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Author Topic: Bellarmine's interesting view on faith or science  (Read 2695 times)

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Bellarmine's interesting view on faith or science
« on: April 20, 2024, 11:54:20 AM »
On the same subject, but on a different post, here is another question that needs to be addressed.

In his 1615 Letter to Foscarini, Cardinal Bellarmine wrote

'Nor may it be answered that this [geocentrism] is not a matter of faith, for if it is not a matter of faith from the point of view of the subject matter (ex parte objecti), it is a matter of faith on the part of the ones who have spoken (ex parte dicentis). It would be just as heretical to deny that Abraham had two sons and Jacob twelve, as it would be to deny the virgin birth of Christ, for both are declared by the Holy Ghost through the prophets and apostles.’

Now what do you think Fr Paul Robinson would have to say if the above was put to him. As you know he taught Thomism to seminarians to seminarians in the Society, yet in his book, website and wherever, actually contradicted St Thomas's;

‘That the world began to exist is an object of faith, but not of demonstration or science. And it is useful to consider this, lest anyone, presuming to demonstrate what is of faith, should bring forward reasons that are not cogent, so as to give occasion to unbelievers to laugh, thinking that on such grounds we believe things that are of faith.’--- St. Thomas Aquinas, (Summa theolagiae I.46.2)

Yes, Fr Paul is a Big Banger creationist who believes that happened 13.5 billion years ago.

But back to Bellarmine's what is of faith and not of faith. Couldn't we add to his theology that the Bible also reveals all was created in six days, and that the Holy Ghost also gives the following dates in Scripture.

Adam 5 days, Noah and the flood 1056 years (2941BC), Abraham 1950 after Creation, Exodus 2540AC, birth of Jesus 3997AC, death of Jesus 4030AC at 33 years, fall of Jerusalem 4070AC, the world on 2000AC was 5997 years old, 2024 years after Christ is the year 6020AC and so on.

Are the above dates not also a matter of faith on the part of the ones who have spoken (ex parte dicentis). Wouldn't it be just as heretical to deny that Abraham had two sons and Jacob twelve, as it would be to deny the virgin birth of Christ, for both are declared by the Holy Ghost through the prophets and apostles.’

Offline JoeZ

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Re: Bellarmine's interesting view on faith or science
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2024, 03:42:27 PM »
Or that Eve was made from Adam.

Or that natural selection is because the original plan is flawed and time had to fix it.

Or that natural selection requires death, but death doesn't enter the world until original sin.

Or that Adam named(knew of is the salient point here) all the animals, but couldn't have given the species that were extinct.

The list goes on and on.


Scripture and long age earth theory cannot both be true.


Re: Bellarmine's interesting view on faith or science
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2024, 04:44:14 AM »
Or that Eve was made from Adam.

Or that natural selection is because the original plan is flawed and time had to fix it.

Or that natural selection requires death, but death doesn't enter the world until original sin.

Or that Adam named(knew of is the salient point here) all the animals, but couldn't have given the species that were extinct.

The list goes on and on.


Scripture and long age earth theory cannot both be true.

Absolutely correct JoeZ. Believe it or not at Mass yesterday the priest gave a homily on faith and science. He correctly said science had done away with the need for God for many but then went on to say the Bible is not a science book and no science can show it errs in any way. He of course prefers to read Genesis with his science glasses and so on.

Offline OABrownson1876

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Re: Bellarmine's interesting view on faith or science
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2024, 08:53:27 AM »
St Augustine in Civitas Dei gives the different chronologies of the various civilizations, and if I recall, even the Egyptians estimate the earth to be about 10,000 years old, according to Augustine.  But the Doctor of Grace does say that it matters not if we believe that the earth is eons old.  What we cannot say is that The Fall did not happen, or that God did not immediately create Adam and Eve, etc. 

The problem is, that the majority of those who hold that the earth is millions of years old tend to be evolutionists.  A Catholic is allowed to be a heliocentrist, but he cannot deny what was aforementioned. If a Catholic were obligated to believe a particular number of years - let us say, six thousand, seven thousand, no, ten thousand, et alia, there would be mayhem.  Sometimes numbers can be tricky.  Blessed Anne Emmerich says that there were over a hundred people on the Ark, and this is not against Faith.  When St. Peter says, "eight souls were saved through water,"  we can safely maintain that there were ninety more souls.  But we cannot say, "Only six souls were saved through water," as this would obviously imply heresy.  Now, if St. Peter had said "only eight souls were saved by water," then we would be obligated to believe only eight souls. But Scripture does not include the qualifier "only."   

Offline St Giles

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Re: Bellarmine's interesting view on faith or science
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2024, 09:55:29 AM »
Sometimes numbers can be tricky.  Blessed Anne Emmerich says that there were over a hundred people on the Ark, and this is not against Faith.  When St. Peter says, "eight souls were saved through water,"  we can safely maintain that there were ninety more souls.  But we cannot say, "Only six souls were saved through water," as this would obviously imply heresy.  Now, if St. Peter had said "only eight souls were saved by water," then we would be obligated to believe only eight souls. But Scripture does not include the qualifier "only." 
In my English books of Blessed Emmerich I don't remember reading about 100 souls on the Ark, I thought it was just 8.