1876

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    Re: Cardinal Newman was not a Modernist
    « Reply #87 on: May 14, 2023, 03:48:43 PM »
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  • Just to be clear about Orestes Brownson's view of Newman, we quote what he said of Newman just one year prior to his death in 1876:

    "A friend, in whose judgment we place great confidence, remarks to us that Dr. Newman does not appear to write in a thoroughly Catholic spirit; that even when his doctrine is orthodox, the animus, the spirit, is at least half-Anglican.  Dr. Newman is decidedly an Englishman, with most of the characteristics of Englishmen.  He seems to us to retain an affection for Anglicanism which we do not share...His Catholicity, which we do not doubt is very genuine, is something added to his Anglicanism, not something diverse or essentially different from it.  It is something more than Anglicanism, but not something different in kind.  In fact, we detect no radical change in the habits of his mind effected by his conversion; and his republication of his works written and published when he was still an Anglican, with only very meagre notes, would seem to indicate that in his own judgment none did take place."
      ("Newman's Reply to Gladstone, 1875" Brownson's Collected Works, vol. 13, p. 500)

      This is only one excerpt from Brownson on Newman, but it is very clear that, although some believe that Brownson "patched things up" with Newman in 1864, Brownson, up to the end of his days, held Newman to be suspect of an Anglican spirit.

    And I trust Brownson's orthodoxy long before trusting Newman's.  In fact, Brownson defended the Immaculate Conception before its definition in 1854, Papal Infallibility before its definition in 1870, and he did an article on Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus.  As a side note, Brownson defended the Immaculate Conception long before its formal definition, in lieu of the fact that notable theologians failed to defend it.  *Read Brownson's article on the Immaculate Conception. Immaculate Conception
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    Online Incredulous

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    Re: Cardinal Newman was not a Modernist
    « Reply #88 on: May 15, 2023, 09:29:15 AM »
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  • So was Pope St. Pius X.

    Was he a judaizer too?

    Your use of associations are typically sophomoric.



    Before he was a Saint, was Pope Pius X comfortable with Cardinal Rampolla?
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Online Incredulous

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    Re: Cardinal Newman was not a Modernist
    « Reply #89 on: May 15, 2023, 09:37:40 AM »
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  • Sean loves Newman now on account of his SVDS (Sedevavantist Derangement Syndrome) because he finds material in Newman that supports R&R.  But then you can find support for R&R in the works of any Modernist. 


    That too... but in previous posts Sean alluded to being very influenced by the Newman's writings during his SSPX seminary days.

    And because Denzinger published Newman's works and the SSPX endorsed it, the jew Cardinal just had to be Kosher.

    It goes to show the power (and the danger) that seminary education has in forming young minds.

    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi