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Traditional Catholic Faith => Fighting Errors in the Modern World => Topic started by: Geremia on May 12, 2019, 05:44:30 PM
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I've heard many definitions of feminism. The ideology of
- misandry (hatred of men)
- women wanting to be like men
- misogamy (hatred of marriage)
- hatred of motherhood and fatherhood
- advocating socioeconomic equality of the sexes
I don't see what's wrong with #2, since men are the more perfect sex and everyone, including women, must strive for perfection. St. Thérèse of Lisieux, for example, had a very manly spirituality, even desiring to be a priest, which she knew is only for men.
#5 comes closer to the best definition, but it's not broad enough.
But recently I heard feminism defined as the ideology of not thinking there is a difference between males and females. This seems to be the essence of feminism.
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God created male and female.
The enemy sows confusion: gender bending, having to take children into a gender neutral bathroom, public schools teaching children they can choose their gender -- this is all a well-planned attack on God's plan for children to be raised by a nurturing mother and a father who protects and provides.
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But recently I heard feminism defined as the ideology of not thinking there is a difference between males and females. This seems to be the essence of feminism.
Geremia, great thoughts you bring up. Yes, I think the above definition would be the fundamental/philosophical error for why feminism is adopted. Feminism, as it flows from the above error, logically leads to the practical/real-life/social errors which you named:
- misandry (hatred of men)
- women wanting to be like men
- misogamy (hatred of marriage)
- hatred of motherhood and fatherhood
- advocating socioeconomic equality of the sexes
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Great topic. And this applies even to Traditional Catholics, because the feminist error has infected all of us. I heard it said recently, and correctly: "Men and women are not equal; they are are complimentary." This simple sentences reinforces the truth that 1) men and women are both talented and necessary to society but 2) created by God for different duties in life.
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Put simply. Feminism is an ideology based on the sinful rejection of Gods design for women, their place in a Godly society based on the family and all the tenants of Godly womanhood.
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In practice, feminism is one of the manifestations of cultural marxism and identity politics. Men are the oppressor class (and automatically bad) while women are the oppressed class (and automatically good). It may frame itself as socioeconomic equality between the sexes, but it is not equality at all. It is about punishing men for being "privileged".
Feminists might or might not recognize the differences between men and women, depending on how it supports their victimhood narrative. For example, they talk about "women's way of knowing" and complain about how it is not valued as men's is. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_Ways_of_Knowing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_Ways_of_Knowing)
Like all cultural marxism, it is unjust and evil. Also, the vast majority of feminist claims are simply false.
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You are correct, Jaynek, in that you are describing the EFFECTS of feminism in our marxist culture. But just like the CAUSE of communism is the freemasonic lie that "all men are created equal", so the lie that "men and women are equal" is the CAUSE of feminism...as Geremia pointed out. It's important to separate cause vs effect.
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You are correct, Jaynek, in that you are describing the EFFECTS of feminism in our marxist culture. But just like the CAUSE of communism is the freemasonic lie that "all men are created equal", so the lie that "men and women are equal" is the CAUSE of feminism...as Geremia pointed out. It's important to separate cause vs effect.
I agree that most feminists will say that men and women are equal and claim to want equality. And this is wrong for exactly the reasons you say.
But they do not actually believe it themselves. We can see from their actions that they think that women are superior to men and that men are bad and should be punished.
The false ideas about equality may the theoretical basis for feminism, but I am not sure we can call them the CAUSE, when this is not what they really believe.
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Indeed.
Feminists don't want equality. They already have that, and more so!
What they want is a relationship between men and women similar to whites and blacks in 1850 -- men being the blacks, of course.
They want preferential treatment, and complete victimization of men.
But the funny thing is, women already have complete "equal rights" today, and have for many years. In fact, things have *already* skewed in favor of the women. A woman would always get hired over a man with the same qualifications. And let's not talk about who comes out ahead in divorce court, who gets child custody, etc.
What more do they want?
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What more do they want?
Women who have been influenced by feminism (virtually all of us) do not know what they want. They condemn "toxic masculinity" while still being instinctively drawn to male strength.
Feminism leaves women confused and miserable.
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What more do they want?
I think feminists want all unattractive men to be reduced to slavery while all the women share the small minority of beautiful men for sex and to bear their children while the unattractive male slaves work to pay for everyone. Alternatively, I think some feminists would prefer the ugly men to be killed if technology makes the slavery of the ugly men unnecessary.
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The false ideas about equality may the theoretical basis for feminism, but I am not sure we can call them the CAUSE, when this is not what they really believe.
True, rabid feminists want women to rule society. I agree. But they are only now being able to achieve this dream BECAUSE OF the false notion that men/women are equal. This is the lynchpin to the errors of the day.
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Just like communism lied about "all men being equal", which led to govt socialism, which led to communism and the destructive END of some men being "more equal" than others (i.e. communists overthrowing the russian monarchy and setting up a godless dictatorship).
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The point is, that nature abhors a vacuum. Feminism was created to take away the power/control of men in society so that the NWO could gain economic/political control. Once you put men and women on an "equal" playing field in society, then there is a power vacuum. And, logically, if men and women are equal, then why is it wrong for women to want to be in control and try to "fix" society's problems (that men created)? But those women of this revolutionary spirit are few. Most women are just following along, not knowing that this feminist movement will end in destruction, death and chaos (just like communism did). But you could never get to this point unless you first believed that both sexes were equal.
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And to fix the problem, you can't just let the "equal playing field" exist (i.e. get rid of the revolutionary feminists but let the "non violent" feminists continue). No, the only way to destroy feminism is to re-assert the truth that men and women are complimentary, not equal. Then Godly order will return (at least in this area).
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Feminism = a young girl or woman of the world who is not married, or will be divorced many times, or marry a wimp, and never learn anything about life.
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I was down thumbed by a feminist!
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True, rabid feminists want women to rule society. I agree. But they are only now being able to achieve this dream BECAUSE OF the false notion that men/women are equal. This is the lynchpin to the errors of the day.
Yes, I see what you're saying. Without the "Enlightenment" idea of equality, feminist lip service to equality could not have been effective. We would not have all these people claiming that feminism is good because it promotes it equality.
It is not surprising, since most errors of our time can be traced to the falsely named "Enlightenment". It, in turn, can be traced back to the Protestant "Reformation". When we study history we can see that all these evils are connected.
And to fix the problem, you can't just let the "equal playing field" exist (i.e. get rid of the revolutionary feminists but let the "non violent" feminists continue). No, the only way to destroy feminism is to re-assert the truth that men and women are complimentary, not equal. Then Godly order will return (at least in this area).
Yes, as in so many areas, simply following Church teaching would solve the problem.
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It is not surprising, since most errors of our time can be traced to the falsely named "Enlightenment". It, in turn, can be traced back to the Protestant "Reformation". When we study history we can see that all these evils are connected.
Totally agree. And to introduce a slight tangent, when you view Ven. Bartholomew Holzhauser's writings on the "7 ages of the Church", it's easy to see that we are living in the 5th age (and, thankfully, the tail-end of it). The beginning of the 5th age, in my opinion, would've been 1517 and the Protestant Revolt, which as you correctly point out, was the end of the catholic-high point of the Middle Ages and the beginning of the Church's problems, which continue to effect us even today.
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But I do firmly believe that feminism and all other "isms" are beginning to lose steam. People are waking up to the fact that they are empty promises. It is always the NWO's plan to take everything to the extreme, so that when the current solution then becomes a problem, a new solution is introduced (which is just as bad as the former solution, but in a different way. When this newest solution is taken to the point of extreme, then solution #3 is proposed, and taken to the extreme, etc). All of these "solutions/problems/solutions" just further the plan towards the ultimate anti-christ society. And people don't see it unless they study history...which most do not (and even if they do, they study false history, not through the lense of catholicism).
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Yet, I believe Our Lady will "upset the apple cart" of the globalists/satanists soon. You can see it slowly happening in many countries, but still, most people think that things can turn around through human/political means. Not gonna happen. She will let things continue to accelerate, so that people will "wake up" from the atheist/communist indoctrination and see that the "solutions" offered do not work. Some won't wake up until rioting/social chaos hits their front door. Let's pray that it does not take a life-and-death situation for society to turn to God. I'm afraid it will.
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men and women are complimentary, not equal.
Very good quote that says it all, thanks.
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Agree. I stole that from some YT video. It's very short and to the point.
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It's not just about equality, since in some respects they should receive equal treatment ... and, as Matthew points out, they have already achieved that and then some.
It's about the refusal of subjection to men. It's Lucifer's non serviam.
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It's not just about equality, since in some respects they should receive equal treatment ... and, as Matthew points out, they have already achieved that and then some.
It's about the refusal of subjection to men. It's Lucifer's non serviam.
Women are equal to men in the sense that their souls are equally precious to God, giving them equal dignity as human beings.
But what is commonly understood by equality is that men and women are the same or that there is no basis for the husband to have authority over the wife. This meaning of equality is the problem.
It is so true that there is a widespread refusal of subjection to men. Even on trad forums, I've seen women (and men!) who reject that a wife has an obligation to obey her husband.
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Women are equal to men in the sense that their souls are equally precious to God, giving them equal dignity as human beings.
But what is commonly understood by equality is that men and women are the same or that there is no basis for the husband to have authority over the wife. This meaning of equality is the problem.
It is so true that there is a widespread refusal of subjection to men. Even on trad forums, I've seen women (and men!) who reject that a wife has an obligation to obey her husband.
All absolutely true. As a central point, feminists believe that women are the same (or better) than men and don't recognise either that we are different or that the roles for which God designed men and women place them in different positions in the family and therefore in society. In fact they barely recognise the existence of the family as a unit, seeing it and everything which goes with it, especially motherhood, as simply a means of oppressing women. In particular they reject the submission of husband and wife to God (especially in terms of fertility) and of a wife to her husband as head of the family. In doing so they reject any semblance of moral responsibility applied to women (though strangely not men) and every tannate of femininity.
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In fact they barely recognise the existence of the family as a unit, seeing it and everything which goes with it, especially motherhood, as simply a means of oppressing women. In particular they reject the submission of husband and wife to God (especially in terms of fertility) and of a wife to her husband as head of the family.
That is why
Feminism = a young girl or woman of the world who is not married, or will be divorced many times, or marry a wimp, and never learn anything about life.
Notice that all feminists are single, or divorced and re-married many times, or married to a wimp. (P.S- That does not mean that all single women are feminists)
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Women are equal to men in the sense that their souls are equally precious to God, giving them equal dignity as human beings.
This is so obviously true that it need not be said. The fact that you typed this shows you (and most women) have been programmed to view men as oppressive or that your gender is under attack (and if not attacked by men, then by whom? Consciously, you will say that men are not the problem, but subconsciously, you've been tricked to think they are).
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This is not your fault that you have been programmed (we've all been programmed to some degree, on various issues, by the NWO/media/etc), but it shows the subtle agenda and psychological warfare that society is up against and which is out to destroy the beauty of femininity.
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This is so obviously true that it need not be said. The fact that you typed this shows you (and most women) have been programmed to view men as oppressive or that your gender is under attack (and if not attacked by men, then by whom? Consciously, you will say that men are not the problem, but subconsciously, you've been tricked to think they are).
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This is not your fault that you have been programmed (we've all been programmed to some degree, on various issues, by the NWO/media/etc), but it shows the subtle agenda and psychological warfare that society is up against and which is out to destroy the beauty of femininity.
That's reading an awful lot into my statement, especially since you acknowledge it is true. You are telling me that I think the opposite of what I actually think. For the record, I think that, in general, men are not oppressive and are the natural protectors of women. Since the man I interact with the most, my husband, is extremely good and kind, that is how I tend to think of men, both consciously and unconsciously. In all my time here, I never written anything about men being oppressive. On the contrary, I regularly object to others writing such things.
I mentioned the sense in which it is correct to speak of men and women being equal in order to contrast it with the sense in which it is incorrect to say they are equal. I thought it needed to be said because it can be confusing when something is true in one sense but false in another, so I wanted to clarify it. It probably is true that women are programmed to think of men as oppressive, but that has nothing to do with why I wrote what I did.
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The best definition of feminism is placing women above God and corrupting & inverting the natural order in the process.
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It probably is true that women are programmed to think of men as oppressive, but that has nothing to do with why I wrote what I did.
We are ALL programmed to think that men are toxic; it's been going on for 100 years, at least. And if you're programmed, how is that sentence you wrote not affected by such programming? The sooner you get "red pilled", the quicker you can de-program yourself.
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Another example: We're all so programmed by Protestant and atheistic thinking. So when someone asks a question about "why did God create hell?", most of us would respond by saying: "First of all, let's remember that God is all good..." This is such a basic idea that it goes without saying, yet we are all programmed to think of hell as being "bad", therefore how can God send someone to a "bad" place? It just goes to show that our thoughts on God's mercy are overblown and thoughts on His justice are minimized (which is Protestantism in a nutshell).
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So it is with feminism. It's gotten to the point where we all have been so conditioned to accept that men are wrong, or that women are mistreated, that we have to "justify" any rightful and normal placing of women in a secondary role, by reminding everyone that God loves women just as much as men. ...But what does this have to do with social order and with men being in charge of the family? Nothing. But it's a natural, pre-programmed response to the subconscious/irrational/evil idea that our society has been spewing for a 100 years that men have enslaved women.
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So it is with feminism. It's gotten to the point where we all have been so conditioned to accept that men are wrong, or that women are mistreated, that we have to "justify" any rightful and normal placing of women in a secondary role, by reminding everyone that God loves women just as much as men.
But that is not what I was doing. Don't you think it is possible that I have a better idea of what I was thinking than you do?
However, if you really do have the ability to read my mind, it will save me a lot of time. I won't need to bother writing posts any more, since you can just tell everyone what I think. 8)
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I mentioned the sense in which it is correct to speak of men and women being equal in order to contrast it with the sense in which it is incorrect to say they are equal.
The fact that you HAD to point out that men and women are equal in some capacity, shows that we are ALL programmed to view gender in a non-catholic way. The fact that it is important to highlight equality shows that subversion is part of ALL of our mindsets. It has NEVER been normal to view the sexes as equal, until our modern times. That's because we've been programmed to think that inequality is bad; whereas inequality just means different, which is neither good nor bad.
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Please don't take this personally. I'm only pointing this out with you because you are a clear thinker and can understand this type of analysis.
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The fact that you HAD to point out that men and women are equal in some capacity, shows that we are ALL programmed to view gender in a non-catholic way. The fact that it is important to highlight equality shows that subversion is part of ALL of our mindsets. It has NEVER been normal to view the sexes as equal, until our modern times. That's because we've been programmed to think that inequality is bad; whereas inequality just means different, which is neither good nor bad.
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Please don't take this personally. I'm only pointing this out with you because you are a clear thinker and can understand this type of analysis.
I was not "pointing it out" but following up on a comment by Ladislaus that in some respects men and women are equal. I was showing how that was true at the same time as other comments in the thread about men and women not being equal were also true.
It is useful when a word is being used in two different senses to explicitly state what those senses are in order to avoid confusion. This is why I made a statement about the sense in which men and women are equal followed by another statement about the sense in which they are not equal.
I agree with your generalizations about how we Catholics can be influenced by the non-Catholic ideas around us. But my post that you quoted was not an example of this phenomenon. I do take personally that you refuse to accept that I know what I was thinking when I wrote my post.
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I agree with your generalizations about how we Catholics can be influenced by the non-Catholic ideas around us.
It's more than an influence; it's psychological, subconscious, programming/brainwashing. We're all infected.
But my post that you quoted was not an example of this phenomenon.
How do you know it wasn't, just slightly? That's the point of subconscious programming - to change people's thinking without them knowing it.
I do take personally that you refuse to accept that I know what I was thinking when I wrote my post.
Yes, I get what you were saying in this particular thread. I was taking your comment out of context and making a larger point, which applies to all of us. Sorry if you didn't get that.
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Yes, I get what you were saying in this particular thread. I was taking your comment out of context and making a larger point, which applies to all of us. Sorry if you didn't get that.
Let's say the situation were reversed. Imagine that you made some obviously true statement about liturgy and I said that there was no reason to have said it so it was a sign that you subconsciously think the Novus Ordo is a good liturgy. How would you react?
A: There sure are a lot of people who approve of the Novus Ordo. It was a great idea to make stuff up about me to make that point.
B: That is the exact opposite of what I believe and I object to having such a wrong opinion attributed to me.
Obviously, I can't prove what I subconsciously feel about anything. But consciously, I believe that generalizing that men are oppressive is an opinion that is both wrong and detestable. I disagree with it so strongly that I get angry every time I encounter it.
Unless you were given the gift of reading souls or have some other extraordinary ability, you do not have any idea what I subconsciously think and feel on this or any other subject. You have no business making assertions about my subconscious in the first place. If you want to make a general point that people are subconsciously brainwashed by feminism, do so without making things up about me.