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Author Topic: Cardinal Newman was not a Modernist  (Read 6710 times)

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Offline Incredulous

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Re: Cardinal Newman was not a Modernist
« Reply #45 on: May 11, 2023, 05:52:37 PM »
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  • Hmmm.  He strongly resembles Michael Voris here.

    And why does he keep holding his ear?

    He uses the s
    ame pose in many photos.
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Cardinal Newman was not a Modernist
    « Reply #46 on: May 11, 2023, 05:56:35 PM »
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  • Father Feeney was so funny!

    "It was the spirit of Newman’s writings, quite as much as his over-esteemed clarity, which made him so fit the purposes of American Catholics at non-Catholic colleges. For in everything that Newman said in print, after he rationalized his way into the Church, there is a clear determination to dissociate himself from all that he considered vulgar (that is, not English) in his new-found religion. He felt, for example, that devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary was being carried too far, and that the infallibility of the Pope was something to keep quiet about!"
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi


    Offline Cera

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    Re: Cardinal Newman was not a Modernist
    « Reply #47 on: May 11, 2023, 08:29:05 PM »
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  • He’s definitely not a Saint and more likely a ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ.
    This disgusting unfounded rumor originated in a sodomist magazine (in a lame attempt to normalize their perversion) and was picked up and spread far and wide by the TIA cult.
    Pray for the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary

    Offline dymphnaw

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    Re: Cardinal Newman was not a Modernist
    « Reply #48 on: May 11, 2023, 08:53:34 PM »
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  • This disgusting unfounded rumor originated in a sodomist magazine (in a lame attempt to normalize their perversion) and was picked up and spread far and wide by the TIA cult.
    That relationship with Fr. Ambrose sounds disgusting.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Cardinal Newman was not a Modernist
    « Reply #49 on: May 11, 2023, 09:15:53 PM »
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  • This disgusting unfounded rumor originated in a sodomist magazine (in a lame attempt to normalize their perversion) and was picked up and spread far and wide by the TIA cult.

    Uhm, no.  Suspicions regarding Newman and Ambrose St. John long predate these modern publications.  Even the Modernist Vatican realized that something was off there, ordering that the remains of Newman be separated from those of Ambrose due to their desire to canonize Newman and to take this problem out of the spotlight.  After Ambrose died, Newman spent the entire night lying with his corpse and weeping inconsolably.  He also wrote that no spouse could have such deep feelings for a departed spouse as he had for Ambrose, and then willed that his mortal remains be mingled with those of Ambrose after his own death.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Cardinal Newman was not a Modernist
    « Reply #50 on: May 12, 2023, 10:28:21 AM »
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  • This is an excellent book, by Father Paul Kimball ...

    Cardinal Newman:  Trojan Horse in the Church

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Cardinal Newman was not a Modernist
    « Reply #51 on: May 12, 2023, 10:41:10 AM »
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  • This is an excellent book, by Father Paul Kimball ...

    Cardinal Newman:  Trojan Horse in the Church

    Here's a better one, pre-empting that one:

































    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline WhiteWorkinClassScapegoat

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    Re: Cardinal Newman was not a Modernist
    « Reply #52 on: May 12, 2023, 11:30:31 AM »
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  • Quote
    The more you read Newman, the less you remember what he says. He is an author whom it is impossible to quote. What you recall, after you have finished reading him, is never what the clarity of his style was revealing, but some small, unwarranted queerness that it was almost concealing.

    AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA :laugh1:
    Dan shall be a serpent in the way, a viper by the path, that bites the horse's heels so his rider falls backward. ~ Genesis 49:17

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    Offline OABrownson1876

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    Re: Cardinal Newman was not a Modernist
    « Reply #53 on: May 12, 2023, 11:31:36 AM »
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  • I have not yet read this thread, but I have read what Dr. Brownson says about the then "Mr. Newman" and his ideas of "The Development of Doctrine."  Brownson and Card. Newman had a 17-year debate on this theory, and, I think the record shows, old Dr. Brownson got the better of him.  http://www.orestesbrownson.org/newmans-theory-of-christian-doctrine.html  Let the record state that Brownson respected Card. Newman, but certainly called into question his theory on the issue of "The Development of Doctrine."

    In fact, Brownson was not in favor of Newman being promoted to cardinal, nor was he in favor of any Protestant convert being promoted to bishop/cardinal.  And Brownson himself was a convert, the most famous of all lay converts.   In fact the 1876 Jesuit publication, American Ecclesiastical Review (obituary article), ranks Brownson one of the top three minds of all time, ranking him alongside Plato and St. Augustine. 
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Cardinal Newman was not a Modernist
    « Reply #54 on: May 12, 2023, 11:41:03 AM »
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  • I have not yet read this thread, but I have read what Dr. Brownson says about the then "Mr. Newman" and his ideas of "The Development of Doctrine."  Brownson and Card. Newman had a 17-year debate on this theory, and, I think the record shows, old Dr. Brownson got the better of him.  http://www.orestesbrownson.org/newmans-theory-of-christian-doctrine.html  Let the record state that Brownson respected Card. Newman, but certainly called into question his theory on the issue of "The Development of Doctrine."

    From the same book, regarding the objectoins of Dr. Brownson:


























    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Cardinal Newman was not a Modernist
    « Reply #55 on: May 12, 2023, 11:46:53 AM »
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  • Here's a better one, pre-empting that one:

    Nonsense.  Newman was one of the precursors of Modernism making it's way into the Church, thus Father Kimball's title calling him out as a Trojan Horse.  Newman has often been called, quiet correctly, the Father of Vatican II.

    We've already docuмented how he disliked papal infallibility and felt that a future pope would fix/correct it.  This appeal to a future pope / Council and the notion that dogmas don't have to be believed as they were defined, in the sense they were defined at the time, is quintissential / textbook Modernism.


    Offline OABrownson1876

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    Re: Cardinal Newman was not a Modernist
    « Reply #56 on: May 12, 2023, 11:48:32 AM »
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  • Thanks Sean, will give this a read as well as the rest of the thread.  It is worth any man's time to give Brownson a thorough read on the Newman question.  If I recall it was Bishop John "The Dagger" Hughes of New York who asked Dr. Brownson to write a refutation of Newman, as he felt the "Development theory" dangerous.
    Bryan Shepherd, M.A. Phil.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Cardinal Newman was not a Modernist
    « Reply #57 on: May 12, 2023, 11:49:50 AM »
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  • Nonsense.  Newman was one of the precursors of Modernism making it's way into the Church, thus Father Kimball's title calling him out as a Trojan Horse.  Newman has often been called, quiet correctly, the Father of Vatican II.

    Complete ignorance from a man who obviously never read anything from the author he is criticizing.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Cardinal Newman was not a Modernist
    « Reply #58 on: May 12, 2023, 11:51:26 AM »
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  • Thanks Sean, will give this a read as well as the rest of the thread.  It is worth any man's time to give Brownson a thorough read on the Newman question.  If I recall it was the Bishop John "The Dagger" Hughes of New York who asked Dr. Brownson to write a refutation of Newman, as he felt the "Development theory" dangerous.

    Yet it was largely his development theory which rescued me from the modernist seminary and conciliarism.  While they were trumpeting Newman's theory in their defense (just as te intro I posted above mentioned), I actually read the book and found them roundly and unambiguously condemned by it. 
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline rum

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    Re: Cardinal Newman was not a Modernist
    « Reply #59 on: May 12, 2023, 11:57:58 AM »
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  • Guilt by association?

    Regarding Reverend Edmond Darvil Benard, I found mention of him (and Maritain and Newman), at some length in the following:

    Quote
    Seven Teachers in the Tradition

    John T. Noonan Jr.

    https://digitalcommons.law.villanova.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3224&context=vlr

    The third of my teachers at this time was a theologian Edmund Darvil
    Benard, a priest of the diocese of Springfield, Massachusetts and a gradu-
    ate of Le Grande S´eminarie in Montreal. Benard was deeply conscious of
    his American identity. He enjoyed singing The Battle Hymn of the Republic.

    In preparing this paper, I discovered that in high school Benard was a
    runner-up in a national contest of students speaking on the Constitution
    of the United States. Despite this American identity, he had a Gallic qual-
    ity, a finesse of feature and of mind, a quickness of intellect, and a re-
    sourcefulness in argument that made every argument with him
    exhilarating.

    He taught a course at Catholic University that was, I believe, entitled
    “Apologetics,” and apologetics is what I undertook to study with him. The
    name, not very common today, suggests apology, but in its Latin root apolo-
    gia it means “a rational defense” as in Newman’s autobiography, Apologia
    pro Vita Sua. Benard was adept in a rational defense of the doctrines of the
    Church.

    Once more I cast myself as the questioner, the aggressive questioner,
    more so with him than with the other two because he enjoyed it more. I
    invited him out at times to dinner. He introduced me to his friend Eu-
    gene Burke, a Paulist, and sometimes I went golfing with them. Our
    friendship continued over the next several years as I settled into the philo-
    sophical graduate program at Catholic University.

    What stands out in particular memory is a trip I took back to Washing-
    ton from North Carolina, where I had been visiting John Kennedy (not
    the president). Benard and Burke had been on vacation, playing golf at
    Pinehurst. I met them by prearrangement and rode back with them. All
    the way, or so it seemed to my clerical companions, I argued with them
    about John Courtney Murray’s new argument for religious liberty. How
    was religious liberty for all reconcilable with the teachings of Leo XIII, of
    Pius IX, of Gregory XVI, not to mention the teachings and actions of me-
    dieval popes? Benard never shut off my challenges, although I think that
    he tired a bit on this trip of six or seven hours. “You ought to talk to
    Murray yourself,” he said, and I eventually did at Woodstock in Maryland.
    At this time, and for some time to come, I had a narrow sense of the
    development of doctrine.

    Benard, I should add, was an authority on Newman and wrote a book
    about Newman. Newman’s name was scarcely unknown to me, but I
    should credit Benard with leading me to a greater appreciation of New-
    man’s range and depth as the best of all theologians writing in English.

    Smith, Arbez, Benard. I turn from the special pleasure of touching
    on memories of my twenties to teachers I learned from later.

    My fourth teacher in the tradition I met only once, but the occasion
    and the lesson were memorable, and I was taught in addition by his books.
    About 1950, I was still in graduate studies at the School of Philosophy at
    the Catholic University when I heard that Jacques Maritain was teaching a
    graduate seminar in philosophy at Princeton. Maritain was widely re-
    garded as the preeminent Catholic philosopher in the world. I deter-
    mined to attend at least one session of the seminar at Princeton and did
    so.

    The subject of the session was “evil”, most specifically “moral evil.”
    How did it occur? How could it occur in a universe created and ruled by a
    good God? Maritain presented a view that was faithfully Thomistic: Evil
    was an absence of good, a failure of the will, a kind of nothingness. But
    why did an all-good and all-powerful God permit this kind of failure to
    occur? Why had God created such fallible creatures? Why did God not
    foresee the failures and eliminate the occasions on which the evil would
    arise? To questions such as these Maritain had no answer. Evil was a mys-
    tery incapable of rational explanation, a blankness of unintelligibility.
    The book of Maritain’s that I most valued was entitled The Person and
    the Common Good. In it he distinguished between “the person”, that is, each
    human being with an end transcending this life, and what he termed “the
    individual”, that is, each human being considered as part of humanity with
    no end higher than the preservation of its life in this world. In this frame-
    work each of us was both a person and an individual. As an individual, we
    were properly subjected to the constraints necessary for society to func-
    tion. As a person, each of us had a drive and a destiny exceeding our
    temporal condition and requiring respect from those shaping social con-
    trols. Recognition of the personhood of each human being did not by
    itself create a charter of human rights, but rather offered a perspective
    and possibilities for the development of such rights. It was no accident
    that Maritain was a key draftsman of the United Nations Charter of
    Human Rights and a principal mentor of Pope Paul VI.

    I valued what I learned from Maritain as well as what I learned from
    ´Etienne Gilson, who came to teach for a while at Berkeley and whom I
    came to know and to entertain. He told me one story of how he and
    Maritain were given an audience by Pope Pius XII. The audience went on
    for over an hour. A papal attendant then approached the pope with two
    large medals to be awarded the philosophers. “No, no,” the pope said.
    “The usual ones.”


    Fr. Feeney's The Point had negative things to say about Maritain (no mention of Benard, though Benard seems to be in a similar stream to Maritain and Noonan):

    Quote
    Good Night, Sweet Princeton!

    https://fatherfeeney.wordpress.com/2009/08/22/the-point-july-1952/

    Maritainism is a system of thought which allows Catholics to be both Catholic and acceptable in the drawing rooms of Protestant and Jєωιѕн philosophers. Maritainism is not a seeking and a finding of the Word made flesh. It is a perpetual seeking for un-fleshed truth in an abstract scheme called Christianity. Maritainism is the scrapping of the Incarnation in favor of a God Whose overtures to us never get more personal or loving than the five rational proofs for His existence. This plot to encourage only pre-Bethlehem interest in God takes its name from its perpetrator, that highly respected religious opportunist, Jacques Maritain.

    The slightest acquaintance with Maritain’s history is sufficient to indicate how awry he must be in his Catholicism. He is a former Huguenot who married a Jєωιѕн girl named Raïssa. During their student days in Paris, both Jacques and Raïssa felt a double pull in the general direction of belief. Intellectually they were attracted to the religious self-sufficiency of a Jєωιѕн intuitionist named Henri Bergson. Sociologically they were attracted to the spurious Catholicism of Leon Bloy, a French exhibitionist who made a liturgy of his own crudeness and uncleaness and tried to attach it to the liturgy of the Church. At some point in their association with an unbaptized Bergson and an unwashed Bloy, the Maritains figured out that there was a promising future ahead of them in Catholicism.

    Jacques Maritain is noted for his solemn-high, holier-than-thou appearance. For this reason, more than one priest reports that by the time a Maintain lecture is over, any priest who is present has been made to feel that the Roman collar is around the wrong neck and that perhaps he, the priest, ought to put on a necktie and kneel for Maritain’s blessing.

    One explanation of Maritain’s distant expression is that he fancies himself to be the Drew Pearson of the Christian social order. Judging by Maritain’s passion for the abstract, the fulfillment of all his prophecies will come in an era when mothers can sing such songs as “Rock-a-bye Baby, on the Dendrological Zenith,” and children recite such bedtime prayers as “The Hail Mariology.”

    Jacques Maritain prefers Thomism to Saint Thomas Aquinas and, similarly, he much prefers the notion of the papacy to the person of the Pope. He could not, however, turn down the prestige of an appointment as French ambassador to the Vatican. Maritain went to Rome, but he protected himself against over exposure to Italian faith by visits to Dr. George Santayana. In Maritain, Santayana recognized a brother, the kind of European intellectual cast-off that is annually being grabbed-up by American Universities.

    That Jacques Maritain should now be found preaching at Princeton University is not so strange. It did not require too much insight on Princeton’s part to see that a Catholic who hates Franco, speaks at Jєωιѕн seminaries, and favors “theocentricity” in place of Jesus, would be a bizarre, but harmless, addition to anybody’s faculty club.

    Perhaps Princeton realized also that a Catholic’s admirers are a good measure of his militancy. Among Maritain’s more prominent sympathizers are John Wild, Charles Malik and Mortimer Adler, who are, respectively, an Anglican, a Greek schismatic, and a Jew. Naturally Maritain could not insult intellectuals like these by telling them that although they are outside the Church they can get into Heaven because of their “invincible ignorance.” It was necessary that Maritain concoct a new way of getting around the dogma, “No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church.”

    After a lot of abstract deliberation, Maritain decided that a man could be “invisibly, and by a motion of his heart, a member of the Church, and partake of her life, which is eternal life.” According to Maritain’s new covenant, the important salvation-actions in our world are no longer a head bowed to the waters of Baptism, a hand raised in Absolution, a tongue outstretched to receive Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament. “A motion of his heart,” says Maritain, is all that is required before a man may partake of eternal life.

    The Sacred Heart might have saved Himself a lot of inconvenience had He only known this, one Friday afternoon on Calvary.

    There's a second reference to Jacques Maritain in Fr. Feeney's The Point, Feb 1956:

    Quote
    https://fatherfeeney.wordpress.com/2009/08/22/the-point-february-1956/


    II — The Refugee

    The Point ’s second White Jew is drawn from the religious rather than the secular world, but he has been no less a problem to our readers than Mr. Baruch. He is a refugee from Austria who now conducts, at a Catholic college in New Jersey, a one-man propaganda agency called the Institute of Judaeo-Christian Studies. So “White” is this Jew that at the age of twenty he submitted himself to the ritual of Christian Baptism, and then went on to become a Catholic priest. His name is Father John M. Oesterreicher.

    Before Baptism, John Oesterreicher had been a student of medicine. Three years and a few theology books later, he was ordained a Catholic priest. Even his most prostrate apologists have wondered at such a speeded-up process. And more thoughtful observers have concluded that in the Church which harbors such painful and multiple memories of deceitfully converted “Marrano” Jews, there is something most unusual, to say the least, about the urgency with which John Osterreicher was rushed from Baptism to Holy Orders.

    Whether by deliberate design or not, the historical fact is that, for hundreds of thousands of German-speaking Jews, Father Oesterreicher’s sudden priesthood became an immediate weapon against the rising anti-Jєωιѕнness of Adolph Hitler. With the weight of the Catholic Church presumably behind him, and the passion of his Jєωιѕн blood clearly pushing him on, Father Oesterreicher began a frenzied crusade of writing and speaking. He invoked, as authorities, both saints and sociologists, popes and psychiatrists. He devised arguments from demonology and anthropology, from scholastics and rationalists — all to prove to the Catholics of Austria and Germany that anyone who speaks ill of a Jew is actually blaspheming Jesus Christ Himself!

    The same Catholics who well knew that the program proposed by Hitler was hardly the Church’s solution to the Jєωιѕн question, knew quite as well that Father Oesterreicher did not have the answer either.

    As Hitler proceeded across Europe, Father Oesterreicher managed to keep several towns ahead of him, and finally, in 1941, turned up as a curate in New York City. Since there were in our whole country only about a dozen Jєωιѕн-convert priests, Father Oesterreicher proved to be a popular novelty. He was the object of much parochial curiosity and found no difficulty in gathering an inquisitive crowd for the lectures he started to give within six months of his arrival here. His message was invariably of one theme. Always there was the appeal to respect, to admire, to love, to fall down in the mud and worship the Jєωιѕн race. And always the appeal was subtly charged with what Father Oesterreicher hoped would pass for the binding authority of the Catholic Church.

    But Father Oesterreicher did not have to depend solely upon his own initiative. He had a number of American boosters, of whom perhaps the most zealous was Professor Jacques Maritain. Professor Maritain is the French-born, Protestant-reared, Catholic philosopher who married a Russian Jewess named Raïssa Oumansoff. Although known in this country as a speaker at Jєωιѕн seminaries and teacher at Masonic universities, Maritain did try to get a position at a Catholic school. Some years ago, he was interviewed for a job at Fordham University, and stipulated in the course of the discussion that he would expect to be given free rein in all his classes to criticize the pope. Fordham’s Jesuit president turned him down, and Maritain took a job at Princeton, no holds barred.

    When Professor Maritain received an honorary degree a few months ago from Jєωιѕн Brandeis University, his support of Father Oesterreicher accounted for much of the genuine applause he received from the assembled representatives of American Jewry. For Father Oesterreicher, in every point of his Judaeo-Christian program, has complied exactly with the publicized objectives of the powerful American Jєωιѕн Committee. In his books, Walls Are Crumbling and The Bridge, Father Oesterreicher’s glorification of the Jews would erase forever from Catholic minds those New Testament texts which the Jєωιѕн Committee has so repeatedly attacked as “anti-Semitic.” Saint Peter’s accusation in the Acts of the Apostles, chapter 5, that the Jews are the murderers of Christ; Saint Stephen’s vehement repetition of this charge in chapter 7; Saint Paul’s elaboration on the guilt and curse of the Jews in I Thessalonians, 2:15 — these and all other biblical indictments of the Jєωιѕн people are blotted out and replaced by Father Oesterreicher’s devotion to such unbaptized “saints” as Jєωιѕн logician Edmund Husserl and Jєωιѕн intuitionist Henri Bergson.

    In his compliance with the American Jєωιѕн Committee’s declared aim, “to revise Christian religious teaching,” Father Oesterreicher has consistently depreciated the tall stacks of papal legislation against the Jews. And, even more boldly, he has demanded a rewording of the Church’s liturgy, proposing that our annual Good Friday reference to the “perfidious Jews” be changed in meaning! The American Jєωιѕн Committee followed up Father Oesterreicher’s proposal by pulling every string within its grasp from here to Rome. The result? The following half-hearted, much-guarded statement by the Vatican’s Congregation of Rites: “This Sacred Congregation, having been consulted about the matter, has deemed it advisable to make the following declaration only: That, in translations into the vernacular, phrases are not disapproved of which the meaning (for ‘perfidious Jews’) is ‘infidels without belief.’ ”

    Some would have people believe that I'm a deceiver because I've used various handles on different Catholic forums. They only know this because I've always offered such information, unprompted. Various troll accounts on FE. Ben on SuscipeDomine. Patches on ABLF 1.0 and TeDeum. GuitarPlucker, Busillis, HatchC, and Rum on Cathinfo.