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Author Topic: Cardinal Muller Sides with St. Bellarmine  (Read 2945 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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Cardinal Muller Sides with St. Bellarmine
« on: November 08, 2023, 05:33:35 AM »
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  • As an aside, a comment at Gloria.tv notes this article was taken down by LSN.  Are they placing the unity of the clans above their journalistic integrity?

    https://onepeterfive.com/pope-has-uttered-plenty-of-material-heresies-former-vatican-doctrinal-head/

    I only post Muller’s opinion to note the fact of differences of opinion between ecclesiastics on this matter (ie., a couple months ago, I quoted Journet as preferring Cajetan and JST.  Muller obviously has a different view ).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Cardinal Muller Sides with St. Bellarmine
    « Reply #1 on: November 08, 2023, 05:50:41 AM »
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  • His "out" of using the "formal" vs. "material" heresy distinction is contrary to Bellarmine himself, who writes of MANIFEST heresy.

    Quote
    St. Robert Bellarmine, De Romano Pontifice, Book II, Chap. 30: "… for men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple, and condemn him as a heretic."

    Now, there has to be pertinacity, but who can doubt Bergoglio's pertinacity?  Many Catholics have called him out for his heresies, and it's quite clear in the external forum that he pertinaciously adheres to them.

    There's been a false theological trend going back a couple hundred years to conflate "formal" heresy with sincerity, something that can only be judged ultimately in the internal forum, which is why St. Robert speaks of judging men heretics by external works (in the external forum) rather than through "read[ing] hearts" (internal forum).

    "Formal" heresy refers to where someone implicitly rejects the entire formal motive of faith, i.e. the teaching authority of the Church, rather than being in simple error, typically through ignorance ... and not to sincerity.  What heretic didn't "sincerely" believe the heresies he was promoting?


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Cardinal Muller Sides with St. Bellarmine
    « Reply #2 on: November 08, 2023, 05:58:55 AM »
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  • His "out" of using the "formal" vs. "material" heresy distinction is contrary to Bellarmine himself, who writes of MANIFEST heresy.

    I immediately noticed this error as well.  So, he does not agree with Saint Bellarmine.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Cardinal Muller Sides with St. Bellarmine
    « Reply #3 on: November 08, 2023, 06:04:08 AM »
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  • I immediately noticed this error as well.  So, he does not agree with Saint Bellarmine.

    But the point was that he doesn’t advance Cajetan/JST.

    And secondly, that even conciliarists are conceding Francis is at least a material heretic.

    …and I might add that Vigano has been the catalyst for these conciliarists even considering the pope question.  7-8 years ago, I don’t recall a single one discussing the matter.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Cardinal Muller Sides with St. Bellarmine
    « Reply #4 on: November 08, 2023, 06:15:53 AM »
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  • But the point was that he doesn’t advance Cajetan/JST.

    And secondly, that even conciliarists are conceding Francis is at least a material heretic.

    …and I might add that Vigano has been the catalyst for these conciliarists even considering the pope question.  7-8 years ago, I don’t recall a single one discussing the matter.
    Understood.  

    We really don't know that it's because of Vigano.  I just think some of these NO clerics see that Bergoglio is going beyond the First Commandment heresies of Vatican II.  None of them take issue with Vatican II.


    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Cardinal Muller Sides with St. Bellarmine
    « Reply #5 on: November 08, 2023, 06:46:39 AM »
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  • His "out" of using the "formal" vs. "material" heresy distinction is contrary to Bellarmine himself, who writes of MANIFEST heresy.

    Now, there has to be pertinacity, but who can doubt Bergoglio's pertinacity?  Many Catholics have called him out for his heresies, and it's quite clear in the external forum that he pertinaciously adheres to them.

    There's been a false theological trend going back a couple hundred years to conflate "formal" heresy with sincerity, something that can only be judged ultimately in the internal forum, which is why St. Robert speaks of judging men heretics by external works (in the external forum) rather than through "read[ing] hearts" (internal forum).

    "Formal" heresy refers to where someone implicitly rejects the entire formal motive of faith, i.e. the teaching authority of the Church, rather than being in simple error, typically through ignorance ... and not to sincerity.  What heretic didn't "sincerely" believe the heresies he was promoting?

    Are you disassociating subjective sin from external acts or claiming that it is not important in asserting that one is a heretic? 

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Cardinal Muller Sides with St. Bellarmine
    « Reply #6 on: November 08, 2023, 11:48:06 AM »
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  • Are you disassociating subjective sin from external acts or claiming that it is not important in asserting that one is a heretic?

    Your question betrays that you don't understand the notion of formal heresy ... falsely equating it with subjective sin.

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Cardinal Muller Sides with St. Bellarmine
    « Reply #7 on: November 08, 2023, 12:11:34 PM »
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  • Your question betrays that you don't understand the notion of formal heresy ... falsely equating it with subjective sin.

    A formal heretic is one who pertinaciously denies or doubts a proposition that must be believed with Divine and Catholic Faith.  Pertinacity is the element that constitutes the "formal" in the term "formal heretic".

    "
    “Pertinacity consists in this, that one firmly consents in something or doubts, what he knows to be against faith, and determined by the Church. Thus, pertinacity is the voluntary consent of something, consciously or dubitatively against what one actually knows to be against faith."
    (
    Kramer, Paul. To deceive the elect: The catholic doctrine on the question of a heretical Pope . Kindle Edition.)

    Fr. Kramer is above translating a quotation of Fr. Francesco Bordoni (of this work).  


    Pertinacity implies subjective sin.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Cardinal Muller Sides with St. Bellarmine
    « Reply #8 on: November 08, 2023, 01:18:34 PM »
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  • A formal heretic is one who pertinaciously denies or doubts a proposition that must be believed with Divine and Catholic Faith.  Pertinacity is the element that constitutes the "formal" in the term "formal heretic".

    Incorrect.  Formal in formal heresy refers to denying Catholic dogma in such a way as to undermine the formal motive of faith.  You can have a Protestant who grows up believing his heresies and who is inculpable, i.e. has committed no sin against the faith, but he is nevertheless a formal heretic, since he does not accept the formal motive of faith, the authority of God revealing as proposed by the Holy Catholic Church.  You could even (in theory, though this doesn't happen in reality) have someone who happens to materially believe every dogma taught by the Catholic Church, having derived it from the Bible using his own devices, but he's nevertheless a formal heretic because he lacks the formal motive of faith.

    In other words, the "material" is what you believe and the "formal" WHY you believe it.  One can be a formal heretic without having committed a sin.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Cardinal Muller Sides with St. Bellarmine
    « Reply #9 on: November 08, 2023, 01:48:21 PM »
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  • Pertinacity on the other hand simply means that someone is attached to and won't let go of an idea.  It's opposed to someone who holds a heretical proposition out of ignorance or some other factor.  St. Augustine wrote that the litmus test is when someone corrects them, they readily and immediately change their opinion.  So, for instance, someone might have a heretical concept of the Holy Trinity, but someone tells them, "No, the Church teaches [this] about the Holy Trinity." and the person responds with, "Oh, sorry, thanks for explaining it."  Or if someone just utters a heretical proposition due to inattention or a slip of the tongue.  There's no willful perseverance in heresy.

    This too is not necessarily the same as sin.  Someone could very sincerely BELIEVE that he's right, sincerely to the point that they commit no subjective sin in adhering to the belief, and they don't accept the correction because they think they're right and the one correcting him is wrong.  These too are pertinacious in their heresy, even if they haven't committed a sin before God.

    Subjective sin / culpability is a matter that pertains to the internal forum and can ultimately only be judged by God.

    But, as St. Robert Bellarmine taught, we can discern a heretic by his external deeds ... without reading hearts.  "Ratzinger didn't really mean his heresies."

    There's no doubt but that Wojtyla and Ratzinger consistently held and taught that the Old Covenant was not revoked and remained salvific for the Jews.  These were not fleeting thoughts, slips of the tongue, etc.  They consistently held and taught these things for years.  And I'm sure they thought they were right, and for all we know, they sincerely believed it.  And maybe Jorge Bergoglio sincerely believes it.  It's theoretically possible that none of these men committed any subjective sin with that belief.  I know LOTS of people who sincerely believe that those outside the Church can be saved.  Only God can sort out who sinned and to what degree they sinned.  None of that changes the fact that they remain adamant in this belief.  Nearly every heretic undoubtedly believed he was right, and their sincerity or lack thereof is known ultimately only to God.

    So, pertinacity also has nothing to due with sincerity and culpability (or lack thereof).  It has to do with remaining committed to and adamant about a heresy.

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Cardinal Muller Sides with St. Bellarmine
    « Reply #10 on: November 08, 2023, 03:20:14 PM »
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  • Incorrect.  Formal in formal heresy refers to denying Catholic dogma in such a way as to undermine the formal motive of faith.  You can have a Protestant who grows up believing his heresies and who is inculpable, i.e. has committed no sin against the faith, but he is nevertheless a formal heretic, since he does not accept the formal motive of faith, the authority of God revealing as proposed by the Holy Catholic Church.  You could even (in theory, though this doesn't happen in reality) have someone who happens to materially believe every dogma taught by the Catholic Church, having derived it from the Bible using his own devices, but he's nevertheless a formal heretic because he lacks the formal motive of faith.

    In other words, the "material" is what you believe and the "formal" WHY you believe it.  One can be a formal heretic without having committed a sin.

    Hold on.  In your use of the term "formal heresy", are you speaking about it as a "sin" or as a "canonical delict"?  I am speaking about formal heresy as a "sin".  That's why I have often stated that the public "sin" of manifest formal heresy per se separates the heretic from the Church.  I should have made this explicit earlier.


    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Cardinal Muller Sides with St. Bellarmine
    « Reply #11 on: November 09, 2023, 06:42:17 AM »
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  • "I can say with absolute certitude that Jorge 'Francis' Bergoglio is a formal heretic on the basis of the consideration that it is impossible for him to be in any degree inculpable for denying the most basic and universally known revealed truths of our religion, such as the necessity of faith in God for justification and salvation; because that pertains to the Natural Law which is written in the heart (Rom. 2:15). St. Alphonsus writes, 'Certum est hominem teneri ex lege naturali ad Deum per Fidem, Spem et Charitatem se convertere, et ideo elicere earum virtutum actus' – and therefore there is besides the patent matter of heresy, the pertinacity: the inexcusable form of the sin of heresy, which puts Jorge Bergoglio visibly outside of communion with the Catholic Church:

    "'Hæresis est error intellectus, et pertinax contra Fidem, in eo qui Fidem suscepit. … Unde patet, ad Hæresim, ut et Apostasiam, duo requiri, 1. Judicium erroneum, quod est ejus quasi materiale. 2. Pertinaciam; quæ est quasi formale. Porro pertinaciter errare non est hic acriter, et mordicus suum errorem tueri; sed est eum retinere, postquam contrarium est sufficienter propositum: sive quando scit contrarium teneri a reliqua universali Christi in terris Ecclesia, cui suum iudicium præferat' – [St. Alphonsus M. de Liguori, Lib. II. Tract. I. De præcepto Fidei. Dubium III]."

    Kramer, Paul. To deceive the elect: The catholic doctrine on the question of a heretical Pope . Kindle Edition.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Cardinal Muller Sides with St. Bellarmine
    « Reply #12 on: November 09, 2023, 06:53:52 AM »
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  • Hold on.  In your use of the term "formal heresy", are you speaking about it as a "sin" or as a "canonical delict"?  I am speaking about formal heresy as a "sin".  That's why I have often stated that the public "sin" of manifest formal heresy per se separates the heretic from the Church.  I should have made this explicit earlier.

    No, the term "formal" heresy has nothing per se to do with either sin nor the canonical delict.  There's much conflation here, as the term has morphed into a reference to "sinful" heresy vs. non-sinful.  That is not correct.

    As I mentioned, there's matter and form of Catholic faith, the matter being WHAT is believed, the form referring to WHY (by what motivation) something is believed.

    Matter of the faith are the actual doctrinal propositions.  Form refers to why one believes these propositions.

    Pertinacity refers simply to an adherence to some proposition, rather than simply holding it and then being easily corrected.  You're adamant and persistent in your belief.

    Someone can be a formal heretic without having committed a sin.  I brought up the example of a Protestant who was raised such and had never heard about the Catholic Church, etc. ... so someone who never committed an actual sin against faith.  Protestants are all formal heretics, regardless of whether they ever committed a sin against the faith, because they reject the rule of faith that must serve as the formal motive of faith.

    Someone can also be pertinacious in a heretical believe without theoretically having sinned.  Someone could in theory be 100% sincere and convinced that he is adhering to the truth, and thus not have committed a sin, but they're still pertinacious in their belief.

    So all these terms have been hopelessly blended together and conflated.  We cannot know whether or to what degree someone who was raised Protestant has committed a sin, nor whether or to what degree someone who pretinaciously adheres to some heresy is guilty of sin.  Those are matters of the internal forum that we cannot judge and cannot know, and even the Church does not judge about internal matters.

    But formal and pertinacious heresy can be known in the external forum ... while the degree of sin and culpability cannot.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Cardinal Muller Sides with St. Bellarmine
    « Reply #13 on: November 09, 2023, 06:58:34 AM »
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  • "'Hæresis est error intellectus, et pertinax contra Fidem, in eo qui Fidem suscepit. … Unde patet, ad Hæresim, ut et Apostasiam, duo requiri, 1. Judicium erroneum, quod est ejus quasi materiale. 2. Pertinaciam; quæ est quasi formale. Porro pertinaciter errare non est hic acriter, et mordicus suum errorem tueri; sed est eum retinere, postquam contrarium est sufficienter propositum: sive quando scit contrarium teneri a reliqua universali Christi in terris Ecclesia, cui suum iudicium præferat' – [St. Alphonsus M. de Liguori, Lib. II. Tract. I. De præcepto Fidei. Dubium III]."

    Do you see the word sin anywhere in this Latin or any discussion of culpability?  No, because the terms formal and pertinacious do not have to do per se with culpability.  While in practice there's often an overlap of these various conditions, they're formally distinct terms and cannot be conflated.  Father Kramer falsely injects culpability as the criterion for membership in the Church.  This is false.  Again, take a Protestant who may be inculpable (due to some invincible ignorance) of his heresy.  Is he a member of the Church?  Is he capable of being the Pope?  Of course not.  He's in formal heresy ... regardless of whether he's culpable or not.  Father Kramer makes the same error of injecting culpability and sin into the equations, matters which can only be known ultimately to God in the internal forum.

    Cf. the quote from St. Robert Bellarmine above that we do not judge people to be heretics by reading hearts but simply from their external works (and statements).

    But if one starts speculating about culpability, and it can only be speculation, who would be more culpable, someone like Bergoglio who was educated already in Modernist seminaries or a Ratzinger, who had a classic pre-Vatican II theological training that would have exposed him to all the sources of the faith?  In fact, in theory, neither can be considered inculpable on account of ignorance, since it is a requirement of their duty of state (aka the papal office) to be informed about the faith.  Ignorance doesn't excuse when one is required by his duty of state to know something.

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Cardinal Muller Sides with St. Bellarmine
    « Reply #14 on: November 12, 2023, 03:58:03 PM »
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  • Do you see the word sin anywhere in this Latin or any discussion of culpability?  No, because the terms formal and pertinacious do not have to do per se with culpability.  While in practice there's often an overlap of these various conditions, they're formally distinct terms and cannot be conflated.  Father Kramer falsely injects culpability as the criterion for membership in the Church.  This is false.  Again, take a Protestant who may be inculpable (due to some invincible ignorance) of his heresy.  Is he a member of the Church?  Is he capable of being the Pope?  Of course not.  He's in formal heresy ... regardless of whether he's culpable or not.  Father Kramer makes the same error of injecting culpability and sin into the equations, matters which can only be known ultimately to God in the internal forum.

    Cf. the quote from St. Robert Bellarmine above that we do not judge people to be heretics by reading hearts but simply from their external works (and statements).

    But if one starts speculating about culpability, and it can only be speculation, who would be more culpable, someone like Bergoglio who was educated already in Modernist seminaries or a Ratzinger, who had a classic pre-Vatican II theological training that would have exposed him to all the sources of the faith?  In fact, in theory, neither can be considered inculpable on account of ignorance, since it is a requirement of their duty of state (aka the papal office) to be informed about the faith.  Ignorance doesn't excuse when one is required by his duty of state to know something.

    St. Alphonsus doesn't have to state "sin" or "culpability".  It is understood that he is speaking about the sin of heresy.  After all, the quote comes from his Theologia Moralis (moral theology), which speaks of sin throughout. 

    Here is Fr. Dominic Prummer on the matter in his Handbook of Moral Theology:

    "202. HERESY, considered objectively, is a proposition that contradicts an article of faith; in its subjective and formal aspect heresy is the pertinacious error of a Christian who repudiates some truth of the Catholic faith.  Therefore for formal heresy there is required error in the intellect and pertinacity in the will.....formal heresy is a grave sin which admits of no slight matter since it implies a formal contempt of the truthfulness and authority of God."

    "484. 5......b) Pertinacity is the vice which inclines man to continue in some act beyond that which is reasonable."

    Here is a link to article by John S. Daly in which he states:

    "Moralists, on the other hand, consider pertinacity as the formal constituent of the sin of heresy — the disordered state of the will in adhering to a belief opposed to the Faith. As such, pertinacity never exists except where the heretical belief is imputably sinful."

    Your dissociation of "formal" and "pertinacity" from "sin" or "culpability" seems foreign.  If you insist, then please provide some resource other than your own word.