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Author Topic: Boru=Pharisaical "Hebrew thought"  (Read 1056599 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Boru=Pharisaical "Hebrew thought"
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2025, 10:25:13 AM »
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  • People misunderstand "justification" with also removing Original Sin.  No, it does not. 

    Justification (alone) - removes actual sins.
    Justifica
    tion + baptism - removes actual + Original sin.

    When Trent is discussing justification, is it IN RELATION TO BAPTISM. 


    Great Points.  There were many OT Just (aka justified) who were nevertheless still laboring under Original Sin, and yet they were friends of God, pleasing to Him (to the extent possible) ... people like St. John the Baptist, or other OT greats.

    Now, many hold that St. Joseph was freed from Original Sin shortly after his conception.  That is my opinion also.  And yet neither could he enter the Beatific Vision upon his death, since being freed from Original Sin or being a friend of God (looser sense of justification) does not suffice for entry into the Kingom.  And that's precisely where Pelagianism comes in where, if you're not guilty of actual sin, then you deserve the Beatfic Vision, or, even if you were not guilty of Original OR actual sin, since NO ONE IS OWED THAT elevation of our natural state.  God had intended to give that gift to all humanity, but then Adam and Even fell.  Of course, for them, it was in fact actual sin, not just Original.

    That distinction also is what's missed in the Pope Pius IX "invincible ignorance" teaching that's warped by the BoDers.  He clearly said that those who are not guilty of actual sin, God would not allow them to be subject to "poenae" (Latin for punishments, as in positive punishment), since read the BoDer way, you'd have to say that God would not allow anyone not guilty of Original Sin to not be saved (enter Heaven).  That would be to make Pius XI a Pelagian.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Boru=Pharisaical "Hebrew thought"
    « Reply #16 on: October 14, 2025, 10:34:01 AM »
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  • I think that everything is quite clear if one keeps in mind the distinctions made by St. Thomas (and many of the Greek Fathers thought the same way) ...

    Natural Order -- you get punished for actual sin, but also rewarded for exercises of natural virute (at lest in the sense of having this remit the punishment due to the actual sin)

    Supernatural Order -- nobody deserves it, and there's no injustice or "punishment" involved in God not granting this gift to anyone, and it's not contrary to God's Justice or Mercy to deny it

    On the natural order, if you've committed no actual sin, you are not punished, and you can have natural happiness.  If you've committed sin, then the punishement due to it can be mitigated by acts of natural virtue.

    On the supernatural, there's Original Sin, and there's nothing we can do to get that back other that God's free gift of allowing us to receive the Sacrament of Baptism.

    If kept separate in one's mind, there's no issue with people who have committed very little sin not being saved, since it's owed to no one anyway, and the degree of their happiness or unhappiness in Heaven depends upon what they deserve due to their actual choices and acts of free will.

    Reward/Punishment for actual sin happens by our activity -- ex opere operantis
    Supernatural Reward/Punishment happens only by God's free gift via the ex opere operato action of the Sacrament.

    There's no strict overlap between the two except that God might regard someone's natural virtue in terms of deciding whether or not to bestow the gift of Supernatural Reward, but there's no direct correlation, along the lines of the BoDers mentality, "oh, but he was such a good guy, generous, selfless, kind, and he even gave his life to save someone else in a disaster situaiton" ... ergo he deserves the Beatfic Vision.  False.  We do not know how/why God decides such things any more than we know how/why God decides to have someone born into a tribe of Great Thumb worshippers, and another to be born into an extremely devout Catholic family.  There's too much of this second-guessing about what would be "fair" and "unfair" for God to do ... by us pea-brained morons, and it's that attitude that has led to BoD speculation.  "Look, this catechumen was so devout and virutous, and tried so hard, but he died before Baptism ... but then this jackass over here waited til his death bed to be baptized since he wanted to keep living an immoral life, and he got the Sacrament."


    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Boru=Pharisaical "Hebrew thought"
    « Reply #17 on: October 14, 2025, 10:34:50 AM »
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  • Great Points.  There were many OT Just (aka justified) who were nevertheless still laboring under Original Sin, and yet they were friends of God, pleasing to Him (to the extent possible) ... people like St. John the Baptist, or other OT greats.

    Now, many hold that St. Joseph was freed from Original Sin shortly after his conception.  That is my opinion also.  And yet neither could he enter the Beatific Vision upon his death, since being freed from Original Sin or being a friend of God (looser sense of justification) does not suffice for entry into the Kingom.  And that's precisely where Pelagianism comes in where, if you're not guilty of actual sin, then you deserve the Beatfic Vision, or, even if you were not guilty of Original OR actual sin, since NO ONE IS OWED THAT elevation of our natural state.  God had intended to give that gift to all humanity, but then Adam and Even fell.  Of course, for them, it was in fact actual sin, not just Original.

    That distinction also is what's missed in the Pope Pius IX "invincible ignorance" teaching that's warped by the BoDers.  He clearly said that those who are not guilty of actual sin, God would not allow them to be subject to "poenae" (Latin for punishments, as in positive punishment), since read the BoDer way, you'd have to say that God would not allow anyone not guilty of Original Sin to not be saved (enter Heaven).  That would be to make Pius XI a Pelagian.
    Ok, so the formula needs to be adjusted to the following:

    BOD = 1 effect
    a.  removal of actual sins (i.e. justification)
    b.  no removal of Original Sin
    c.  no sacramental character / wedding garment


    Baptism = 3 effects
    a.  removal of actual sins (i.e. justification)
    b.  removal of Original sin
    c.  reception of the sacramental character/ wedding garment.


    Even if one wants to argue that Trent allows BOD to remove all actual sins AND even Original Sin...BOD still doesn't provide the baptismal character/ wedding garment.  And no one gets into heaven without the wedding garment, i.e. the character imprint on the soul, which designates a person as a Child of God.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Boru=Pharisaical "Hebrew thought"
    « Reply #18 on: October 14, 2025, 10:47:18 AM »
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  • Ok, so the formula needs to be adjusted to the following:

    BOD = 1 effect
    a.  removal of actual sins (i.e. justification)
    b.  no removal of Original Sin
    c.  no sacramental character / wedding garment


    Baptism = 3 effects
    a.  removal of actual sins (i.e. justification)
    b.  removal of Original sin
    c.  reception of the sacramental character/ wedding garment.


    Even if one wants to argue that Trent allows BOD to remove all actual sins AND even Original Sin...BOD still doesn't provide the baptismal character/ wedding garment.  And no one gets into heaven without the wedding garment, i.e. the character imprint on the soul, which designates a person as a Child of God.

    Yes, and at some point I need to find the full text of Melchior Cano, the Dominican theologian, to see how he defined the terms, since he referred to justification but not salvation being possible for infidels.

    I do think there can be two kinds of justification, natural justification, and supernatural justification ... and perhaps that's causing some confusion.  I think that someone can be naturally justified without being supernaturally justified, i.e. where you can be in a natural friendship with God without having the infused supernatural virtues.  I believe Original Sin took away the (unmerited) supernatural justification, but then people born with Original Sin alone but who lived in friendship with God (such as quite a few figures in the Old Testament) could have a certain natural justification.  Theologians say the same kind of thing about the theological virutes, that you can have a "natural" faith without the infuseed supernatural virtue, since you need some kind of faith to lead you to the Church before you're even in the Church, and they referred to as "fides initialis" or a preliminary faith that was considered a natura analogue to the supernatural virtue.  I believe the same could be said of justification in general, that there can be a natural analogue to the supernatural justification that puts people into a state of grace.

    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Boru=Pharisaical "Hebrew thought"
    « Reply #19 on: October 14, 2025, 10:48:45 AM »
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  • Ah, more of your disgraceful lying.  …

    You're a bumbling fool, who bumble and stumble from one error to another all because you hate the Church's EENS dogma and are simply looking for reasons to reject it, or to "distinguish" it away so that you can pretend you believe in it by paying lips service to the (for you meaningless) formula.

    You cannot draw conclusions from Confession to Baptism, since they're completely different Sacraments.  In fact, Trent EXPLICITLY states that they are in fact different.  So unless you account for the differences, your "stands to reason" represents yet another epic fail.…

    Post-by-post Boru digs itself ever deeper into pit of hellish illogic and deceit wavering to and fro with whatever mutually contradictory lie seems most convenient at the moment.

    It's. fundamental premise is exposed, so it snipes around the edges, never willing or able to address its fundamental flaw:

    It rejects the Word of God (John 3:5) and the Extraordinary Magisterium of the Councils of Florence and Trent.… and then it promotes its own 'theology' to over-rule God and His Magisterium, thereby exemplifying the тαℓмυdic thought and hypocrisy that it extols and emulates… it claims to be 'tarditional' though it is 'modernist' in its core.

    If it were truly traditional it would accept that "Roma locuta est. Causa finita."  Instead, it keeps struggling like the тαℓмυdic Zaddikim in its incessant struggle to overthrow God Himself.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Boru=Pharisaical "Hebrew thought"
    « Reply #20 on: October 14, 2025, 10:54:31 AM »
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  • People misunderstand "justification" with also removing Original Sin.  No, it does not. 

    Justification (alone) - removes actual sins.
    Justifica
    tion + baptism - removes actual + Original sin.

    When Trent is discussing justification, is it IN RELATION TO BAPTISM. 

    Ok, here is where I disagree with Fr. Feeney when he opined that nothing could prevent God from providing the sacrament to one who is justified, but not yet baptized........
     
    Trent says that since the promulgation of the Gospel, justification cannot be effected without the laver of regeneration i.e. the sacrament of baptism.
    Pope Boniface VIII said that outside of the Church there is no remission of sins, i.e. no justification.
    All those who are not baptized are outside of the Church.
    Therefore, there is no justification at all without baptism.

    Which is to say that if it were possible for one outside of the Church to actually make a perfect act of contrition, because they are not baptized their sins would remain, they would not be justified.

         
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Boru=Pharisaical "Hebrew thought"
    « Reply #21 on: October 14, 2025, 10:58:24 AM »
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  • Theologians say the same kind of thing about the theological virutes, that you can have a "natural" faith without the infused supernatural virtue, since you need some kind of faith to lead you to the Church before you're even in the Church, and they referred to as "fides initialis" or a preliminary faith that was considered a natural analogue to the supernatural virtue. 
    Yes, Trent is very clear when it explains natural faith leading to repentance/contrition, but you only get SUPERNATURAL faith from the sacrament, because no one can merit this, or acquire it, outside of God/Church.

    Quote
    I believe the same could be said of justification in general, that there can be a natural analogue to the supernatural justification that puts people into a state of grace.
    Yes, one can repent of sins, because we all know the natural law.  Therefore anyone (catholic or not) can recognize their sinfulness, and have contrition.  But such cannot be a "perfect act of contrition" because this requires SUPERNATURAL grace of charity which NO ONE can have, outside of the sacraments.

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Boru=Pharisaical "Hebrew thought"
    « Reply #22 on: October 14, 2025, 11:04:16 AM »
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  • Ok, here is where I disagree with Fr. Feeney when he opined that nothing could prevent God from providing the sacrament to one who is justified, but not yet baptized........
     
    Trent says that since the promulgation of the Gospel, justification cannot be effected without the laver of regeneration i.e. the sacrament of baptism.
    Pope Boniface VIII said that outside of the Church there is no remission of sins, i.e. no justification.
    All those who are not baptized are outside of the Church.
    Therefore, there is no justification at all without baptism.

    Which is to say that if it were possible for one outside of the Church to actually make a perfect act of contrition, because they are not baptized their sins would remain, they would not be justified.
    When the Church speaks of justification, it is speaking of SACRAMENTAL/SUPERNATURAL justification. 

    It is not speaking of human contrition for sins, which is a NATURAL justification.  We all know this exists because all humans (of whatever religion) are capable of recognizing sin and repenting.  And God will forgive such sins, on a natural level.  And this NATURAL contrition leads one to being a "naturally good" person.  And as "grace builds on nature" then that naturally good person will be given ACTUAL graces by God, to come to the Church.

    Actual sins can be overcome by actual contrition, leading to an "actually" good person, due to them cooperating with actual graces.

    But SUPERNATURAL sins (i.e. original sin) cannot be overcome by actual grace.  It requires SUPERNATURAL graces, which can only be had by the Church/sacraments.


    This whole BOD debate is also shows a total misunderstanding/corruption of the doctrine of actual vs supernatural graces.


    Offline Croagh Patrick

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    Re: Boru=Pharisaical "Hebrew thought"
    « Reply #23 on: October 14, 2025, 12:21:34 PM »
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  • Would I be correct in thinking that the name is from our legendary warrior and leader Brian Boru?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Boru=Pharisaical "Hebrew thought"
    « Reply #24 on: October 14, 2025, 01:08:57 PM »
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  • When the Church speaks of justification, it is speaking of SACRAMENTAL/SUPERNATURAL justification. 

    It is not speaking of human contrition for sins, which is a NATURAL justification.  We all know this exists because all humans (of whatever religion) are capable of recognizing sin and repenting.  And God will forgive such sins, on a natural level.  And this NATURAL contrition leads one to being a "naturally good" person.  And as "grace builds on nature" then that naturally good person will be given ACTUAL graces by God, to come to the Church.

    Actual sins can be overcome by actual contrition, leading to an "actually" good person, due to them cooperating with actual graces.

    But SUPERNATURAL sins (i.e. original sin) cannot be overcome by actual grace.  It requires SUPERNATURAL graces, which can only be had by the Church/sacraments.


    This whole BOD debate is also shows a total misunderstanding/corruption of the doctrine of actual vs supernatural graces.

    Indeed, this is the conclusion I've come to.  I think that the reason so many push back against EENS is that they think some Jєωιѕн grandmother, who wasn't into any impurity, was kind and generous, and even perhaps gave her life to save her children, that she would end up standing right next to Joe Stalin in that same monolithic boiling cauldron of fire, jockeying for position there against some truly evil people, because she lacked Catholic faith.  And truly that would offend any concept of justice, so people push back against the idea of EENS ... because of this misinterpretation or misunderstanding.  Even one of the EENS definitions states within it that each one is punished according to his own sins.

    But if we can continue and extend the thinking of St. Thomas Aquinas whereby he justified and promoted / taught the notion of Limbo, distinguishing between the natural punishments due to sin (poenae) and the supernatural state of the Beatific Vision, this objection can easily be made to evaporate.

    I personally hold that those who lived in invincible ignorance (say in the Americas before misisonaries), could in fact have arrived after death at something that does in fact approximate their notion of a "Happy Hunting Ground", to the extent that they lived in accordance with the natural law.  But this false dichotomy between ... either you behold the Face of God in the Beatific Vision ... or else you roast in Hell, this false dichotomy has caused the massive pushback against EENS dogma.

    Now, these must be taken with a huge grain of salt, but in a lot of those NDEs (Near Death Experiences), people die and go to a place that seems happy, see their relatives, etc. ... but then often report that there's some kind of gate or barrier (like the old stories of the pearly gates) that they can't get past.  In the story of the one native girl who was raised back to life and baptized by St. Peter Claver, she reported that she went to a certain point but could go no further due to lacking the wedding gown.  So, by all acounts, she was a virtuous girl, went to Mass and Communion daily, etc ... but evidently her Baptism had been invalid.  Certainly someone like that would have been a candidate for the so-called BoD, no?

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Boru=Pharisaical "Hebrew thought"
    « Reply #25 on: October 14, 2025, 01:40:55 PM »
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  • Indeed, this is the conclusion I've come to. 
    If you re-read Trent, it explains the difference between natural Faith and supernatural.  Between natural contrition and supernatural love of God (i.e. charity).

    It is a doctrine that no man can come to God, in heaven, unless he have faith, hope, charity - the 3 supernatural virtues.
    It is a doctrine that no man can attain such 3 virtues (on a supernatural level) unless God give them, as a gift.
    It is a doctrine that no man can get them, except from the Church, thru the sacraments.


    Quote
    I personally hold that those who lived in invincible ignorance (say in the Americas before misisonaries), could in fact have arrived after death at something that does in fact approximate their notion of a "Happy Hunting Ground", to the extent that they lived in accordance with the natural law. 
    And the number of indians who lived according to the natural law is as small as the number of good catholics who are saved.  Very small.  Most indian cultures practiced witchcraft, had slavery, were cannibals, practiced human sacrifice and were commonly involved in war and murder of other tribes.  Not to mention theft, multiple wives, etc, etc (i.e. normal immoral sins).  The idea that indians were "innocent natives" is NOT TRUE.

    Quote
    But this false dichotomy between ... either you behold the Face of God in the Beatific Vision ... or else you roast in Hell, this false dichotomy has caused the massive pushback against EENS dogma.
    Right, there is a middle ground.  Even Christ says so in Scripture.

    He who believes AND is baptized, is saved.  He who believes not, is condemned. (Mark 16:16)

    Missing group of people = He who believes only, but no baptism = ??


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Boru=Pharisaical "Hebrew thought"
    « Reply #26 on: October 14, 2025, 02:12:36 PM »
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  • Indeed, this is the conclusion I've come to.  I think that the reason so many push back against EENS is that they think some Jєωιѕн grandmother, who wasn't into any impurity, was kind and generous, and even perhaps gave her life to save her children, that she would end up standing right next to Joe Stalin in that same monolithic boiling cauldron of fire, jockeying for position there against some truly evil people, because she lacked Catholic faith.  And truly that would offend any concept of justice, so people push back against the idea of EENS ... because of this misinterpretation or misunderstanding.  Even one of the EENS definitions states within it that each one is punished according to his own sins.

    But if we can continue and extend the thinking of St. Thomas Aquinas whereby he justified and promoted / taught the notion of Limbo, distinguishing between the natural punishments due to sin (poenae) and the supernatural state of the Beatific Vision, this objection can easily be made to evaporate.

    I personally hold that those who lived in invincible ignorance (say in the Americas before misisonaries), could in fact have arrived after death at something that does in fact approximate their notion of a "Happy Hunting Ground", to the extent that they lived in accordance with the natural law.  But this false dichotomy between ... either you behold the Face of God in the Beatific Vision ... or else you roast in Hell, this false dichotomy has caused the massive pushback against EENS dogma.

    Now, these must be taken with a huge grain of salt, but in a lot of those NDEs (Near Death Experiences), people die and go to a place that seems happy, see their relatives, etc. ... but then often report that there's some kind of gate or barrier (like the old stories of the pearly gates) that they can't get past.  In the story of the one native girl who was raised back to life and baptized by St. Peter Claver, she reported that she went to a certain point but could go no further due to lacking the wedding gown.  So, by all acounts, she was a virtuous girl, went to Mass and Communion daily, etc ... but evidently her Baptism had been invalid.  Certainly someone like that would have been a candidate for the so-called BoD, no?
    In the book Gate of Heaven (attached), in Chapter 5 Sr. Catherine has a chapter about the "ignorant Native" which applies to everyone outside of the Church, including the Jєωιѕн Grandmother. To sum it up, she shows how the faith was known all over the entire world by the time of the death of the last Apostle:
    Quote
    "....We know, then, that long ago the Faith was held and lost, in these lands where it had flourished so gloriously. Now, loss of Faith is always culpable. It is always man’s fault, that is, when he has lost his God-given gift of Faith.  That is the clear teaching of the Church. It is by man’s sins — whether of neglect, sloth, indifference, worldliness, selfishness, vice — that he no longer believes.
    And — and this is the significant fact with regard to the native — the sins of the fathers are visited upon their sons...."  


     
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Boru=Pharisaical "Hebrew thought"
    « Reply #27 on: Yesterday at 12:48:24 AM »
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  • God says "water" is necessary. Boru says water is not necessary.

    To contradict and over-rule God is тαℓмυdic.


    The Koliner rebbe [17th century rabbi of Prague] states: “Our Zaddikim’s (famous Orthodox rabbis) words are more important than the Torah of Moses As our Sages teach: A Zaddik decrees, and God obeys.”
    Jeremy Dauber, Antonio’s Devils: Writers of the Jєωιѕн Enlightenment and the Birth of Modern Hebrew and Yiddish Literature, Stanford University, 2004, ISBN-13: 978-0804749015, p. 276, also docuмented in Judaism Discovered, p. 298

    “... The rabbi constituted the projection of the divine on earth. Honor was due him more than to the scroll of the Torah, for through his learning and logic he might alter the very content of Mosaic revelation. He was Torah, not merely because he lived by it, but because at his best he constituted as compelling an embodiment of the heavenly model as did a Torah scroll itself.”
    Rabbi Jacob Neusner, “The Phenomenon of the Rabbi in Late Antiquity: II The Ritual of ‘Being a Rabbi’ in Later Sasanian Babylonia,” Numen, Vol.17, Fasc. 1., Feb., 1970, pp.3-4

    God smiled and said: ‘My sons have defeated Me, My sons have defeated Me!’ God’s sons ‘defeated him’ with their arguments. Rabbi Yehoshua was correct in his contention that a view confirmed by majority vote must be accepted, even where God Himself holds the opposite view.”
    Babylonian тαℓмυd, Tractate Bava Metzia 59b, Steinsaltz Edition [NY: Random House 1990], Vol. III p.237

    “The [Pharisaic-Rabbinic] schools believed that in heaven God and the angels studied Torah [i.e., тαℓмυd/Kabbalah] just as the rabbis did on earth. God donned phylacteries like a rabbi. He prayed in rabbinic mode ... He guided the affairs of the world according to the rules of the Torah, like the rabbi in his court. One exegesis of the Creation-legend taught that God had looked into the Torah and therefrom had created the world. Moreover, heaven was aware above of what the rabbis in particular thought, said, and did below. The myth of the Torah was multi-dimensional. It included the striking detail that whenever the most recent rabbi was destined to discover through proper exegesis of the tradition was as much of a part of the way revealed to Moses as was a sentence of Scripture itself. It was therefore possible to participate in the giving of the law, as it were, by appropriate, logical inquiry into the law. God himself, studying and living by Torah, was believed to subject himself to these same rules of logical inquiry, so if an earthly court overruled the testimony, delivered through some natural miracles, of the heavenly one, God would rejoice, crying out, ‘My sons have conquered me! My sons have conquered me!’
    Rabbi Jacob Neusner, “The Phenomenon of the Rabbi in Late Antiquity: II The Ritual of ‘Being a Rabbi’ in Later Sasanian Babylonia,” Numen, Vol.17, Fasc. 1., Feb., 1970, pp.3-4


    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Boru=Pharisaical "Hebrew thought"
    « Reply #28 on: Yesterday at 11:57:38 AM »
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  • Who's the modernist?
    You are the тαℓмυdic modernist.


    Think about it carefully. "few are saved" Matthew 22:14, Luke 13:23).

    I struggle for my own salvation with "fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12).

    Meanwhile, using тαℓмυdic pilpul, you and the other sentimentalists over-rule God even though He "holds the opposite view" (John 3:5) and …Voila!… no more "fear and trembling"… no more "few are saved"… and water Baptism is optional.

    Why do you let sentimentality question God's Word? …and shake your Faith in His Divine Mercy, Justice, and Providence?

    While explicitly questioning the Truth of God's Word (John 3:5), you and the other the sentimentalists implicitly deny God's Mercy, Justice, and Providence.

    Why don't you believe and trust God?

    Why do you deny His Word (John 3:5), His Mercy, His Justice, His Providence?

    Why do you deny His Extraordinary Magisterium (Councils of Florence and Trent)?

    Why do you never address these fundamentals questions, even though you have been asked repeatedly?

    Why did you choose the name of someone canonized by Wojtyla the Worst?

    ANSWER: You are the тαℓмυdic modernist.





    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Boru=Pharisaical "Hebrew thought"
    « Reply #29 on: Yesterday at 10:30:10 PM »
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  • If I remain "obstinate" in my beliefs…

    Yes…obstinate in opposing God Himself.


    Quote
    Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
    John 3:5


    You deny His Word, His Divine Providence, His Omniscience, His Mercy, and His Justice… and then you bray that you follow… men.


    Quote

    But Peter and the apostles answering, said:
    We ought to obey God, rather than men. Acts 5:29


    Meanwhile you slither away.