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Offline PereJoseph

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Adolf Hitler
« Reply #75 on: April 27, 2012, 11:05:00 AM »
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  • Quote from: Graham
    Quote from: Raoul76
    By making people give primacy to the state over the Church ...


    Speaking of Man of the West's last post, I found it very curious how he said "the Church must be on the side of civilization."


    That is very strange, especially since he was fond of quoting Puritan novels as if they were an authority, and other such things.  And here is a grave problem since the Renaissance, the worship of "civilization" at the expense of the Catholic Faith.  But if "civilization" does not lead to salvation, what is the virtue of it ?  How is it better for men to live in such a state if it imperils their souls and therefore their minds ?  Look at today, how for the first time in recorded history, the majority of the world lives in cities.  Has this excess of "civilzation" benefitted anybody morally, spiritually, mentally, physically, and culturally, as opposed to its historical alternative ?  No.  So what is the virtue in this thing called "civilization," which is actually an incoherent and poorly defined concept as it is ?

    Offline Traditional Guy 20

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    « Reply #76 on: April 27, 2012, 11:05:57 AM »
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  • Quote from: PereJoseph


    No, making cryptic comments in defense of eugenics and nαzι policies sure makes you appear like a nαzι, though.


    I just stated the facts about nαzι social policy I did not defend it. It is a known fact America and Britain had the same policy.

    Quote
    To stop them from being propagated, obviously.  If somebody is posting in a non-Catholic manner, I am concerned about their presence on the forum and its effect on lurkers and younger readers.  It seems pretty easy for young men to get riled up and defensive over some great issue if somebody only makes the case for them.


    There is nothing wrong with debating on views we disagree with.

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    I haven't really thought about it.  All I know is that Germany and the Germans enthusiastically supported racial hygiene and attempted to enslave the Slavs for a thousand years, their efforts on behalf of this project resulting precisely in hundreds of thousands of Slavic men producing even more Slavic babies with German women involuntarily.


    How very Catholic and Christian of you...that is like a Trotskyite morality or the morality of a jacobin or Marxist, "Whatever advances the revolution is moral, whatever doesn't is immoral and must be wiped out." However I blame America and Britain for Stalin's rape and murder of Europe along with France. :smirk:


    Offline PereJoseph

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    Adolf Hitler
    « Reply #77 on: April 27, 2012, 12:18:53 PM »
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  • Quote from: Traditional Guy 20
    I just stated the facts about nαzι social policy I did not defend it.


    Well, it looked like you were defending it based on the language you chose to use.

    Quote
    It is a known fact America and Britain had the same policy.


    Yes, they certainly did, to their eternal discredit and shame.

    Quote
    There is nothing wrong with debating on views we disagree with.


    There is nothing wrong with suppressing false opinions, either.  Error has no rights.

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    How very Catholic and Christian of you...that is like a Trotskyite morality or the morality of a jacobin or Marxist, "Whatever advances the revolution is moral, whatever doesn't is immoral and must be wiped out."


    I never said I didn't think it was a great evil, but God did not allow it to happen in a vacuum.  I wonder how many Germans dare to claim racial purity today... ?  In any case, yes, obviously every Red Army soldier who participated in the rapes is guilty of mortal sin worthy of harsh punishments.  But that doesn't mean, contrariwise, that the Germans didn't in some way bring it upon themselves.  I was not there and am being somewhat professorial about events that, I imagine, were truly horrible and disgusting.  I hope I didn't give the impression that I was defending the rapes.

    Offline Karl

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    Adolf Hitler
    « Reply #78 on: April 27, 2012, 04:33:32 PM »
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  • Quote from: Traditional Guy 20


    Where the hell did I say I supported abortions for racial reasons? Stop misquoting me. Yes I am a Traditional Catholic and I go to a Traditional Latin Mass. I guess telling historical facts about the events leading up to World War II makes one a nαzι?


    Thank you Traditional Guy, people like you make me proud to be Catholic

    Offline Karl

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    Adolf Hitler
    « Reply #79 on: April 27, 2012, 04:35:08 PM »
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  • Quote from: PereJoseph


    I hope I didn't give the impression that I was defending the rapes.


    YOU SAID "POETIC JUSTICE"! You're just another brainwashed German hater...


    Offline Karl

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    Adolf Hitler
    « Reply #80 on: April 27, 2012, 04:52:12 PM »
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  • Quote from: PereJoseph


    And here is a grave problem since the Renaissance, the worship of "civilization" at the expense of the Catholic Faith.


    I believe Catholicism is the worship of European Civilization.

    G.K. Chesterton once wrote:

    "It is often said by the critics of Christian origins that certain ritual feasts, processions, or dances are really of pagan origin. They might as well say that our legs are of pagan origin. Nobody ever disputed that humanity was human before it was Christian; and no Church manufactured  the legs with which men walked or danced, either in a pilgrimage or a ballet. What can really be maintained, so as to carry not a little conviction, is this: that where such a Church has existed it has preserved not only the processions but the dance; not only the cathedral but the carnival. One of the chief claims of Christian civilization is to have preserved such things of pagan origin. In short, in the old religious countries men continue to dnace; while in the new scientific vities they are often content to drudge."

    Catholicism preserved the ancient culture of our European ancestors.

    Offline PereJoseph

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    Adolf Hitler
    « Reply #81 on: April 27, 2012, 05:13:53 PM »
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  • Quote from: Karl
    Quote from: PereJoseph


    I hope I didn't give the impression that I was defending the rapes.


    YOU SAID "POETIC JUSTICE"! You're just another brainwashed German hater...


    I am French, not brainwashed.  Sorry, but most of what I have encountered amongst Germans is very unlikable.  You seem to have a sort of reactionary understanding of my use of the phrase "poetic justice," but if you don't see the irony, that's your problem.  Rich lessons can be taken from it.  As for my opinion of the Germans, there is another thread on this subject that I participated in extensively.  I have been nothing but fair to them.  My words are candid and public; anybody can read them here.

    Offline PereJoseph

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    « Reply #82 on: April 27, 2012, 05:21:35 PM »
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  • Quote from: Karl
    Quote from: PereJoseph


    And here is a grave problem since the Renaissance, the worship of "civilization" at the expense of the Catholic Faith.


    I believe Catholicism is the worship of European Civilization.


    A surprising admission !  Alright, well then you have a very impoverished and sick understanding of the Catholic Faith.  I do not know if I can help you out of this problem, since you seem to have voluntarily gotten yourself into it by a way mysterious to all but yourself.  At the very least, your opinion is offensive to pious ears, if not erroneous, heretical, and perhaps even blasphemous.  Could somebody help me out here ?

    Quote
    G.K. Chesterton once wrote:

    "It is often said by the critics of Christian origins that certain ritual feasts, processions, or dances are really of pagan origin. They might as well say that our legs are of pagan origin. Nobody ever disputed that humanity was human before it was Christian; and no Church manufactured  the legs with which men walked or danced, either in a pilgrimage or a ballet. What can really be maintained, so as to carry not a little conviction, is this: that where such a Church has existed it has preserved not only the processions but the dance; not only the cathedral but the carnival. One of the chief claims of Christian civilization is to have preserved such things of pagan origin. In short, in the old religious countries men continue to dnace; while in the new scientific vities they are often content to drudge."

    Catholicism preserved the ancient culture of our European ancestors.


    Euh, okay, whatever.  When you are ready to talk about what I posted to you, I will be ready to continue our discussion.

    P.S. To the regular posters here, a sincere question : who in the world are these people ?  Does anybody peruse perennialist or white nationalist fora who could tell me where these posters and ideas are coming from ?


    Offline Karl

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    Adolf Hitler
    « Reply #83 on: April 27, 2012, 07:45:05 PM »
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  • Quote from: PereJoseph
    Quote from: Karl
    Quote from: PereJoseph


    A surprising admission !  Alright, well then you have a very impoverished and sick understanding of the Catholic Faith.  I do not know if I can help you out of this problem, since you seem to have voluntarily gotten yourself into it by a way mysterious to all but yourself.  At the very least, your opinion is offensive to pious ears, if not erroneous, heretical, and perhaps even blasphemous.  Could somebody help me out here ?


    Am I really the one with the impoverished understanding of Catholicism?

    Following the decline of the Roman Empire, Europe was vulnerable to external influences. The political, economic, and religious values of European society were threatened by Islam and Judaism.

    The Roman Catholic Church absorbed and preserved ancient European culture.

    Why don't you acknowledge the real history of your Church?

    Offline Karl

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    Adolf Hitler
    « Reply #84 on: April 27, 2012, 08:04:00 PM »
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  • Quote from: PereJoseph

    Charlemagne is not a canonised saint nor did he found the HRE of the German Nation; Otto of Saxony did founded it during the Pornocracy.  There is very little institutional continuity between the reign of Charlemagne, King of the Franks and Emperor of the Romans, and the Empire of the Ottonian, Hohenstaufen, and Habsburg dynasties, and no continuity between Charlemagne's empire and that of the Hohenzollern's, much less the German State run by Adolf Hitler.


    How DARE you talk about St. Charlemagne that way...

    In 1800, Pope Leo III was threatened by the people of Rome and forced to flee the city. He asked Saint Charlemagne for his assistance and the Germanic Franks traveled to Rome and restored the Pope. Pope Leo III later returned to Rome and thanked King Karl der Grosse for his help.

    Shortly after on Christmas Day, King Karl der Grosse entered St. Peter’s Basillica and knelt to pray at the altar. Pope Leo III unexpectedly crowned King Charlemagne, making him Emperor.

    Germany eventually became known as the Holy Roman Empire and the leader of the Germans became known as the Emperor of Rome.

    Offline Andrew

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    « Reply #85 on: April 27, 2012, 10:09:05 PM »
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  • I have to say, I read Mein Kampf and it was in theory quite a good solid political plan, but in the end Hitler didn't stay Catholic, he simply did it more for the political reasons.  I went through a period where I studied the nαzι's and some of it interests me still, but the most interesting of the bunch in my opinion were Goring and Goebbels.  I now believe Hitler was a ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ, I used to deny this fact vigourously, but now after reviewing it, there are too many signs to support he was a ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ, which isn't very Catholic.  For instance he was completely aware that Ernst Rohm was a ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ, Hess has the black bertha file which states evidence he was a crossdresser into the S&M, and Berlin is the smut capital of the world.  During the nαzι's rule Church attendance was at an all time low, Hitler replaced himself with Jesus basically and was so full of himself that throughout his writings he sees himself as someone sent from God to save Germany.  
    Quote
    When Hitler became chancellor (1933), he
    named  Rudolf Hess as  deputy führer and
    later (1939) as second in succession to the
    nαzι  leadership. He was known for his dress-
    up attire as Black Bertha in the gαy  bars of
    pre-war Berlin and Goebbels and Goring
    surnamed him Fraulein  Hess in mockery of
    his utter devotion and fanatical loyalty to
    Hitler. In May 1941 Hess  was captured in
    Scotland, where he had flown apparently in a
    bid to start peace talks with Britain. At the
    Nuremburg trials (1946) he was sentenced to
    life imprisonment in Spandau Prison, Berlin,
    for war crimes that he had  never committed.
    The poor man eventually took his life in jail in
    a German  prison aged 91. His IQ was 120
    (tested at Nuremberg). He was one of the
    scapegoats of the post-war era and the Allies
    failed to give him a fair trial.

    Hess who was allegged to be an ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ
    was given within the Party  many nicknames :
    he was thus called “Hesserl” by Hitler,
    “Fräulein Hess”  by Otto Strasser, “Fräulein
    Anna” by Ernst Hanfstaengl, “Fräulein Gusti”
    by  Helen Hanfstaengl, “Black Paula” by Ernst
    Röhm, “Black Grete” by Bella  Fromm and
    “Black Emma” by Erich Ebermayer.



    Hitler's respect for islam
    Quote

    Only in the Roman Empire and in Spain under Arab domination has culture been a potent factor. Under the Arab, the standard attained was wholly admirable; to Spain flocked the greatest scientists, thinkers, astronomers, and mathematicians of the world, and side by side there flourished a spirit of sweet human tolerance and a sense of purist chivalry. Then with the advent of Christianity, came the barbarians. Had Charles Martel not been victorious at Poitiers—already you see the world had already fallen into the hands of the Jews, so gutless a thing Christianity!—then we should in all probability have been converted to Mohammedanism, that cult which glorifies the heroism and which opens up the seventh Heaven to the bold warrior alone. Then the Germanic races would have conquered the world. Christianity alone prevented them from doing so.
    28 August 1942
     


    The fact that the Japanese have retained their political philosophy, which is one of the essential reasons for their success, is due to their having been saved in time from the views of Christianity. Just as in Islam, there is no terrorism in the Japanese State religion, but, on the contrary, a promise of happiness. This terrorism in religion is , to put it briefly, of a Jєωιѕн dogma, which Christianity has universalized and whose effect is to sow trouble and confusion in men’s minds.
    4 April 1942


    In the end, I think Hitler was a fag, morally impotent, his anti-semitism was mainly formed due to Karl Luger of the Christian Socialist party, and led Germany to utter defeat.  He was delusional about himself, about his war plans, he didn't listen to his Generals who stated Germany would lose brutally if they started a world war, which they did, he was a drug addict, had an affair with his niece, was locked in a cell with Rudolf Hess, which is more evidence the fuhrer was scwhul.  Basically if he would have stuck to his plan outlined in Mein Kampf, he probably would have been a success, but he didn't and paid the price.  He was no real Catholic in the end, maybe in his childhood, but he simply saw the Catholic faith as a barrier to causing complete destruction.  I don't buy the h0Ɩ0cαųst facts, but I don't deny that jews were rounded up and in the end alot of them put to death, probably by firing squads, and now they're uncovering mass graves that were shot to death.  I believe there were gas chambers but probably used to test chemical warfare, it simply doesn't make sense timewise to use gas chambers when you can make people dig their own graves then shoot them.   Plus I've seen convincing evidence from crematory workers who've stated it takes about 4 hours or so to burn one body, in a crematory oven, so if 6 000 000 were burnt in the ovens, they would still be going.  There's no doubt the jews have lied about alot of aspects and used their position in them media to promote the h0Ɩ0cαųst, yet they're responsible mainly for 20 000 000 Russians dead in the gulags, the starvation of the Ukranians during the holomodor, and have used this to guilt western society into accepting them.  I would admit I'm borderline αnтι-ѕємιтє, to me traditional Christianity, the good old Vatican I kind is almost like a natural reaction to dislike the jews, just like with the muslims, they create their own ghetto's, don't assimilate into society, and generally don't contribute to society as they send all their money to support israel.  So Adolf Hitler is no Catholic in the end, the 3rd Reich relied heavily on occult rituals and Himmler was extremely into this.  Just off the top of my head, seeing this thread and just joined up, I'll have to make an introduction post.


    Offline Graham

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    « Reply #86 on: April 28, 2012, 12:18:57 AM »
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  • Quote from: Karl
    The Roman Catholic Church absorbed and preserved ancient European culture.


    It certainly did this with the best of Greek/Egyptian philosophy and Roman custom and law, and in addition baptised many of the wonderful mythologies of Northern and Eastern Europe including the Grail legend. But in case you're forgetting, the scriptures themselves are Hebrew, and evangelizing Catholics abolished Indo-European paganism, by force when necessary. There was continuity, rupture, and development.

    The good news and the providential mission of the Church do not amount to a futile "worship of European civilization" - that's gross idolatry. When was the last time European civilization bestowed sanctifying grace on anybody? It's such a crazy thing to say that you must mean something else and just worded it very badly.  

    Quote from: PJ
    P.S. To the regular posters here, a sincere question : who in the world are these people ?  Does anybody peruse perennialist or white nationalist fora who could tell me where these posters and ideas are coming from ?


    Many less intelligent perennialists glory in a neopaganism of their own fevered and decadent invention, while some more sophisticated perennialists point to continuities 'vertical and horizontal' between the traditions of pre-Christian Europe and those of Roman Catholicism. When speaking of the traditions of pre-Christian Europe, they exclude the proto-modern moral and intellectual deviations exemplified in democratic/naturalistic Athens and late Imperial Rome. This extraordinary statement of St. Augustine may reveal the intention of the latter approach: "The very thing that is now called the Christian religion was not wanting among the ancients from the beginning of the human race, until Christ came in the flesh, after which the true religion, which had already existed, began to be called ‘Christian.’ "

    Karl appears to be somewhere in between. His views on Christianity are stunted and shallow.




    Offline Graham

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    Adolf Hitler
    « Reply #87 on: April 28, 2012, 12:39:04 AM »
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  • Quote from: Graham

    Many less intelligent perennialists glory in a neopaganism of their own fevered and decadent invention



    In fact I would rather not dignify these people with the term perennialists - they're really just Nietzscheans. But this is certainly a proclivity in the 'Evolian' wing of the new or 'alternative right,' and through him they claim some vague relationship with Guenon, A. Coomaraswamy, Schuon, etc.

    Offline PereJoseph

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    « Reply #88 on: April 28, 2012, 12:53:41 AM »
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  • Quote from: Graham
    Quote from: Karl
    The Roman Catholic Church absorbed and preserved ancient European culture.


    It certainly did this with the best of Greek/Egyptian philosophy and Roman custom and law, and in addition baptised many of the wonderful mythologies of Northern and Eastern Europe including the Grail legend. But in case you're forgetting, the scriptures themselves are Hebrew, and evangelizing Catholics abolished Indo-European paganism, by force when necessary. There was continuity, rupture, and development.

    The good news and the providential mission of the Church do not amount to a futile "worship of European civilization" - that's gross idolatry. When was the last time European civilization bestowed sanctifying grace on anybody? It's such a crazy thing to say that you must mean something else and just worded it very badly.



    I suspected the same thing until he didn't seem to respond accordingly.

    Quote
    ...while some more sophisticated perennialists point to continuities 'vertical and horizontal' between the traditions of pre-Christian Europe and those of Roman Catholicism. When speaking of the traditions of pre-Christian Europe, they exclude the proto-modern moral and intellectual deviations exemplified in democratic/naturalistic Athens and late Imperial Rome. This extraordinary statement of St. Augustine may reveal the intention of the latter approach: "The very thing that is now called the Christian religion was not wanting among the ancients from the beginning of the human race, until Christ came in the flesh, after which the true religion, which had already existed, began to be called ‘Christian.’ "


    Fair enough.  I think there is quite a bit to discuss here, and, naturally, while I think Saint Augustine is exaggerating, I agree with what it seems like he is trying to convey.  I doubt he meant his statement literally, however.  In any case, the general problem seems to be the lack of solid formation amongst so many of those Catholics who are apparently attracted to perennialism and/or "National Socialist Catholicism" and/or White Nationalism -- they seem to know just enough to be dangerous.  Some seem to generally be more balanced and informed, though I wonder why, once somebody gets to this point, he continues to entangle himself in perennialist circles and language, rather than just sharing whatever legitimate insights the school of thought might have in a fully Catholic way.

    Quote
    Karl appears to be somewhere in between. His views on Christianity are stunted and shallow.


    Agreed, and thank you for your answers.

    I think our views on these matters are probably closer than originally thought.

    Offline Traditional Guy 20

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    « Reply #89 on: April 28, 2012, 03:35:01 AM »
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  • Quote from: PereJoseph


    Yes, they certainly did, to their eternal discredit and shame.


    No not to their eternal discredit or shame since not many people know of America's eugenics program that continued even AFTER World War II.

    Quote
    I never said I didn't think it was a great evil, but God did not allow it to happen in a vacuum.  I wonder how many Germans dare to claim racial purity today... ?  In any case, yes, obviously every Red Army soldier who participated in the rapes is guilty of mortal sin worthy of harsh punishments.  But that doesn't mean, contrariwise, that the Germans didn't in some way bring it upon themselves.  I was not there and am being somewhat professorial about events that, I imagine, were truly horrible and disgusting.  I hope I didn't give the impression that I was defending the rapes.


    Well you did. Think about this quote from W.H. Auden: "Those to whom evil is given do evil in return." What France and Britain did to Germany after World War I created the hatred that lead to World War II. But you know the most amusing thing for me is that you French started World War II because you were worried about Germanic hordes and in the end you lost your greatness and your empire. It was the same way for Britain. :smirk: