One thing I am not clear on is the precise definition of Americanism.  Where does the heresy come in?  Is the heresy the idea of Cardinal Gibbons that American-style democracy should be spread around the world?  If so, then what does this make someone who accepts these American-style democracies once they are already put in place, like Pius XII?  Or is the heresy only the idea that the active life should replace the inner spiritual life? Or is it a synthesis of all these things?

I believe the heresy is the absolute separation of religion from the state. The "Americanists" were claiming that this condition was the best, period. It is similar to the argument of John Courtney Murray on religious liberty. He took something that could be tolerated in a given situation and turned it into the best case and a "right".

Quote from: Raoul76

One thing I am not clear on is the precise definition of Americanism.  Where does the heresy come in?  Is the heresy the idea of Cardinal Gibbons that American-style democracy should be spread around the world?  If so, then what does this make someone who accepts these American-style democracies once they are already put in place, like Pius XII?  Or is the heresy only the idea that the active life should replace the inner spiritual life? Or is it a synthesis of all these things?

I believe the heresy is the absolute separation of religion from the state. The "Americanists" were claiming that this condition was the best, period. It is similar to the argument of John Courtney Murray on religious liberty. He took something that could be tolerated in a given situation and turned it into the best case and a "right".

John Rao does a good job in this talk explaining it and docuмenting the History of it:

http://www.keepthefaith.org/detail.aspx?ID=1153

he touches on it too in a few other talks:

http://www.keepthefaith.org/detail.aspx?ID=119
http://www.keepthefaith.org/detail.aspx?ID=86


wow, now 7 ignores, someones Pm's and fingers are busy little beavers.....oh well, could say to get a life, but likely, too late.. :bob-marley: :roll-laugh1:

Yes, I must say that is rather odd and childish. Like they are trying to drum you off the board. Clearly they have forgotten one of their sacred cows. Freedom of Speech

I have urged ignores for nuts and  :gandalf: that is true, but odd for a group that used to deride the hide function as un-needed and childish!

wonder who our 7th is? oddly, for most part, me and raoul seem to be more on same page then we used to....though occ disagreement.....

I have been on this board for 16 months, give or take, posting actively for a yr, not likely to drum me off....if they do not like me or CI, then they are free to show initiative and start their own forum-Chant Cd did after all, he used to be a regular at FE......

Myrna states:

"At your age, much younger, you probably didn't have this same priviledge of attending Catholic schools that were rich with Truth. Not that it was a fault of yours, so you depend on reading what you can find, I suppose.

They say your body is what you eat, your mind what you read.  Which is why I am searching the encyclicals now to see if I can find anything to justify why we should hate our Country, so far I can't. In the meantime, if you find any encyclicals please post them here, I would appreciate it very much. "

well, I attend Catholic schools with truth, so? also, of note, Americanism did not just pope up in the 50's or afterwards...Americanism in the USA RCC was a the founding, soe the nuns may have been right on many things, but still they were a product of the USA culture....many trads are right on most things, but will then be militarists, neocons, americanists,etc on other things....some even are trads etc contraception, then accept that !!

Merely going to Catholic schools in the 40's and 50's did not insulate one from americanism, nor in some areas modernism...

we see that after copious posts, on Myrna's first paragraph, she still does not get it at all what we are saying, presenting and urging her to look into!

Paragraph 2, there are countless encylcials that tell us to reject naturalism, pantheism, secret societies, protestantism, modernism, indifferentism!! you missed those?? or are you being like a NO defender-since V2 did not specifically say "hey, everyone is saved" in black and white, then nothing is wrong with it. have a friend that is that way-he too will not dig to look at background history prior to V2, the players involved,etc....unless a Pope says "america sucks" then, it is fine?? did they not rail against the above? so if a nation is based on the above, then it is wrong...news flash-it is based on it, not and never was it on Catholic principles! Cant get around that..

Myrna, you are still not getting it, or likely, do not want to get it!! who is saying "hey, lets all hate our country"??????

really, if anyone hates it it is those that will not see it for what it is (drunken mother) and build Catholic foundations and structures!!

your nuns that you note, do you really expect them to teach the Social Reign of Christ the King and the CSO?? have yet to hear anyone that wen through Catholic schools in the 30' onsaying they were formally taught this! nor in Mass, nor in Cathecism...

again, 1000th time, the leaders of the USA RCC have always surpressed that or weeded it out more than enrich bread!!!

your nuns taught you to be a good citizen, fine...they taught you against modernism, great....but they either remained silent or played the game Catholics played then-to blend in, fit in and not make waves....least they be deemed unpatriotic and a papist 5th column, loyal to the foreign ruler the Pope..

BTW-doubtful they told you say in 1958, hey, we no longer have a Pope! You buy SV, but turn a blind out to the civil state! amazing......

as far as posting yet have Myrna, you have not connected dots, researched-so what if we post 5 more psots? what difference is that going to make?? or 10?? 20??

the amount of posting and rebutting you do, you cannot humanly have the time to listen,watch and read what we say.....so why tell us to put up more?

and again, it is rather lacking in intellectual acuмen to label anti-americanists as "haters", this is common the the Mort downey world we live in-labels to shut attack and shut down the discussion.....usually used by those that really are the haters......

I took you off ignore a while back Belloc.  I need all the sunshine and gumdrops I can get.

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I'm starting to feel like I'm under a Saul Alinsky attack.  WE DO NOT HATE OUR COUNTRY.  Whatever makes you think we do?  Just because we acknowledge the truth about it and our beloved Church here?  

Do you actually believe that the Church was perfect before Vatican II?  

Do you actually believe that this was a haven for Catholics to live in?  Do you have any idea of how they were treated in this country?

Don't you realize that the majority of the errors in Dignitatis Humanae in the VII docuмents came from here?  

Are your children perfect?  Because you recognize their imperfections does that mean that you hate them?

I took you off ignore a while back Belloc.  I need all the sunshine and gumdrops I can get.

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I'm starting to feel like I'm under a Saul Alinsky attack.  WE DO NOT HATE OUR COUNTRY.  Whatever makes you think we do?  Just because we acknowledge the truth about it and our beloved Church here?  

Do you actually believe that the Church was perfect before Vatican II?  

Do you actually believe that this was a haven for Catholics to live in?  Do you have any idea of how they were treated in this country?

Don't you realize that the majority of the errors in Dignitatis Humanae in the VII docuмents came from here?  

Are your children perfect?  Because you recognize their imperfections does that mean that you hate them?

I have no idea what you are talking about?

All I said here was I am searching the pope's encyclicals, is that a sin???

I never said you hate your country either, what I said was some here accused me of Americanism just because I don't hate my country. I don't recall you doing that!   So now I am trying to figure out if they are right and I am wrong.  So far I haven't found any Catholic teaching by reading the popes encyclicals to prove I am wrong.  Therefore I will not feel guilty if I hang my flag up on the 4th of July.  

Americanism the way I understand it is, when you love your country over God, or if you love your country and think the people in it are better than other people, that is the sin of nationalism. A grave sin that I am not guilty of either.  

 

I took you off ignore a while back Belloc.  I need all the sunshine and gumdrops I can get.

I do try  :dancing-banana: :dancing:

Many people today believe that the state can do whatever it wants without sinning. They deny that the state has responsibilities before God and they deny that the state has proper limits. They believe that when it passes laws, the state creates right and wrong and that right and wrong do not exist outside of the state's decrees. Is this a part of "Americanism"?

a part of it-elevation of the state, some to a diety....Michael Novak stated tha the Church must learn from AMerica, capitalism and the American way.....

I'm starting to feel like I'm under a Saul Alinsky attack.  WE DO NOT HATE OUR COUNTRY.  Whatever makes you think we do?  Just because we acknowledge the truth about it and our beloved Church here?  

Do you actually believe that the Church was perfect before Vatican II?  

Do you actually believe that this was a haven for Catholics to live in?  Do you have any idea of how they were treated in this country?

Don't you realize that the majority of the errors in Dignitatis Humanae in the VII docuмents came from here?  

Are your children perfect?  Because you recognize their imperfections does that mean that you hate them?

well stated, to change one has to realize a problem exists first!!

likely they will not treat their children like that, but they are failing to see the errors as you note....well stated your post above  :applause: :applause:

you did not distribute communion, Myrna, to those nasty "VII people", there again we see you have blinders on about the USA, but the rest we are resiliant,eh?