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Offline Jaynek

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Bishop Williamson on Jews
« on: February 28, 2019, 07:51:28 AM »
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  • I have been trying to research this topic and finding it quite frustrating.  The vast majority of search results are too inaccurate and hostile to be of any use and there are so many of them that they bury what would be useful.

    I have a couple of specific questions, but am also interested in related information.  I have found this quote on Cathinfo:

    Quote
    "There have always been jews that have converted (to the Catholic faith) and if they have really converted, they make magnificent Catholics. Because as St. Paul says in the Epistle to the Romans, the religion of God is in their bloodstreams. And when a jew truly rediscovers the Catholic Faith, He's coming home in a way that no gentile is coming home. He's coming back to Our Lord, and the Apostles and Our Lady who were all Jewish. The Catholic faith was founded by Jews. And when jews come back to it, they're coming home. ... A gentile can never be at home in the Catholic faith in the same way that a real Jewish convert can be."
    This is attributed to "Bishop Williamson 2003" with no further information about its source.  I would like to see it in context (or if he even said it at all - I have my doubts about it).  Does anyone know where it came from or have suggestions how I can find out?

    I am also interested in seeing him expand on this comment from his 2009 Der Spiegel interview, especially the part I have bolded:


    Quote
    Anti-Semitism means many things today, for instance, when one criticizes the Israeli actions in the Gaza Strip. The Church has always understood the definition of anti-Semitism to be the rejection of Jews because of their Jewish roots. This is condemned by the Church. Incidentally, this is self-evident in a religion whose founders and all important individuals in its early history were Jews. But it was also clear, because of the large number of Jewish Christians in early Christianity, that all men need Christ for their salvation -- all men, including the Jews.
    http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/spiegel-interview-with-bishop-richard-williamson-i-will-not-travel-to-auschwitz-a-606323.html

    I am looking more for his theological perspective on Jews in general rather than his specific views on the "Holocaust" narrative which I am already familiar with.

    Thanks for any help you can provide.

    Offline phagocytosis

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    Re: Bishop Williamson on Jews
    « Reply #1 on: February 28, 2019, 10:08:39 AM »
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  • Dear Jaynek, the Lion of Wimbledon goes into detail about the Jews in this interview captured in the following videos:

    Part One


    Part Two
    "Be progressive, vote for policies that reduce you to a minority and slowly erode your heritage and culture - NO THANKS!" - Dr. David Duke


    Offline Meg

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    Re: Bishop Williamson on Jews
    « Reply #2 on: February 28, 2019, 10:12:04 AM »
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  • I have been trying to research this topic and finding it quite frustrating.  The vast majority of search results are too inaccurate and hostile to be of any use and there are so many of them that they bury what would be useful.

    I have a couple of specific questions, but am also interested in related information.  I have found this quote on Cathinfo:
    This is attributed to "Bishop Williamson 2003" with no further information about its source.  I would like to see it in context (or if he even said it at all - I have my doubts about it).  Does anyone know where it came from or have suggestions how I can find out?

    I am also interested in seeing him expand on this comment from his 2009 Der Spiegel interview, especially the part I have bolded:

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/spiegel-interview-with-bishop-richard-williamson-i-will-not-travel-to-auschwitz-a-606323.html

    I am looking more for his theological perspective on Jews in general rather than his specific views on the "Holocaust" narrative which I am already familiar with.

    Thanks for any help you can provide.

    For what purpose are you doing research on +W's theological perspective (in general) on Jews?  

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Bishop Williamson on Jews
    « Reply #3 on: February 28, 2019, 11:04:40 AM »
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  • Dear Jaynek, the Lion of Wimbledon goes into detail about the Jews in this interview captured in the following videos:
    Thank you.  These were very helpful.  The first video, starting at around 23 minutes, focused on this issue and there were further references in the second video.  This gave me a lot of good information.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Bishop Williamson on Jews
    « Reply #4 on: February 28, 2019, 11:13:16 AM »
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  • For what purpose are you doing research on +W's theological perspective (in general) on Jews?  
    I consider him a good source for learning about the traditional Catholic view.  More specifically I am wondering about the morality of continually claiming that a Catholic convert from Judaism is not a genuine convert, in spite of the lack of evidence for this claim.  But, to understand that question, I want a better grasp of traditional teaching on Jews in general to give me the necessary context.


    Offline phagocytosis

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    Re: Bishop Williamson on Jews
    « Reply #5 on: February 28, 2019, 11:17:24 AM »
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  • Thank you.  These were very helpful.  The first video, starting at around 23 minutes, focused on this issue and there were further references in the second video.  This gave me a lot of good information.

    You're welcome. I saw this interview a year or more ago, and I remember he touched on important issues about the Jews, but I couldn't remember exactly when in the videos, otherwise, I would have made it easier for you by referencing the starting point. Anyway, the whole interview is still edifying. I'm glad it's useful.
    "Be progressive, vote for policies that reduce you to a minority and slowly erode your heritage and culture - NO THANKS!" - Dr. David Duke

    Offline Vintagewife3

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    Re: Bishop Williamson on Jews
    « Reply #6 on: February 28, 2019, 11:52:28 AM »
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  • I consider him a good source for learning about the traditional Catholic view.  More specifically I am wondering about the morality of continually claiming that a Catholic convert from Judaism is not a genuine convert, in spite of the lack of evidence for this claim.  But, to understand that question, I want a better grasp of traditional teaching on Jews in general to give me the necessary context.
    Personally, I do not find it appropriate that we challenge anyone’s conversion. That’s between them, and God. So, I’m glad you are researching it :) 

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Bishop Williamson on Jews
    « Reply #7 on: February 28, 2019, 12:13:12 PM »
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  • Personally, I do not find it appropriate that we challenge anyone’s conversion. That’s between them, and God. So, I’m glad you are researching it :)
    Historically, Catholics did not consider this as a private matter.  There was period when there were a lot of false conversions and this was considered a serious problem.  One of the roles of the Inquisition was to investigate accusations of false conversions.  In theory, this allowed trained, impartial experts deal with the matter rather than leave it to mobs or personal vendettas.  

    I think this shows the serious and public nature of false conversions, but it was such a different situation from our own that it hard to see exactly how applies to us.


    Offline Vintagewife3

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    Re: Bishop Williamson on Jews
    « Reply #8 on: February 28, 2019, 12:21:09 PM »
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  • Historically, Catholics did not consider this as a private matter.  There was period when there were a lot of false conversions and this was considered a serious problem.  One of the roles of the Inquisition was to investigate accusations of false conversions.  In theory, this allowed trained, impartial experts deal with the matter rather than leave it to mobs or personal vendettas.  

    I think this shows the serious and public nature of false conversions, but it was such a different situation from our own that it hard to see exactly how applies to us.
    That makes sense, but I just wonder about people doing it in these times... trad Catholics tend to be their own judges instead of looking to the church for help/answers on this matter

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Bishop Williamson on Jews
    « Reply #9 on: February 28, 2019, 03:41:36 PM »
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  • That makes sense, but I just wonder about people doing it in these times... trad Catholics tend to be their own judges instead of looking to the church for help/answers on this matter
    A lot of the time this is not due to any flaw in trads but simply reflects the nature of the current Crisis in the Church.  We may be forced to judge for ourselves when Church structures and institutions are unavailable or ineffective.

    Thinking about what I would do if I had reason to believe that a fellow forum member were a false convert, I don't see how I could turn to the Church for help.  But if this person were clearly teaching error, I would feel a sense of responsibility to do something.  Since there is no longer an Inquisition to report such things to, most likely I would report it to the moderator.

    Offline Vintagewife3

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    Re: Bishop Williamson on Jews
    « Reply #10 on: February 28, 2019, 04:01:30 PM »
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  • There does seem to be more of a stigma to Jews converted to Catholic than any other religion...



    Offline LongHaired CountryBoy

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    Re: Bishop Williamson on Jews
    « Reply #11 on: March 12, 2019, 12:10:25 AM »
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  • There does seem to be more of a stigma to Jews converted to Catholic than any other religion...

    "With troubled heart, We are reminded that many of those converted from the error of Jewish blindness to the light of the Christian Faith have fallen back into their former falsehood. Proceed with intensity against all who make themselves guilty of this crime, against heretics, and against those who support, protect, and defend them." ~ Pope Nicholas IV (the Bull, "With Troubled Heart," PAC, cf. p.659).
    the Jews, who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and have persecuted us, and please not God, and are adversaries to all men.
    ~ 1 Thessalonians 2:14-15

    I knew in my faith that the Jews were accursed and condemned without end, except those who were converted. ~ Bl. Juliana of Norwich

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bishop Williamson on Jews
    « Reply #12 on: March 12, 2019, 08:27:27 AM »
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  • This is attributed to "Bishop Williamson 2003" with no further information about its source.  I would like to see it in context (or if he even said it at all - I have my doubts about it).  

    Well, I hope he did not actually say the following (from your citation):
    Quote
    A gentile can never be at home in the Catholic faith in the same way that a real Jewish convert can be.

    Offline roscoe

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    Re: Bishop Williamson on Jews
    « Reply #13 on: March 12, 2019, 02:22:19 PM »
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  • Bp Williamson is true Pope by Acclimation (like Hildebrand) at this time IMHO... I highly doubt that he made the above comments... :cheers:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

     

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