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Author Topic: Bellarmine's interesting view on faith or science  (Read 1670 times)

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Offline cassini

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Bellarmine's interesting view on faith or science
« on: April 20, 2024, 11:54:20 AM »
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  • On the same subject, but on a different post, here is another question that needs to be addressed.

    In his 1615 Letter to Foscarini, Cardinal Bellarmine wrote

    'Nor may it be answered that this [geocentrism] is not a matter of faith, for if it is not a matter of faith from the point of view of the subject matter (ex parte objecti), it is a matter of faith on the part of the ones who have spoken (ex parte dicentis). It would be just as heretical to deny that Abraham had two sons and Jacob twelve, as it would be to deny the virgin birth of Christ, for both are declared by the Holy Ghost through the prophets and apostles.’

    Now what do you think Fr Paul Robinson would have to say if the above was put to him. As you know he taught Thomism to seminarians to seminarians in the Society, yet in his book, website and wherever, actually contradicted St Thomas's;

    ‘That the world began to exist is an object of faith, but not of demonstration or science. And it is useful to consider this, lest anyone, presuming to demonstrate what is of faith, should bring forward reasons that are not cogent, so as to give occasion to unbelievers to laugh, thinking that on such grounds we believe things that are of faith.’--- St. Thomas Aquinas, (Summa theolagiae I.46.2)

    Yes, Fr Paul is a Big Banger creationist who believes that happened 13.5 billion years ago.

    But back to Bellarmine's what is of faith and not of faith. Couldn't we add to his theology that the Bible also reveals all was created in six days, and that the Holy Ghost also gives the following dates in Scripture.

    Adam 5 days, Noah and the flood 1056 years (2941BC), Abraham 1950 after Creation, Exodus 2540AC, birth of Jesus 3997AC, death of Jesus 4030AC at 33 years, fall of Jerusalem 4070AC, the world on 2000AC was 5997 years old, 2024 years after Christ is the year 6020AC and so on.

    Are the above dates not also a matter of faith on the part of the ones who have spoken (ex parte dicentis). Wouldn't it be just as heretical to deny that Abraham had two sons and Jacob twelve, as it would be to deny the virgin birth of Christ, for both are declared by the Holy Ghost through the prophets and apostles.’

    Offline JoeZ

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    Re: Bellarmine's interesting view on faith or science
    « Reply #1 on: April 21, 2024, 03:42:27 PM »
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  • Or that Eve was made from Adam.

    Or that natural selection is because the original plan is flawed and time had to fix it.

    Or that natural selection requires death, but death doesn't enter the world until original sin.

    Or that Adam named(knew of is the salient point here) all the animals, but couldn't have given the species that were extinct.

    The list goes on and on.


    Scripture and long age earth theory cannot both be true.
    Pray the Holy Rosary.


    Offline cassini

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    Re: Bellarmine's interesting view on faith or science
    « Reply #2 on: April 22, 2024, 04:44:14 AM »
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  • Or that Eve was made from Adam.

    Or that natural selection is because the original plan is flawed and time had to fix it.

    Or that natural selection requires death, but death doesn't enter the world until original sin.

    Or that Adam named(knew of is the salient point here) all the animals, but couldn't have given the species that were extinct.

    The list goes on and on.


    Scripture and long age earth theory cannot both be true.

    Absolutely correct JoeZ. Believe it or not at Mass yesterday the priest gave a homily on faith and science. He correctly said science had done away with the need for God for many but then went on to say the Bible is not a science book and no science can show it errs in any way. He of course prefers to read Genesis with his science glasses and so on.

    Offline OABrownson1876

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    Re: Bellarmine's interesting view on faith or science
    « Reply #3 on: April 22, 2024, 08:53:27 AM »
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  • St Augustine in Civitas Dei gives the different chronologies of the various civilizations, and if I recall, even the Egyptians estimate the earth to be about 10,000 years old, according to Augustine.  But the Doctor of Grace does say that it matters not if we believe that the earth is eons old.  What we cannot say is that The Fall did not happen, or that God did not immediately create Adam and Eve, etc. 

    The problem is, that the majority of those who hold that the earth is millions of years old tend to be evolutionists.  A Catholic is allowed to be a heliocentrist, but he cannot deny what was aforementioned. If a Catholic were obligated to believe a particular number of years - let us say, six thousand, seven thousand, no, ten thousand, et alia, there would be mayhem.  Sometimes numbers can be tricky.  Blessed Anne Emmerich says that there were over a hundred people on the Ark, and this is not against Faith.  When St. Peter says, "eight souls were saved through water,"  we can safely maintain that there were ninety more souls.  But we cannot say, "Only six souls were saved through water," as this would obviously imply heresy.  Now, if St. Peter had said "only eight souls were saved by water," then we would be obligated to believe only eight souls. But Scripture does not include the qualifier "only."   
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    Offline St Giles

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    Re: Bellarmine's interesting view on faith or science
    « Reply #4 on: April 22, 2024, 09:55:29 AM »
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  • Sometimes numbers can be tricky.  Blessed Anne Emmerich says that there were over a hundred people on the Ark, and this is not against Faith.  When St. Peter says, "eight souls were saved through water,"  we can safely maintain that there were ninety more souls.  But we cannot say, "Only six souls were saved through water," as this would obviously imply heresy.  Now, if St. Peter had said "only eight souls were saved by water," then we would be obligated to believe only eight souls. But Scripture does not include the qualifier "only." 
    In my English books of Blessed Emmerich I don't remember reading about 100 souls on the Ark, I thought it was just 8.
    "Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect."
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    "Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment"


    Offline cassini

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    Re: Bellarmine's interesting view on faith or science
    « Reply #5 on: April 22, 2024, 12:14:33 PM »
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  • St Augustine in Civitas Dei gives the different chronologies of the various civilizations, and if I recall, even the Egyptians estimate the earth to be about 10,000 years old, according to Augustine.  But the Doctor of Grace does say that it matters not if we believe that the earth is eons old.  What we cannot say is that The Fall did not happen, or that God did not immediately create Adam and Eve, etc. 

    The problem is, that the majority of those who hold that the earth is millions of years old tend to be evolutionists.  A Catholic is allowed to be a heliocentrist, but he cannot deny what was aforementioned. If a Catholic were obligated to believe a particular number of years - let us say, six thousand, seven thousand, no, ten thousand, et alia, there would be mayhem.  Sometimes numbers can be tricky.  Blessed Anne Emmerich says that there were over a hundred people on the Ark, and this is not against Faith.  When St. Peter says, "eight souls were saved through water,"  we can safely maintain that there were ninety more souls.  But we cannot say, "Only six souls were saved through water," as this would obviously imply heresy.  Now, if St. Peter had said "only eight souls were saved by water," then we would be obligated to believe only eight souls. But Scripture does not include the qualifier "only." 

    The heliocentric heresy was never abrogated so is still a heresy.

    'I saw these false computations of the pagan priests at the same time as I beheld Jesus Christ teaching on the Sabbath at Aruma. Jesus, speaking before the Pharisees of the Call of Abraham and his sojourn in Egypt, exposed the errors of the Egyptian calendar. He said the world had now existed 4028 years. When I heard Jesus say this, He was thirty-one years old.’--- Blessed Katarina Emmerick.

    Katarina’s age for Jesus Christ is the exactly the same as found in the Scriptures: Adam 5 days, Noah and the flood 1056 years (2941BC), Abraham 1950 after Creation (AC), Exodus 2540AC, birth of Jesus 3997AC, death of Jesus 4030AC at 33 years, fall of Jerusalem 4070AC, the world on 2000AC was 5997 years old, 2022 years after Christ was the year 6,018AC and so on.

    Offline cassini

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    Re: Bellarmine's interesting view on faith or science
    « Reply #6 on: April 22, 2024, 12:17:26 PM »
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  • In my English books of Blessed Emmerich I don't remember reading about 100 souls on the Ark, I thought it was just 8.

    It seems she did St Giles. I only learned that recently. But it makes sense.

    https://ronconte.com/2014/02/27/noah-and-the-flood-according-to-the-visions-of-blessed-anne-catherine-emmerich/

    'The ark, lying there by itself on the top of the hill, shone with a bluish light. At a distance, it looked as if it were descending from the clouds. And now the time for the Deluge drew nigh. Noah had already announced it to his family. He took with him into the ark Shem, Ham, and Japheth with their wives and their children. There were in the ark grandsons from fifty to eighty years old with their children small and large. All that had labored at its construction and who were good and free from idolatry, entered with Noah.

    There were over one hundred people in the ark, and they were necessary to give daily food to the animals and to clean after them. I must say, for I always see it so, that Shem’s, Ham’s and Japheth’s children all went into the ark. There were many little boys and girls in it, in fact all of Noah’s family that were good. Holy Scripture mentions only three of Adam’s children, Cain, Abel, and Seth; and yet I see many others among them, and I always see them in pairs, boys and girls.'

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Bellarmine's interesting view on faith or science
    « Reply #7 on: April 22, 2024, 02:53:19 PM »
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  • It seems she did St Giles. I only learned that recently. But it makes sense.

    https://ronconte.com/2014/02/27/noah-and-the-flood-according-to-the-visions-of-blessed-anne-catherine-emmerich/

    'The ark, lying there by itself on the top of the hill, shone with a bluish light. At a distance, it looked as if it were descending from the clouds. And now the time for the Deluge drew nigh. Noah had already announced it to his family. He took with him into the ark Shem, Ham, and Japheth with their wives and their children. There were in the ark grandsons from fifty to eighty years old with their children small and large. All that had labored at its construction and who were good and free from idolatry, entered with Noah.

    There were over one hundred people in the ark, and they were necessary to give daily food to the animals and to clean after them. I must say, for I always see it so, that Shem’s, Ham’s and Japheth’s children all went into the ark. There were many little boys and girls in it, in fact all of Noah’s family that were good. Holy Scripture mentions only three of Adam’s children, Cain, Abel, and Seth; and yet I see many others among them, and I always see them in pairs, boys and girls.'

    Interesting.  This does seem plausible, since, would Shem, Ham and Japeth have left their children behind?  Sacred Scripture does tend to focus on the principle characters, especially in genealogies.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Bellarmine's interesting view on faith or science
    « Reply #8 on: April 22, 2024, 02:57:01 PM »
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  • St Augustine in Civitas Dei gives the different chronologies of the various civilizations, and if I recall, even the Egyptians estimate the earth to be about 10,000 years old, according to Augustine.  But the Doctor of Grace does say that it matters not if we believe that the earth is eons old.  What we cannot say is that The Fall did not happen, or that God did not immediately create Adam and Eve, etc. 

    The problem is, that the majority of those who hold that the earth is millions of years old tend to be evolutionists.  A Catholic is allowed to be a heliocentrist, but he cannot deny what was aforementioned. If a Catholic were obligated to believe a particular number of years - let us say, six thousand, seven thousand, no, ten thousand, et alia, there would be mayhem.  Sometimes numbers can be tricky.  Blessed Anne Emmerich says that there were over a hundred people on the Ark, and this is not against Faith.  When St. Peter says, "eight souls were saved through water,"  we can safely maintain that there were ninety more souls.  But we cannot say, "Only six souls were saved through water," as this would obviously imply heresy.  Now, if St. Peter had said "only eight souls were saved by water," then we would be obligated to believe only eight souls. But Scripture does not include the qualifier "only." 

    More than about 7,000 years old since the creation of Adam doesn't mesh with Sacred Scripture.  I guess the PBC left it open to determine whether the term "day" could mean something other than 24 hours, so that the days of creation prior to Adam could have been longer, but the genealogies in Sacred Scripture provide a very solid timeline since Adam.

    I also don't see how a Catholic "is allowed to be a heliocentrist" other than the de facto permission of popes who refused to continue the initial condemnation of it.  Heliocentrism, of course, is abandoned even by moderns science, so there's also that.  According to Newtonian physics of "gravity", the solar system revolves around the barycenter of the system, which sometimes is outside the sun, so that the sun itself is rotating around it, not to mention that they now claim the universe is much larger and that the entire solar system is flying through space at breakneck speeds.

    Offline Kephapaulos

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    Re: Bellarmine's interesting view on faith or science
    « Reply #9 on: April 22, 2024, 11:18:52 PM »
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  • I find it still disappointing and sad. He is promoting his same errors even recently.


    "Non nobis, Domine, non nobis; sed nomini tuo da gloriam..." (Ps. 113:9)

    Offline roscoe

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    Re: Bellarmine's interesting view on faith or science
    « Reply #10 on: April 23, 2024, 12:38:31 AM »
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  • The Pontifical Commission of Biblical Affairs( Chairman Card Rampolla) has declared that we are allowed to debate the age of the Earth or Man w/o censure. :popcorn:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Bellarmine's interesting view on faith or science
    « Reply #11 on: April 23, 2024, 05:55:52 AM »
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  • The Pontifical Commission of Biblical Affairs( Chairman Card Rampolla) has declared that we are allowed to debate the age of the Earth or Man w/o censure. :popcorn:

    Earth, yes, man, no.  Don't distort the PBC's declaration.

    Offline cassini

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    Re: Bellarmine's interesting view on faith or science
    « Reply #12 on: April 24, 2024, 07:08:30 AM »
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  • I find it still disappointing and sad. He is promoting his same errors even recently.



    Put up this post plus a little below to try to educate some.

    Here we have a priest trying to make secular theories superior to supernatural revelation. He actually taught Thomism in a SSPX seminary, but obviously chose to ignore his most important teaching on this subject.


    ‘That the world began to exist is an object of faith, but not of demonstration or science. And it is useful to consider this, lest anyone, presuming to demonstrate what is of faith, should bring forward reasons that are not cogent, so as to give occasion to unbelievers to laugh, thinking that on such grounds we believe things that are of faith.’--- St. Thomas Aquinas, (Summa theolagiae I.46.2)

    Now what you must know is that all Fr Paul's secular creation arose from the lie that the Church was wrong with regard to Galileo's rejection of Biblical geocentrism. Indeed all the catechesis he quotes is post-Galileo lie. In 1871 and 1887 two scientific tests were done that found the Earth does not revolve around the sun.

    ‘All modern cosmology stands or falls with this concept [the Copernican Principle] being correct, even though, to quote a text approved by Einstein: “We cannot feel our motion through space, nor has any experiment proved the Earth in motion.”’ (Lincoln Barnett: The universe and Dr. Einstein, Dover Publications, 1948, p.73.)

    Now every word uttered in the video above is based on Catholic teaching ARISING from the Galileo lie. The council of Trent said, that when all the Fathers agree on a REVELATION of Scripture that is infallible teaching. Fr Robinson;'s heliocentric evolutionary science is based on his rejection of what Pope Paul V defined and declared, THAT GEOCENTRISM of Scripture was based on the understanding of ALL THE FATHERS. So every long-age evolutionary theory depends on rejecting this dogma of the Catholic Church. Every word that Fr Paul quoted from 'Catholic teaching' is based on a rejection of the infallibility of a revelation held by all the Fathers. Take for example fr Paul's age for the universe. He say proof of the long-ages is that the furthest star away from the Earth is 13.5 billion light-years so the universe is 'proven' to be 13.5 billion years old. Little did he know that if this is true, then the Earth must be at the cent re of the  universe. The Bible said God's immediate Creation placed all the stars out there visible to man on the sixth day. That is a supernatural teaching and Catholicism is a Supernatural religion not an atheist religion that holds every one of Fr Paul's beliefs on origins. In other words there is no time-distance involved with the Supernatural teaching.

    Look I could go on but if anyone wants an answer to any question on Fr Robinson's secular religion, just let me know.


    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: Bellarmine's interesting view on faith or science
    « Reply #13 on: April 24, 2024, 07:48:30 AM »
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  • I find it still disappointing and sad. He is promoting his same errors even recently.


    Shouldn’t faith and scripture be a priority.   Also, is this all a distraction to the Sodomite problem within the Church.  
    May God bless you and keep you

    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: Bellarmine's interesting view on faith or science
    « Reply #14 on: April 24, 2024, 07:50:24 AM »
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  • I think it’s disturbing that there are “ “Catholic”priests that actually believe Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ is just a club that does good deeds.   
    May God bless you and keep you