Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Baptism of Desire  (Read 3349 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
  • *****
  • Posts: 14632
  • Reputation: +6021/-901
  • Gender: Male
Re: Baptism of Desire
« Reply #30 on: November 11, 2022, 05:36:42 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • So, this is what "AS IT IS WRITTEN" means ...

    This means that what follows is the Scriptural Proof for how there can be no justification without the laver or the desire for it ... because (as it is written) ... Our Lord taught that water AND the Holy Spirit are required to enter the Kingdom.

    This is the main reason that the justification passage must be read as a logical "AND", since this would be the equivalent of teaching ...

    No one can be justified without the laver OR the votum for it, because the Lord taught that both the laver AND the votum are required.

    They're making analogy ---  laver is to (Our Lord's) water, as votum is to (Our Lord's) Holy Spirit, and the entire Treatise on Justification just explained how it is the Holy Spirit that inspires all the necessary dispositions to properly receive the Sacrament of Baptism.

    Laver AND Votum BECAUSE Water AND the Holy Spirit

    As the Oxford lady said, it's ambiguous without disambiguation from context, but the "AS IT IS WRITTEN" passage does exactly that, disambiguate it.  This Oxford lady just didn't have the knowledge of Catholic theology of Scripture to recognize that.

    I know that it's common among the Anti-BoDers to (mis)read "AS IT IS WRITTEN" to mean (take this literally), but that's NOT what the expression means, and it's actually shooting yourselves in the foot not to recgonize what it actually means, since it is in fact the key to understanding that BOTH the laver AND the votum are required for justification.
    While what you say is true, focusing on the words; or / desire / vow / votum, I don't think clears up anything for those a BODers who are already so laser focused on the same words that they don't, won't or can't see anything else.

    Consider the fact that a BODers do not even understand that the canon so often referenced is condemning the heresy of justification through faith alone.

    And consider the reason they do not understand this is because they have predisposed their minds to, and consequently insist that canon is defining a BOD - *that's* the *only* context they have in their mind when they read that canon. Which means whatever they read will mean only what they already believe. This means that the context of what Trent said is lost on them right from the get-go.

    Keeping the true context of that canon means that the focus should be squarely on the word "without". Do that, and the words; "without the sacraments, or without the desire thereof," simply mean what they say.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline DecemRationis

    • Supporter
    • ****
    • Posts: 2312
    • Reputation: +867/-144
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #31 on: November 11, 2022, 06:07:43 AM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!1
  • The vehement anti-BODers keep banging their heads against the tradition they seek to maintain. I, as many who recognize the teaching of BOD, have cited the Catechism of Trent where it talks about the possibility of justification for a catechumen who dies without receiving the fount which he desired. The CE says this of its composition:


    Quote
    The Reformers had not been slow in taking advantage of the situation; their popular tracts and catechisms were flooding every country and leading thousands of souls away from the Church. The Fathers of Trent, therefore, "wishing to apply a salutary remedy to this great and pernicious evil, and thinking that the definition of the principal Catholic doctrines was not enough for the purpose, resolved also to publish a formulary and method for teaching the rudiments of the faith, to be used by all legitimate pastors and teachers" (Cat. praef., vii). This resolution was taken in the eighteenth session (26 February, 1562) on the suggestion of St. Charles Borromeo; who was then giving full scope to his zeal for the reformation of the clergy. Pius IV entrusted the composition of the Catechism to four distinguished theologians: Archbishops Leonardo Marino of Lanciano and Muzio Calini of Zara, Egidio Foscarini, Bishop of Modena, and Francisco Fureiro, a Portuguese Dominican. Three cardinals were appointed to supervise the work. St. Charles Borromeo superintended the redaction of the original Italian text, which, thanks to his exertions, was finished in 1564. Cardinal William Sirletus then gave it the final touches, and the famous Humanists, Julius Pogianus and Paulus Manutius, translated it into classical Latin. It was then published in Latin and Italian as "Catechismus ex decreto Concilii Tridentini ad parochos Pii V jussu editus, Romae, 1566" (in-folio). Translations into the vernacular of every nation were ordered by the Council (Sess. XXIV, "De Ref.", c. vii).

    https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13120c.htm

    Now - I say this in response to Stubborn and others who say that the Catechism is not talking about a catechumen who dies before receiving baptism - the theologians who annotated John 3:5 in the first English translation of the Douay Rheims in 1582, roughly contemporaneous with the Catechism and the Council of Trent, said basically the same thing as the Catechism of Trent:


    Quote
    5. Born again of Water.] As no man can enter into this world nor have his life and being in the same, except he be born of his carnal parents: no more can a man enter into the life and state of grace which is in Christ, or attain to life everlasting, unless he be born and baptized of water and the Holy Ghost. Whereby we see first, this Sacrament to be called our regeneration or second birth, in respect of our natural and carnal which was before. Secondly, that this sacrament consisteth of an external element of water, and internal virtue of the Holy Spirit: Wherein it excelleth John's baptism, which had the external element, but not the spiritual grace. Thirdly, that no man can enter into the Kingdom of God, nor into the fellowship of Holy Church, without it.

    Whereby the *Pelagians, and Calvinists be condemned, that promise life everlasting to young children that die without baptism, and all other that think only their faith to serve, or the external element of water superfluous or not necessary: our Saviour's words being plain and general. Though in this case, God which hath not bound his grace, in respect of his own freedom, to any Sacrament, may and doth accept them as baptized, which either are martyred before they could be baptized, or else depart this life with vow and desire to have that Sacrament, but by some remediless necessity could not obtain it. Lastly, it is proved that this Sacrament giveth grace ex opere operator, that is, of the work itself (which all Protestants deny) because it so breedeth our spiritual life in God, as our carnal birth giveth the life of the world.



    This accords with what Mithrandylan said about baptism as an instrumental cause: an instrumental cause is a subordinate cause used by the principal agent (God here) to achieve a purpose. God loves to use instrumental causes like baptism, the sacraments, but, as the priest/theologians of the DR noted, He has not in every instance bound Himself and His justice to the object He indeed uses for His purposes. It is the grace of the Holy Ghost which inspires the sacrament that saves and the Church has taught that it is possible to receive that grace that justifies in some instances by faith and penance without actual receipt of the sacrament.

    And in anticipation of those like Lad who try to paint me into some liberal corner of a "BODer," I will refer to a thread mentioned by Mithrandylan in this thread, where I state and argue:


    Quote
    But let me comment: if one understands predestination - God's willing and providing - being the infallible cause of - the salvation of His chosen elect, and understands the truism that God determines the means and the ends of everything He "simply" wills (St. Thomas, above), then the difficulties or problems of the "fairness" of God saving only those who are joined to the Catholic Church disappears: if He wills infallibly the salvation of all who are saved (and He does), it is obvious that He would also at the same time determine the how or the way He does it (i.e., do it in the manner He selected or wishes) - via faith in Christ, the Church, or baptism, etc.

    One could no more object to His choice of how He saves than one can object to His choice of who is saved. The truth of one being established (God's choice of who is to be saved), their are no logical or legitimate grounds to justify an objection to the how, since both come down to His free determination and choice. 

    There is simply no distinction between the who and the how of election that legitimatizes an objection to the one rather than the other. 

    The election of the saved being a gratuitous act of God's predestination being a truth of Scripture and the Church's teaching, there is no ground for valid objection to God's conjoined free and gratuitous determination of the how or manner He does it. 



    https://www.cathinfo.com/the-sacred-catholic-liturgy-chant-prayers/god's-salvific-will-to-save-'all-men'-and-the-death-of-unbaptized-infants/msg784430/#msg784430


    And it has also been my position, and my argument in this thread, that the classical and ancient position of St. Augustine and St. Thomas, reflected also in the Haydock Bible annotations posted in this thread, on Predestination presents a seamless garment that flows without rent and explains the seeming "harshness" of the dogmas of No Salvation Outside the Church, no salvation without possession of the Catholic faith or the sacrament of baptism (or at least the explicit desire for it, and the actual receipt of the sacrament as to infants). 

    https://www.cathinfo.com/the-sacred-catholic-liturgy-chant-prayers/god's-salvific-will-to-save-'all-men'-and-the-death-of-unbaptized-infants/msg791027/#msg791027

    The Satanic expansion of salvation to non-Catholics and non-Christians (the infernal campaign inaugurated in Genesis 3 transformed into an attack on God's plan of correction and redemption after the Fall, so that now the false counter Church that Bishop Sheen said would "ape" the true religion proclaims the false gospel that "all men" could possess immortal life and beatific bliss, becoming "as God") necessitated an attack on the Catholic dogma of the predestination of the saints in the Church and while holding the Catholic faith, lest one actually stumble upon the dogma (despite the silence that it is generally wrapped in to hide it) and realize its significance and implication regarding those twin necessities of being Catholic and possessing the Catholic faith, which then make absolute sense as the unique and only means of salvation employed by a God who sovereignly determines who and how men are saved.

    . . . 

    And thus, so now the thinking goes in the Conciliar Church, members of various false Christian Sects, Jєωs, Moslems, Hindus, Buddhists (and on and on), can be saved even "in their false religions" by way of a "development" manifested by the Conciliar Church in its dropping of the "but not by their false religions" expression to which the expression "in their false religions" was previously joined by otherwise true and faithful pastors of the Church like Archbishop Lefebvre, a comforting or palliating tag that likely reflected an attempt to suppress the necessarily concomitant association of a derogation of those joint necessities previously held to by the Church, EENS and the necessity of the Catholic faith, an attempt that utterly failed to stem the rushing waters of their erosion unleashed by V2 and the Conciliar establishment.

    https://www.cathinfo.com/the-sacred-catholic-liturgy-chant-prayers/god's-salvific-will-to-save-'all-men'-and-the-death-of-unbaptized-infants/msg794272/#msg794272

    I'm no "BODer" who is seeking to use BOD as a leverage to save non-Catholics or erode the doctrine of EENS. 

    According to my view of election and predestination, it would be perfectly consistent if all of those saved received water baptism: God sovereignly determines the end and the means. I would have no objection. NONE. 

    But the Church teaches the great doctrines of grace and justice and salvation "by the Spirit, and not the letter," and it has taught the possibility of regeneration/justification/salvation without the receipt of the sacrament. I have objected in the past as a former Feeneyite, and you could object, but the simple truth is it does, and that does not erode the necessity of baptism nor the truth of no salvation outside the Church, two other great truths taught by the Church. 


    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 14632
    • Reputation: +6021/-901
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #32 on: November 11, 2022, 07:11:12 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • This accords with what Mithrandylan said about baptism as an instrumental cause: an instrumental cause is a subordinate cause used by the principal agent (God here) to achieve a purpose. God loves to use instrumental causes like baptism, the sacraments, but, as the priest/theologians of the DR noted, He has not in every instance bound Himself and His justice to the object He indeed uses for His purposes. It is the grace of the Holy Ghost which inspires the sacrament that saves and the Church has taught that it is possible to receive that grace that justifies in some instances by faith and penance without actual receipt of the sacrament.
    No, this is where you err.

    Some Fathers, Theologians etc., have taught it, but the Church, in her official, de fide teachings, Trent in particular, do not teach such a thing, which is why no supporter of a BOD is able to produce said teaching of the Church and don't even make the attempt any more.

    First the commentator says: "no man can enter into the Kingdom of God, nor into the fellowship of Holy Church, without it." But then immediately contradicts both Scripture and himself by saying: "Though in this case...[God] doth accept them as baptized..." Like, where did he come up with that idea?

    DR, even if you and what the commentator was saying were true, that; "though in this case... [God] doth accept them as baptized.." then Trent would be wrong because Trent says without the sacrament / desire, justification is not possible.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 45995
    • Reputation: +27088/-5007
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #33 on: November 11, 2022, 07:22:46 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Catechism of Trent does not teach BoD.  Nor did Trent.  Period.

    1) BoD was rejected by a majority of the Church Fathers (it would be unprecedented for the majority of Church Fathers to actually reject an actual "dogma")
    2) BoD has never been proven by any theological argument.

    Ergo, QED, BoD is nothing but pure speculation.

    It's theological garbage, and it's the genesis of the modern crisis in the Church.



    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 45995
    • Reputation: +27088/-5007
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #34 on: November 11, 2022, 07:25:16 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I'm no "BODer" who is seeking to use BOD as a leverage to save non-Catholics or erode the doctrine of EENS.

    To bad that, for this "super dogma" that you morons cling to as if drooling at the mouth, the Church never defined it ... so anybody can do anything with it.  You can't tell anyone, "this is how far you can go with BoD" or, "no, this is".

    Never defined.  Never taught.  Mere opinion and theological speculation.  Theological garbage.  It's never been proven ben syllogistic argument but merely emoted into existence and then regurgitated by one author after another.


    Offline DecemRationis

    • Supporter
    • ****
    • Posts: 2312
    • Reputation: +867/-144
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #35 on: November 11, 2022, 07:37:58 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Catechism of Trent does not teach BoD.  Nor did Trent.  Period.

    1) BoD was rejected by a majority of the Church Fathers (it would be unprecedented for the majority of Church Fathers to actually reject an actual "dogma")
    2) BoD has never been proven by any theological argument.

    Ergo, QED, BoD is nothing but pure speculation.

    It's theological garbage, and it's the genesis of the modern crisis in the Church.

    I disagree. St. Thomas believed in BOD, but there was no movement in the Church after St. Thomas to include within salvation non-Catholics, pagans or heretics as "within the Church" until the Jesuits of the 16th century and the discovery of the New World. Ironically, this timing coincided roughly with the Prot revolt. Now, the Prots get some things right, of course, the Trinity, Christ as Saviour, etc. They also get right the predestination of the elect; where they go wrong is some of them take that to the extreme of a "double predestination," i.e. that God wills the damnation of some, as if that is his desire, rather than His permission.

    The solid Catholic doctrine of predestination - which would support the view that all of the elect come into the Catholic Church, as willed by God - was eroded by these same Jesuits (who were Molinists) and they used BOD as a loophole. In part because the Jesuit (Molinist) view served to highlight the distinction between the heretical Prots and the Catholic faith, it was tolerated by the Church.

    St. Thomas, St. Augustine - they both accepted and acknowledge the doctrine of election of the saints by God's predestination. I would argue that it is the exaltation of a perverted sense of the free will of man - exemplified by Molinist doctrine - and the necessary and complimentary erosion of the Catholic doctrine of Predestination as taught by St. Augustine and St. Thomas, that is the culprit. BOD was merely an instrument (no pun intended).
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

    • Supporter
    • ****
    • Posts: 2312
    • Reputation: +867/-144
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #36 on: November 11, 2022, 07:38:41 AM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • To bad that, for this "super dogma" that you morons cling to as if drooling at the mouth, the Church never defined it ... so anybody can do anything with it.  You can't tell anyone, "this is how far you can go with BoD" or, "no, this is".

    Never defined.  Never taught.  Mere opinion and theological speculation.  Theological garbage.  It's never been proven ben syllogistic argument but merely emoted into existence and then regurgitated by one author after another.

    There you go again, "morons." Didn't buy that mirror yet? Need a few bucks?
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline ServusInutilisDomini

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 529
    • Reputation: +249/-87
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #37 on: November 11, 2022, 07:53:03 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • There you go again, "morons." Didn't buy that mirror yet? Need a few bucks?
    The most convincing argument against EENS dogma is that people who believe in it are "uncharitable". 


    At least to most people it seems.


    So you avoid the point that BoD isn't defined and everything is allowed except the necessity of the sacrament of baptism.


    Offline DecemRationis

    • Supporter
    • ****
    • Posts: 2312
    • Reputation: +867/-144
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #38 on: November 11, 2022, 08:12:56 AM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • The most convincing argument against EENS dogma is that people who believe in it are "uncharitable".


    At least to most people it seems.


    So you avoid the point that BoD isn't defined and everything is allowed except the necessity of the sacrament of baptism.

    Servus,

    I've addressed this repeatedly, and I understand that you don't particularly follow my thought - why should you? Anyway, I'll dig up my response to this and post it here. In short, I believe the concept of a real possibility of justification by the Spirit without receipt of the sacrament in re is indeed "defined" by Trent as precisely that, i.e. a recognition of that real possibility, without a more elaborate definition of specifics, such as is addressed in the Catechism of Trent and, e.g., in the annotations to John 3:5 of the DR that I cited. 

    I do believe Trent taught that possibility, as did St. Alphonsus, St. Robert Bellarmine, Orestes Brownson, Fr. Michael Mueller, on and on and etc. 

    DR
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

    • Supporter
    • ****
    • Posts: 2312
    • Reputation: +867/-144
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #39 on: November 11, 2022, 08:22:35 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • I believe there is a "core concept" of BOD that is taught by the Council of Trent and by the Church:


    Quote
    Are you aware (anyone) of any theologians of any stature - well, I'm not aware of any theologians for that matter - holding that Trent didn't pronounce in Session VI, Chapter 4 that a desire for the sacrament can justify? Of course, many can be cited who did read Trent to say as much.

    Since this thread was prompted by the thought of Brownson, I'll again quote from his definitive (for me) comments on the necessity of the Church for salvation, and by necessary implication on the necessity of the sacrament of baptism, by which one enters the Church:



    Quote

    It is evident, both from Bellarmine and Billuart, that no one can be saved unless he belongs to the visible communion of the Church, either actually or virtually, and also that the salvation of catechumens can be asserted only because they do so belong; that is, because they are in the vestibule, for the purpose of entering, – have already entered in their will and proximate disposition. St. Thomas teaches with regard to these, in case they have faith working by love, that all they lack is the reception of the visible sacrament in re; but if they are prevented by death from receiving it in re before the Church is ready to administer it, that God supplies the defect, accepts the will for the deed, and reputes them to be baptized. If the defect is supplied, and God reputes them to be baptized, they are so in effect, have in effect received the visible sacrament, are truly members of the external communion of the Church, and therefore are saved in it, not out of it (Summa, 3, Q.68, a.2, corp. ad 2. Et ad 3.)… …Bellarmine, Billuart, Perrone, etc., in speaking of persons as belonging to the soul and not to the body, mean, it is evident, not persons who in no sense belong to the body, but simply those who, though they in effect belong to it, do not belong to it in the full and strict sense of the word, because they have not received the visible sacrament in re. All they teach is simply that persons may be saved who have not received the visible sacrament in re; but they by no means teach that persons can be saved without having received the visible sacrament at all. There is no difference between their view and ours, for we have never contended for anything more than this; only we think, that, in these times especially, when the tendency is to depreciate the external, it is more proper to speak of them simply as belonging to the soul, for the fact the most important to be insisted on is, not that it is impossible to be saved without receiving the visible sacrament in re, but that it is impossible to be saved without receiving the visible sacrament at least in voto et proxima dispositione.




    Brownson, Orestes. “The Great Question.” Brownson’s Quarterly Review. Oct. 1847. Found in: Brownson, Henry F. The Works of Orestes A. Brownson: Collected and Arranged. Vol.V. (pp.562-563). Detroit: Thorndike Nourse, Publisher, 1884.

    That right there is what I have described as the "core concept" of BOD: a recognition of the possibility of salvation by receipt of the sacrament "in voto et proxima dispositione." The Church has not elaborated on the how, and when, that possibility may become real, beyond saying it would if a catechumen was prevented from receiving the sacrament while having faith, repentance and preparing to receive it.

    The failure or lack of elaboration on the concept no more betrays the concept as false than a vast amount of mystery regarding the Trinity, for example, renders the truth of God being triune false.

    DR

    https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/orestes-brownson-on-theological-questions/msg846051/#msg846051


    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Mithrandylan

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4565
    • Reputation: +5264/-448
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #40 on: November 11, 2022, 08:48:00 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • So, this is what "AS IT IS WRITTEN" means ...
    .
    Although I don't fully agree with the full implications you draw from your explanation of "as it is written," I agree with your understanding of what "as it is written" means. It is a reference, a citation, used to support the previous claim (that without water baptism or the desire for it, no man is justified).  
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).


    Offline Mithrandylan

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4565
    • Reputation: +5264/-448
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #41 on: November 11, 2022, 09:16:07 AM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • I encourage everyone to read Decem Rationis' posts in here, as his prose demonstrates a lucid and familiar understanding of all the relevant theological material. 
    .
    Regarding baptism as the instrumental cause of justification-- a description Trent gives us with no less authority than the claim of justification not being effected except through water baptism or a desire for it regardless of what you take that to mean-- we can turn to St. Thomas, whose coordination of Aristotelian metaphysics and Christian Tradition animated Trent's theological discourse*:


    Quote
    an efficient cause is twofold, principal and instrumental. The principal cause works by the power of its form, to which form the effect is likened; just as fire by its own heat makes something hot. In this way none but God can cause grace: since grace is nothing else than a participated likeness of the Divine Nature, according to 2 Peter 1:4: "He hath given us most great and precious promises; that we may be [Vulgate: 'you may be made'] partakers of the Divine Nature." But the instrumental cause works not by the power of its form, but only by the motion whereby it is moved by the principal agent: so that the effect is not likened to the instrument but to the principal agent: for instance, the couch is not like the axe, but like the art which is in the craftsman's mind. And it is thus that the sacraments of the New Law cause grace: for they are instituted by God to be employed for the purpose of conferring grace. Hence Augustine says (Contra Faust. xix): "All these things," viz. pertaining to the sacraments, "are done and pass away, but the power," viz. of God, "which works by them, remains ever." Now that is, properly speaking, an instrument by which someone works: wherefore it is written (Titus 3:5): "He saved us by the laver of regeneration."
    .

    (ST III, Q 62, a1)
    .
    *In Aeterni Patris, Pope Leo XIII reports that St. Thomas's Summa was placed on Trent's altars alongside the Gospels and the decrees of the Popes as a source from which to "seek counsel, reason, and inspiration" (para 22).
    .
    As St. Pius X warned, those who do not learn from St. Thomas are incapable of even understanding the words used to propose dogmas.  Disfamiliarity with Thomas makes Trent's designation of baptism as the "instrumental cause" just a colloquial expression. But familiarity with this jargon reveals an extraordinarily specific meaning, and at that a meaning incompatible with BoD denial. Baptism cannot be necessary in the way they contend and at the same time be an instrumental cause.

    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 45995
    • Reputation: +27088/-5007
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #42 on: November 11, 2022, 10:11:27 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Regarding baptism as the instrumental cause of justification-- a description Trent gives us with no less authority than the claim of justification not being effected except through water baptism or a desire for it regardless of what you take that to mean-- we can turn to St. Thomas, whose coordination of Aristotelian metaphysics and Christian Tradition animated Trent's theological discourse*:

    While I agree that "instrumental cause" is not ruled out even if the cause occurs through a reception in voto, it also doesn't prove your assertion that in bold there that it CAN happen other than by actual reception of the Sacrament.  That's what is under dispute here.

    This designation of "instrumental cause of justification" does not prove either side of the debate.

    I've made the same argument against those who state that BoD inherently denies the "necessity" of Baptism, as the necessity could be preserved by requiring a reception in voto of the Sacrament.

    So "necessity" and "instrumental cause" by themselves are neither here nor there, and prove neither side.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 45995
    • Reputation: +27088/-5007
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #43 on: November 11, 2022, 10:39:28 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • .
    Although I don't fully agree with the full implications you draw from your explanation of "as it is written," I agree with your understanding of what "as it is written" means. It is a reference, a citation, used to support the previous claim (that without water baptism or the desire for it, no man is justified). 

    So, having read the entire Treatise on Justification, it very emphatically teaches that the Holy Spirit inspires all of the dispositions necessary for justification.

    Even Catholic Encyclopedia defines votum as follows:
    Quote
    We have rendered votum by "desire" for want of a better word. The council does not mean by votum a simple desire of receiving baptism or even a resolution to do so. It means by votum an act of perfect charity or contrition, including, at least implicitly, the will to do all things necessary for salvation and thus especially to receive baptism.

    I absolutely despise this term "Baptism of Desire".  IMO it's used deliberately to transform it into something vague that can be extended practically to the radishes in your garden.

    So Trent explains repeatedly that the Holy Ghost inspires these dispositions for Baptism in the soul.

    Then after all this we get to the infamous passage.

    So let's say that we have a similar ambiguous passage.  Assume that you don't know what baseball is.

    "We can't play a game of baseball without a bat or a ball."  By itself, without context or without prior knowledge of what baseball is, you can't tell whether this means you just need one or the other or you need both.  But now let's expand the thought as follows:

    "We can't play a game of baseball without a bat or a ball, since you need a bat and a ball to play a game of baseball."  Disambiguated.

    That's exactly what's happening in this passage in Trent.

    Trent uses the very evocative term for the Sacrament, "laver" (lavacrum), which is evocative of water.

    So it's making an analogy and applying the proof text.

    "Justification cannot happen without the laver OR the votum, SINCE Our Lord taught that one cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven unless he be born again of water AND the Holy Spirit."

    Laver is to water what the votum is to the Holy Spirit.  To interpret this passage the BoDer way, you'd have to read it this way --

    "Justification can happen with either the laver or the votum, since Our Lord teaches that both the laver and the votum are required."

    Also, the language is very clear.  It does not say that justification CAN happen with just the votum along.  It says that justification CANNOT happen WITHOUT the votum.

    There are MULTIPLE other problems with the BoDer interpretation of this passage ...

    1) interpreted as "either ... or", it's saying that the Sacrament (this section is about justification for adults) can justify WITHOUT the votum.  That proposition was actually anathematized in the Canons of Trent.
    2) interpreted the BoDer way, it's saying that justification can happen WITHOUT the Sacrament of Baptism, which is heretical (condemned at Trent).  "WITHOUT" is completely the wrong expression.
    3) interpreted the BoDers way, saying that justification cannot happen without these two, this means that there's no such thing as BoB that does not reduce to a Baptism of Desire.  So there are no "Three Baptisms" but, rather "Two" and saying "Three Baptisms" would be heretical.

    Problems go on and on and on and on ...

    St. Alphonsus held that BoD doesn't necessarily remit all the temporal punishment due to sin.  But that contradicts Trent's teaching that initial justification removes all stain of and punishment due to sin (not just the guilt).  Also, a Pope, in a very similar letter to the one St. Alphonsus cited as making BoD de fide declared that someone saved by BoD would enter heaven immediately and "without delay".  So that would (using St. Alphonsus' own logic) render St. Alphonsus' theory of temporal punishment not remitted by BoD heretical.

    It just doesn't stop with the confusion ... and that demonstrates as much as anything that the Church has not defined this matter.  Just the fact that we're having this argument proves that the Church hasn't defined it.

    Offline Mithrandylan

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4565
    • Reputation: +5264/-448
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #44 on: November 11, 2022, 11:26:59 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • While I agree that "instrumental cause" is not ruled out even if the cause occurs through a reception in voto, it also doesn't prove your assertion that in bold there that it CAN happen other than by actual reception of the Sacrament.  That's what is under dispute here.

    This designation of "instrumental cause of justification" does not prove either side of the debate.

    I've made the same argument against those who state that BoD inherently denies the "necessity" of Baptism, as the necessity could be preserved by requiring a reception in voto of the Sacrament.

    So "necessity" and "instrumental cause" by themselves are neither here nor there, and prove neither side.
    .
    Maybe I don't follow you. Baptism truly is the instrumental cause of justification, and we know this because Trent teaches so with the same authority it teaches no man can be justified except through/without baptism or a desire for it.
    .
    The nature of an instrumental cause is that something else can be substituted for it. That's what makes it an instrumental cause as opposed to a principal cause (instrumental and principal causes are two types of efficient causes-- see Aquinas's explanation above).
    .
    While the meaning of "baptism or a desire for it" might be arguable in a vacuum, the meaning of "instrumental cause" is not.  I therefore think it quite apt, knowing baptism is the instrumental cause of justification, to understand "baptism or the desire for it" to mean that justification can be effected in a man who desires water baptism but who has not yet received it. This is consistent with it being an instrumental cause, whereas to maintain that no one can be justified without desiring to be baptized by water and then actually getting baptized by water is inconsistent with it being an instrumental cause.
    .

    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).