Author Topic: BXVIs Ecuмenism and "Significant Silence" (Read 3604 times)

stevusmagnus · « **Reply #30 on:** April 01, 2011, 03:56:58 PM »

Quote from: gladius_veritatis

Quote from: stevusmagnus
Not a single solitary soul has EVER interpreted that line to mean what I said? REALLY?

Any evidence to the contrary, from sources remotely acceptable to all present?

Did the SSPX, or Cath Fam News, etc., interpret it that way?

You applied the singular form to a plural meaning. Can you explain this?

First of all, the quote is from the Pontifical Biblical Commission, not from BXVI. And when it was published Cardinal Ratzinger was not even Pope yet! (I should have known better than to take your word for it and not ask for context.)

Furthermore, the Commission itself explains it in the way I did!

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/pcb_docuмents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20020212_popolo-ebraico_en.html

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Insistence on discontinuity between both Testaments and going beyond former perspectives should not, however, lead to a one-sided spiritualisation. What has already been accomplished in Christ must yet be accomplished in us and in the world. The definitive fulfilment will be at the end with the resurrection of the dead, a new heaven and a new earth. Jєωιѕн messianic expectation is not in vain. It can become for us Christians a powerful stimulant to keep alive the eschatological dimension of our faith. Like them, we too live in expectation. The difference is that for us the One who is to come will have the traits of the Jesus who has already come and is already present and active among us.

The Commission is CLEARLY referring to the SECOND COMING. In THAT sense both Catholics and Jєωs are "waiting" for the Messiah.

It is their "clever" attempt to find "common ground" through playing with words. It is assinine, but it is NOT some ridiculous denial of Christ as Messiah, or espousing a belief in the anti-Christ, or whatever other ridiculous tripe you and Raoul try to turn it into to fit your assumed premise that BXVI is not Pope.

Raoul76 · « **Reply #31 on:** April 01, 2011, 04:03:07 PM »

StevusMagnus said:

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WRONG!

This is not at ALL what I'm saying. They are waiting for the coming of the Messiah for the FIRST time. They do not believe Christ is the Messiah.

StevusMagnus then said:

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The Commission is CLEARLY referring to the SECOND COMING. In THAT sense both Catholics and Jєωs are "waiting" for the Messiah.

Yeah, it's real clear when, on the same afternoon, you say the exact opposite of what you had said earlier.

Keep this up and you might get elected the next "Pope"!

stevusmagnus · « **Reply #32 on:** April 01, 2011, 04:03:52 PM »

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Of course, that doesn't change anything, because ultimately, the way you interpret this line, the Jєωs are still waiting for the Second Coming without knowing that's what they're waiting for. That was the fallacy that I attacked in the post you are responding to.

It's the way the Commission MEANT this line. It is not my "interpretation". It is crystal clear from the context.

Yes, the Jєωs are waiting for the Messiah's first arrival while we wait for the second. What is so hard to understand about that?

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Now you're trying to make it look like you never said that Ratzinger said the Jєωs were waiting for the Second Coming, but you did, as I just proved in the quotes above.

First of all, Ratzinger never even said it. Secondly, I said that in reality the Jєωs are waiting for the Second Coming, though they mistakenly believe it will be the first. Regardless they are waiting for the Messiah and it will not be in vain because He will indeed come (just not in the manner they expect).

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The reason you are saying that is because you have no other possible explanation of this line. That is because the real meaning of the line is obvious. So first you grasp at straws, then when that doesn't work, you play with words and create confusion.

Are you going to eat your words now that I've linked to and quoted the line we are referring to and they OBVIOUSLY were referring to the second coming? But yet you say the OBVIOUS meaning is that the Pope denies Christ as the Messiah? If not. you've lost all crediblity.

Raoul76 · « **Reply #33 on:** April 01, 2011, 04:07:46 PM »

StevusMagnus said:

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Has ANYONE (besides you and GV and other Sedes) interpreted that line to mean BXVI doesn't believe Jesus Christ is the Messiah? PLEASE give me one example of anyone in their right mind claiming this.

That is a conclusion logically drawn from the premise. The premise is that, if the Jєωιѕн wait for the Messiah is not in vain, then Christ is not the Messiah, since one does not need to "wait" for Christ. He already came, you see.

What do you think JPII was saying when he said "The Old Covenant has never been revoked"? Why do you think they've turned the h0Ɩ0cαųst into a point of dogma? Why do they visit ѕуηαgσgυєs? Why are they having some kind of faux-Seder in my local Novus Ordo church? Why are rabbis invited to speak at Novus Ordo schools and churches? Why did JPII visit the wailing wall? Etc. etc. etc.

Are you the last one to know these are Judaizers? Yes, many people have taken this sentence to mean that the Church has changed its position on the Jєωs. For instance, the Anti-Defamation League:

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"In November 1980, Pope John Paul II, speaking in Mainz, Germany, affirmed that Jєωs are the people "of the Old Covenant, never revoked by God." He called Jєωs "the present-day people of the covenant concluded with Moses." In 2000, the pontiff stood on Mount Sinai and took note of the moment, stating, "But now on the heights of Sinai, this same God seals His love by making the covenant that He will never renounce."

The Pope's powerful statements helped the nascent Jєωιѕн-Catholic dialogue develop a sense of trust and honesty.

Additional church docuмents and statements deepened the relationship. In 2001, the Pontifical Biblical Commission issued the report "The Jєωιѕн People and Their Sacred Scriptures in the Christian Bible," which talks of the permanent election of the Jєωιѕн people and suggests that its "Jєωιѕн messianic expectation is not in vain." Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI, played an important role in producing this work.

StevusMagnus said:

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"The Pope has repeatedly referred to Christ as the Messiah."

Yes, Modernists mix truth with error. One day they say something orthodox, then the next something that is far from it. Sorry but we have to keep you behind a year, start your studies afresh with Pascendi Domenici Gregis.

StevusMagnus said:

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Your mistake is denying the ambiguity, interpreting it in the worst way possible and then admitting of NO other interpretation, and as proof someone is a heretic.

Your mistake is in thinking that the Catholic Church can be ambiguous on matters of faith and morals. Another mistake is thinking that these men have somehow carefully avoided heresy, that they are too ambiguous to be heretical, when post-VII bulls are riddled with heresies, and when we have heard these men utter heresies with their very lips, not to mention that they are proven Judaizers.

StevusMagnus said:

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Do you really think thousands of pre-VCII Bishops would sign off on VCII docuмents that were clearly and obviously heretical? Of course not! That was the trick and the swindle.

Thousands of "bishops" now go right along with Vatican II, and feel no need to be part of your precious Society, let alone to be sedes. Try to wrap your head around that one, if you want to play the numbers game.

The VII heresies are not as obvious as later ones, such as the Joint Declaration on Justification. But they are in there. I'd say the remaining orthodox bishops at Vatican II simply could not believe what they were seeing, they assumed there must be some other interpretation of certain heresies in the VII docuмents. But the controversy was always there, always swirling, whether you call them heresies or errors, both are impossible from a true Council of the Catholic Church.

StevusMagnus said:

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"You must be on acid. I'm all for trying to convert EVERY SOUL here and now to Jesus Christ."

That's nice, you must be a sophist who can't admit he's wrong, therefore loses badly in debates, and has to resort to name-calling.

What I'm pointing out is that Ratzinger is in no hurry to convert the Jєωs, because both his predescessor said OUTRIGHT that the Jєωs can be saved without Christ, and Ratzinger, by supporting this book of the Biblical Pontifical Commission, more than implies he has the same mindset. Therefore, I drew a connection between his recent piece of trash book and this essay from the Pontifical Biblical Commission, a connection that is very solid.

stevusmagnus · « **Reply #34 on:** April 01, 2011, 04:10:09 PM »

Quote from: Raoul76

StevusMagnus said:
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WRONG!

This is not at ALL what I'm saying. They are waiting for the coming of the Messiah for the FIRST time. They do not believe Christ is the Messiah.

StevusMagnus then said:
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The Commission is CLEARLY referring to the SECOND COMING. In THAT sense both Catholics and Jєωs are "waiting" for the Messiah.

Yeah, it's real clear when, on the same afternoon, you say the exact opposite of what you had said earlier.

Keep this up and you might get elected the next "Pope"!

EXHIBIT A offered as proof that you are either:

1.) Extremely dense.

2.) An idiot.

3.) Have no ability to comprehend English.

4.) Smart enough to understand what I'm saying, but deliberately acting obtuse.

If 1, 2, or 3 are the case. Please re-read my statements slowly until they click.

Or better yet, let me take the bait and break it down for you.

COMMISSION SAYS: We wait for SECOND COMING. Jєωs wait for what THEY THINK is First Coming. We are both waiting for the MESSIAH. They are NOT waiting in vain because the one and only MESSIAH IS COMING. They simply don't realize it will be Jesus Christ coming AGAIN.

Get it? If not, I can't help you. Either give up or take reading comprehension classes.

stevusmagnus · « **Reply #35 on:** April 01, 2011, 04:15:15 PM »

Quote from: Raoul76

StevusMagnus said:
Quote
WRONG!

This is not at ALL what I'm saying. They are waiting for the coming of the Messiah for the FIRST time. They do not believe Christ is the Messiah.

StevusMagnus then said:
Quote
The Commission is CLEARLY referring to the SECOND COMING. In THAT sense both Catholics and Jєωs are "waiting" for the Messiah.

Yeah, it's real clear when, on the same afternoon, you say the exact opposite of what you had said earlier.

Keep this up and you might get elected the next "Pope"!

In the first quote "they" refers to the Jєωs. This is obvious from the context you ripped it out of.

Then again I shouldn't be surprised as you claimed BXVI made this statement when a Commission made the statement before Ratzinger was even Pope!

What else have you got wrong?

Raoul76 · « **Reply #36 on:** April 01, 2011, 04:21:48 PM »

StevusMagnus said:

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Yes, the Jєωs are waiting for the Messiah's first arrival while we wait for the second. What is so hard to understand about that?

So the book is playing a winking joke on the Jєωs, like "You think you're waiting for your Messiah, but what's really gonna happen is that the true Messiah will come down and smite you"? And then Ratzinger later says that we shouldn't try to convert them?

Sheesh, it turns out Ratzinger is like a spiritual Hitler, leading them to their eternal deaths! Who knew? Stevus, you truly are a genius.

The problem is, once again, you're burned, because the book says "the Jєωιѕн Messianic expectation is not in vain." The Jєωιѕн Messianic expectation is not for Christ, is it? Try to read the words carefully -- THEIR expectation for THEIR Messiah, not for a Messiah. Expectation for Christ would be OUR Messianic expectation, capiche? What you are trying to do is blur the two expectations, or to say that the book was blurring them. But it can't be done. They can't be said to expect a Messiah that they don't want and that they have already rejected.

What is so hard for you to understand that proven Judaizers could easily be Satanists and attempting to construct a bridge to anti-Christ? Even if you somehow find a loophole for this statement from the Pontifical Biblical Commission's book, that doesn't change other heresies, as well as many actions and words that clearly point to Judaization.

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #37 on:** April 01, 2011, 04:22:27 PM »

Quote from: stevusmagnus

First of all, the quote is from the Pontifical Biblical Commission, not from BXVI. And when it was published Cardinal Ratzinger was not even Pope yet! (I should have known better than to take your word for it and not ask for context.)

That has nothing to do with it, which is why I pointed out Card. Ratz. could be a public heretic apart from what he has done as 'pontiff'.

FWIW, BXVI was the head of the PBC at the time and prefaced and signed it. No bullsh*t, remember?

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Furthermore, the Commission itself explains it in the way I did!

Is this a point for or against you? IMO, harmony with the enemy is hardly a feather in your cap.

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In THAT sense both Catholics and Jєωs are "waiting" for the Messiah.

THAT is still a singular term, yet you wish to apply it in a plural sense. No dice, amigo.

Forget the Pope issue for a moment, if you can. Do you understand it is impossible to apply singular terms in a way that is also plural?

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #38 on:** April 01, 2011, 04:28:59 PM »

Quote from: stevusmagnus

Then again I shouldn't be surprised as you claimed BXVI made this statement when a Commission made the statement before Ratzinger was even Pope!

Who was the head of the Commission? Uh, that would have been...Card. Ratz!

HeL-Lo-O, McFly

NO ONE is pretending this happened AFTER BXVI usurped the throne! Wake up and smell the Drano, man...

Raoul76 · « **Reply #39 on:** April 01, 2011, 04:31:56 PM »

Deleted; just repeating myself.

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #40 on:** April 01, 2011, 04:33:45 PM »

Quote from: stevusmagnus

3.) Have no ability to comprehend English.

This is a LAUGHER, considering your propensity to apply SINGULAR terms in a way that can ONLY refer to a PLURAL meaning.

I admire your spunk, but you are wasting defending men who are not worthy of your time and energy.

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #41 on:** April 01, 2011, 04:35:44 PM »

Quote from: Raoul76

Catholics do not have "Messianic expectation" for the Second Coming. We don't expect anything, because the Messiah has already come.

Not to discourage you, my friend, but I mentioned this multiple times; it does not seem to have registered.

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #42 on:** April 01, 2011, 04:46:14 PM »

Quote from: stevusmagnus

First of all, the quote is from the Pontifical Biblical Commission, not from BXVI. And when it was published Cardinal Ratzinger was not even Pope yet! (I should have known better than to take your word for it and not ask for context.)

This is going to be embarrassing, but here is the quote from the post wherein this was first mentioned:

Quote from: Raoul, NOT Eamon

The Pontifical Biblical Commission in 2002 released a docuмent about the Jєωs and the Bible, prefaced and signed by then-"Cardinal" Ratzinger, where it said "the Jєωιѕн Messianic expectation is not in vain."

As you can see, I did not even bring it up, nor did Raoul pretend Card. Ratz. was Pope.

HeL-Lo-O, McFly!!!

Look, I can appreciate a little verbal rough-housing, but it is nice when those involved know WTF they are talking about.

stevusmagnus · « **Reply #43 on:** April 01, 2011, 04:48:04 PM »

Quote from: gladius_veritatis

Quote from: Raoul76
Catholics do not have "Messianic expectation" for the Second Coming. We don't expect anything, because the Messiah has already come.

Not to discourage you, my friend, but I mentioned this multiple times; it does not seem to have registered.

Is Jesus Christ the Messiah?

Is He coming in the future?

Put two and two together.

I understand what you are saying. Obviously He is not coming the second time in the same way He came the first time. The Commission is trying to make the lame point that we are both waiting for the Messiah albeit with completely different understandings.

I'm honestly not sure why this is so hard to see as the Commission itself spells it out.

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #44 on:** April 01, 2011, 04:51:33 PM »

Quote from: stevusmagnus

I'm honestly not sure why this is so hard to see as the Commission itself spells it out.

Does the Commission, or the V2 anti-Church in general, make it clear the Jєωs are waiting, for the Messias as foretold in Holy Writ, IN VAIN?

What good is an after-the-fact explanation, however "clear", when the Judaics have been told they are NOT waiting in vain for the Messias (an idea we know they will NOT understand as we do)?

All other nonsense aside, do you agree these statements give the Judaics a rather FALSE understanding of their present situation?