Author Topic: Adolf Hitler (Read 23085 times)

Traditional Guy 20 · « **Reply #90 on:** April 28, 2012, 03:43:58 AM »

Quote from: Graham

When was the last time European civilization bestowed sanctifying grace on anybody?

Well why don't you look at Latin America, Africa, and Asia. I believe those countries were better when Europeans controlled them no?

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Many less intelligent perennialists glory in a neopaganism of their own fevered and decadent invention, while some more sophisticated perennialists point to continuities 'vertical and horizontal' between the traditions of pre-Christian Europe and those of Roman Catholicism. When speaking of the traditions of pre-Christian Europe, they exclude the proto-modern moral and intellectual deviations exemplified in democratic/naturalistic Athens and late Imperial Rome.

Alright well it seems you are British (as am I 1/4 English by the way) so let me tell you what those 'pagan' Europeans gave to you today. Laws in America and Britain (at least before Britain got rid of the death penalty and the right to bear arms) were founded on those laws of the 'pagan' Anglo-Saxons. The very language you speak as do I is a product of quite a bit of the Old English those pagan Anglo-Saxons spoke. One of the other influences is Latin, a language of those pagan Romans. As for those pagan Romans they influenced the French language PereJoseph uses himself I am sure, along with literature, Western thought, etc. So was the Roman Empire an 'unsuccessful society'? Was the Islamic caliphate in Arabia during the Middle Ages an 'unsuccessful society' even though it built a great culture and the people in Europe were largely illiterate?

Traditional Guy 20 · « **Reply #91 on:** April 28, 2012, 03:51:05 AM »

Quote from: PereJoseph

P.S. To the regular posters here, a sincere question : who in the world are these people ? Does anybody peruse perennialist or white nationalist fora who could tell me where these posters and ideas are coming from ?

I'm not defending this Karl guy but how very liberal of you, trying to silence views you do not agree with.

Traditional Guy 20 · « **Reply #92 on:** April 28, 2012, 04:01:04 AM »

Quote from: Traditional Guy 20

Quote from: Andrew
For instance he was completely aware that Ernst Rohm was a ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ...

He only allied with him for political reasons. You DO know that Hitler later shot him right and segregated ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs in cσncєnтrαтισn cαмρs?

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...full of himself that throughout his writings he sees himself as someone sent from God to save Germany.

Yes he thought he was the man to lead Germany back to her greatness.

Quote from: Hitler

Only in the Roman Empire and in Spain under Arab domination has culture been a potent factor. Under the Arab, the standard attained was wholly admirable; to Spain flocked the greatest scientists, thinkers, astronomers, and mathematicians of the world, and side by side there flourished a spirit of sweet human tolerance and a sense of purist chivalry. Then with the advent of Christianity, came the barbarians. Had Charles Martel not been victorious at Poitiers—already you see the world had already fallen into the hands of the Jews, so gutless a thing Christianity!—then we should in all probability have been converted to Mohammedanism, that cult which glorifies the heroism and which opens up the seventh Heaven to the bold warrior alone. Then the Germanic races would have conquered the world. Christianity alone prevented them from doing so.
28 August 1942

Yes Hitler respected Islam for its militancy since he saw Christianity as milquetoast but Hitler thought that the Germans were higher than the Arabs, trust me. He saw Arabs as "half-apes." By the way I think Catholics Joe Sobran and Pat Buchanan have also expressed a little admiration for Islam in their writings as well.

Quote from: Hitler
The fact that the Japanese have retained their political philosophy, which is one of the essential reasons for their success, is due to their having been saved in time from the views of Christianity. Just as in Islam, there is no terrorism in the Japanese State religion, but, on the contrary, a promise of happiness. This terrorism in religion is , to put it briefly, of a Jєωιѕн dogma, which Christianity has universalized and whose effect is to sow trouble and confusion in men’s minds.
4 April 1942

Yes Hitler respected the Japenese for maintaining their race but he preferred the British Empire to the "Yellow Peril."

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So Adolf Hitler is no Catholic in the end, the 3rd Reich relied heavily on occult rituals and Himmler was extremely into this.

Whether the Third Reich was occultist there were still plenty of Germans that were Catholic or Protestant.

Welcome to the forum!

Traditional Guy 20 · « **Reply #93 on:** April 28, 2012, 04:35:22 AM »

Oh and by the way why don't all of you good Catholics here read this article by another good Catholic. :smile:

http://original.antiwar.com/buchanan/2009/08/31/did-hitler-want-war/

"On Sept. 1, 1939, 70 years ago, the German Army crossed the Polish frontier. On Sept. 3, Britain declared war.

Six years later, 50 million Christians and Jews had perished. Britain was broken and bankrupt, Germany a smoldering ruin. Europe had served as the site of the most murderous combat known to man, and civilians had suffered worse horrors than the soldiers.

By May 1945, Red Army hordes occupied all the great capitals of Central Europe: Vienna, Prague, Budapest, Berlin. A hundred million Christians were under the heel of the most barbarous tyranny in history: the Bolshevik regime of the greatest terrorist of them all, Joseph Stalin."

"The Sudeten Germans were returned to German rule, as they wished. Poland had annexed the tiny disputed region of Teschen, where thousands of Poles lived. Hungary’s ancestral lands in the south of Slovakia had been returned to her. The Slovaks had their full independence guaranteed by Germany. As for the Czechs, they came to Berlin for the same deal as the Slovaks, but Hitler insisted they accept a protectorate.

Now one may despise what was done, but how did this partition of Czechoslovakia manifest a Hitlerian drive for world conquest?

Comes the reply: If Britain had not given the war guarantee and gone to war, after Czechoslovakia would have come Poland’s turn, then Russia’s, then France’s, then Britain’s, then the United States."

"Indeed, why would he want war when, by 1939, he was surrounded by allied, friendly, or neutral neighbors, save France? And he had written off Alsace, because reconquering Alsace meant war with France, and that meant war with Britain, whose empire he admired and whom he had always sought as an ally.

As of March 1939, Hitler did not even have a border with Russia. How then could he invade Russia?

Winston Churchill was right when he called it 'The Unnecessary War' – the war that may yet prove the mortal blow to our civilization."

Traditional Guy 20 · « **Reply #94 on:** April 28, 2012, 07:20:22 AM »

Quote from: Andrew

He was delusional about himself, about his war plans, he didn't listen to his Generals who stated Germany would lose brutally if they started a world war, which they did, he was a drug addict, had an affair with his niece, was locked in a cell with Rudolf Hess, which is more evidence the fuhrer was scwhul.

Hitler was not at all delusional about his war plans during World War II. Now he made mistakes granted, but he was not delusional. Hitler let the British Army go at Dunkirk so that there would be in his own words, "no irreconcirable breach between our two peoples." Hitler gave England a chance for peace twice and did not smash them to pieces because he wanted the alliance of Great Britain. He greatly admired the "Tommies." Hilter did the Battle of Britain not to bring down the British Empire, which Hitler wrote would be a "tragedy" in his memoirs but to bring Churchill down. Hitler invaded Russia in 1941 not because of ʝʊdɛօ-Bolshevism, Lebensraum, etc. but to knock out the one country (besides America) Britain placed most of her hopes in. Hitler attacked the West because they declared war on him first over a city that was 95% German and begged to rejoin the Reich. Hitler declared war on America because he figured America would attack Germany eventually, telling of America's actions against Germany by sending ships to escort the British, sinking German submarines, and telling of FDR's lies about an "International nαzι Church" and plans for "nαzι hegemony in this Hemisphere" in Hitler's declaration of war. Hitler saved Mussolini numerous times during the Second World War because of his great admiration and appreciation of Il Duce. Germany bombed British cities only after Britain bombed German civilian centers FIRST.

As for listening to his generals his generals were hardly perfect. His generals were near petrified when Hitler marched into Czechoslovakia, though Hitler was proven right, NOT THE GENERALS.

PereJoseph · « **Reply #95 on:** April 28, 2012, 10:07:42 AM »

Quote from: Traditional Guy 20

Quote from: PereJoseph

Yes, they certainly did, to their eternal discredit and shame.

No not to their eternal discredit or shame since not many people know of America's eugenics program that continued even AFTER World War II.

Have you ever studied logic or taken a formal logic class ? Right now, your statement implies that, because the horrible programme of sterilisation and abortion for racial reasons continued longer than just the war, therefore it was okay and does not redound to the eternal discredit and shame of Anglo-American societies who practiced it. You realise that that doesn't follow -- makes no sense at all -- right ? By the way, yesterday or so you also tried to make the argument that Germany's shameful eugenics programme was somehow not so bad because it was common to the US and England. That also completely doesn't follow and makes no sense.

Are you assuming that my premise is something akin to, "Because it was something those nαzιs did, it was evil," and that the reason I didn't think it was tolerable was because I didn't think that the "good guys" did it, too ? If so, it seems like you are not really prepared to be having a discussion on this issue here, since there is ample -- no, overwhelming -- reason for you to infer that I don't believe that at all. And, since you are just banging your own drum alone in your corner over there and were too busy to notice (or couldn't notice ?) what was happening in the discussions, maybe it's time for you to retire from it. Just a thought for you to consider, lest you embarrass yourself further by making more wild arguments that sound very much like defenses of infanticidal murder and involuntary sterilisation motivated by concerns for "racial hygiene.

:detective: Then again, now I am thinking that maybe you don't even realise why you said what you did, and didn't even notice what arguments, logically, you ended up making.

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Well you did.

Oh, well, I did not mean to.

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Think about this quote from W.H. Auden: "Those to whom evil is given do evil in return."

Okay; it seems to really help my point about God allowing the rapes as poetic divine justice for a people so concerned about "racial hygiene."

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What France and Britain did to Germany after World War I created the hatred that lead to World War II.

Eh, I am sure it contributed significantly to other causes. But so what ?

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But you know the most amusing thing for me is that you French started World War II because you were worried about Germanic hordes and in the end you lost your greatness and your empire.

Well, we certainly didn't lose our greatness, though the Republic lost most of its empire. Algeria and Viet Nam, however, were lost many years after the war concluded, and Algeria could easily have been kept if not for the Mason, De Gaulle, betraying the piednoirs there. I don't see what is amusing about any of this. Amusing or not, though, how did this work out for Germany ? I don't see why this makes you so happy.

As for worrying about Germanic hordes, well, the English probably were not concerned with any vaguely "Germanic" hordes, since that would include them. They were likely more concerned about the old Prussian military machine being activated and used against them by an angry Austrian dictator.

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It was the same way for Britain.

I think you're confusing your wars. The Third Republic was totally unprepared for the task of another European war, chiefly because it was governed by cowardly men, incompetent socialist bureaucrats who had no grasp on reality. It didn't have quite the same role with England that it did in the beginning of the First World War. This is totally irrelevant to what we were talking about, however.

You seem to be making arguments as if you think somebody has to pick one side to be loyal to and support almost everything it did. I am not a nationalist or a liberal or a white supremacist or whatever, so you should move on from thinking that I supported either side during that war, or that such support one way or another effects my judgment and my moral reasoning when analysing either side's actions.

PereJoseph · « **Reply #96 on:** April 28, 2012, 10:12:19 AM »

Quote from: Traditional Guy 20

Quote from: PereJoseph

P.S. To the regular posters here, a sincere question : who in the world are these people ? Does anybody peruse perennialist or white nationalist fora who could tell me where these posters and ideas are coming from ?

I'm not defending this Karl guy but how very liberal of you, trying to silence views you do not agree with.

Oh, yes, it is very liberal of me to want to suppress discussion to protect the minds of earnest young Catholics who haven't studied enough to know the difference. :rolleyes:

What do you think liberalism is, and what is a liberal ?

PereJoseph · « **Reply #97 on:** April 28, 2012, 10:24:52 AM »

Quote from: Traditional Guy 20

Quote from: Graham
When was the last time European civilization bestowed sanctifying grace on anybody?

Well why don't you look at Latin America, Africa, and Asia. I believe those countries were better when Europeans controlled them no?

Do you understand what sanctifying grace is ?

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Alright well it seems you are British (as am I 1/4 English by the way)...

He is from Canada, as evidenced from the Maple Leaf flag under his name.

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...so let me tell you what those 'pagan' Europeans gave to you today.

We are not saying that, just because something is discovered or used by pagans, therefore it is not good. And there is no need for you to put quotation marks around the word "pagans." These people being described as pagans really were pagans; they had a pagan religion and culture. Thus, etc.

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Laws in America and Britain (at least before Britain got rid of the death penalty and the right to bear arms) were founded on those laws of the 'pagan' Anglo-Saxons. The very language you speak as do I is a product of quite a bit of the Old English those pagan Anglo-Saxons spoke.

What is your point ? It seems like you think you are figuring out some great mystery or something. This has nothing to do with the thread.

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One of the other influences is Latin, a language of those pagan Romans. As for those pagan Romans they influenced the French language PereJoseph uses himself I am sure, along with literature, Western thought, etc.

You don't really know what you are talking about at all, which brings up another question. How old are you ?

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So was the Roman Empire an 'unsuccessful society'? Was the Islamic caliphate in Arabia during the Middle Ages an 'unsuccessful society' even though it built a great culture and the people in Europe were largely illiterate?

No. Why do you ask ?

Traditional Guy 20 · « **Reply #98 on:** April 28, 2012, 12:49:50 PM »

Quote from: PereJoseph

Do you understand what sanctifying grace is ?

I do. Europeans brought Christianity to especially Africa and Latin America.

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You don't really know what you are talking about at all, which brings up another question. How old are you ?

Why I thought you said you were French?

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No. Why do you ask ?

I ask because it seems to me the only 'notable' civilizations to you are Catholic ones.

Traditional Guy 20 · « **Reply #99 on:** April 28, 2012, 12:53:46 PM »

Quote from: PereJoseph

Oh, yes, it is very liberal of me to want to suppress discussion to protect the minds of earnest young Catholics who haven't studied enough to know the difference. :rolleyes:

What do you think liberalism is, and what is a liberal ?

Well the number one attitude of a liberal is that they are very emotional and do not like dissenting views.

Traditional Guy 20 · « **Reply #100 on:** April 28, 2012, 01:06:26 PM »

Quote from: PereJoseph

Have you ever studied logic or taken a formal logic class ? Right now, your statement implies that, because the horrible programme of sterilisation and abortion for racial reasons continued longer than just the war, therefore it was okay and does not redound to the eternal discredit and shame of Anglo-American societies who practiced it. You realise that that doesn't follow -- makes no sense at all -- right ? By the way, yesterday or so you also tried to make the argument that Germany's shameful eugenics programme was somehow not so bad because it was common to the US and England. That also completely doesn't follow and makes no sense.

What I am trying to say is that everyone knows about the nαzι eugenics program but not too many people know of America's and Britain's and they are always the "good guys."

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Okay; it seems to really help my point about God allowing the rapes as poetic divine justice for a people so concerned about "racial hygiene."

Actually that quote is about the German Army crossing into Poland basically meaning that since the Allies humiliated Germany to the extreme she got her revenge. And I find it sick that you continue to defend rape. It's wrong period and no one deserves it! That was the GREATEST war crime of World War II, done by the Allies!

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Eh, I am sure it contributed significantly to other causes. But so what ?

Well in the words of Clemenceau, "There are twenty million Germans too many!" The Allied reparations and humiliating defeat on Germany made Germans seethe with anger. It lead straight to the nαzι Party. France and Britain did it to themselves. By the way there's an old joke my grandfather used to say: the one military manual that tells how to lose a war is the French manual. :smile: It was so bad in Weimar Germany German mothers had to prostitue themselves for daily bread. It was not ALL of Germany's fault. Allied Powers shared the blame of the First World War.

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Well, we certainly didn't lose our greatness, though the Republic lost most of its empire. Algeria and Viet Nam, however, were lost many years after the war concluded, and Algeria could easily have been kept if not for the Mason, De Gaulle, betraying the piednoirs there. I don't see what is amusing about any of this. Amusing or not, though, how did this work out for Germany ? I don't see why this makes you so happy.

Uh France is coming apart from Islamic hordes so yes this is not the France of Louis XIV or Napoleon. But you see World War II forced France to lose her empire. She lost her vitality.

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As for worrying about Germanic hordes, well, the English probably were not concerned with any vaguely "Germanic" hordes, since that would include them. They were likely more concerned about the old Prussian military machine being activated and used against them by an angry Austrian dictator.

Hitler was born on Branau-on-the-Inn on the German-Austrian border and was of German ethnicity. And as I said Hitler admired the British Empire and Britain. He did NOT want a war with Britain.

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I think you're confusing your wars. The Third Republic was totally unprepared for the task of another European war, chiefly because it was governed by cowardly men, incompetent socialist bureaucrats who had no grasp on reality. It didn't have quite the same role with England that it did in the beginning of the First World War. This is totally irrelevant to what we were talking about, however.

If they weren't prepared for another war perhaps they should have not declared war on the most powerful country in Europe no?

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You seem to be making arguments as if you think somebody has to pick one side to be loyal to and support almost everything it did. I am not a nationalist or a liberal or a white supremacist or whatever, so you should move on from thinking that I supported either side during that war, or that such support one way or another effects my judgment and my moral reasoning when analysing either side's actions.

I am making the argument that World War II was not worth it. All of the "blood, sweat, and tears" were not worth it. Ah but remember the words of the British propagandists: it 'twas a great victory.

alaric · « **Reply #101 on:** April 28, 2012, 06:01:10 PM »

Quote from: PereJoseph

Quote from: Karl
Quote from: PereJoseph

I hope I didn't give the impression that I was defending the rapes.

YOU SAID "POETIC JUSTICE"! You're just another brainwashed German hater...

I am French, not brainwashed. Sorry, but most of what I have encountered amongst Germans is very unlikable. You seem to have a sort of reactionary understanding of my use of the phrase "poetic justice," but if you don't see the irony, that's your problem. Rich lessons can be taken from it. As for my opinion of the Germans, there is another thread on this subject that I participated in extensively. I have been nothing but fair to them. My words are candid and public; anybody can read them here.

Oh bullsh*t. You my friend are nothing but a German-hater, through'n"through. Spare us with your "objectivity, you revel in the fact that the German countryside was bombarded by Allied and Communist war-shells and her women were systematically raped and tormented by Red Army savage barbarians. The same barbarians that were "brainwashed" by the Judaic Bolshevism that Hitler and the NS's were trying to rid Europe of to begin with.

And another thing, don't forget that you frogs and your Masonic British masters started that war to begin with before the Reich kicked your collective asses back across the English Channel where you belonged.

You like phrases so much, don't forget, the victors write the history texts.

Graham · « **Reply #102 on:** April 28, 2012, 06:52:41 PM »

Quote from: Traditional Guy 20

Quote from: PereJoseph

Do you understand what sanctifying grace is ?

I do. Europeans brought Christianity to especially Africa and Latin America.

Please return to Karl's original statement for a reminder of the context. He said that Catholicism is "the worship of European civilization." What you are talking about is Europe being allowed to act as an instrument of conversion. If, however, we follow Karl's thinking, European civilization itself has the power to dispense sanctifying grace to those who sufficiently worship it. Because, apparently, European civilization is God.

PereJoseph · « **Reply #103 on:** April 28, 2012, 07:30:14 PM »

Quote from: alaric

Quote from: PereJoseph
Quote from: Karl
Quote from: PereJoseph

I hope I didn't give the impression that I was defending the rapes.

YOU SAID "POETIC JUSTICE"! You're just another brainwashed German hater...

I am French, not brainwashed. Sorry, but most of what I have encountered amongst Germans is very unlikable. You seem to have a sort of reactionary understanding of my use of the phrase "poetic justice," but if you don't see the irony, that's your problem. Rich lessons can be taken from it. As for my opinion of the Germans, there is another thread on this subject that I participated in extensively. I have been nothing but fair to them. My words are candid and public; anybody can read them here.

You my friend are nothing but a German-hater, through'n"through.

Ah, shoot first and ask questions later : très américain. Besides considering myself friends with several German posters on this board and being on good terms with many individual Germans, I have publicly defended certain actions of the German nation during the XXth century. Read the last three pages of this thread and come back to this thread :

http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php/Will-all-of-the-nαzιs-please-stand-up?

Perhaps it will cause you to amend what you have said so far.

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Spare us with your "objectivity, you revel in the fact that the German countryside was bombarded by Allied and Communist war-shells and her women were systematically raped and tormented by Red Army savage barbarians.

Far from it. I have never reveled in the Communist mass raping of Germans or of any people, nor any mass raping by any army against any people. I do not have racial hatred for any people; perhaps racial hatred comes easy to your imagination, but it is rather foreign to my thoughts, and I can recognise a Divine punishment of the Germans by the Red Army that fits the former's sin without hating the Germans and loving the subjective mortal sins of the rapists who carried out the deed that God, in His inscrutable mercy, allowed.

God wants us to love His judgments and His punishments, even if we cannot understand them. I know that one thing that I think is absolutely satanic and wholly detestable, the French Revolution, I can also appreciate as a fitting punishment for the neglect of duty on the part of the King, nobles, and French society generally. Likewise, the Acadian expulsion and the martyrdom of my fellow Acadians, which happened to my family directly, I also accept. That does not mean that it was not an evil, or that it was not unjust, or that it will not eventually be avenged by a just authority through the proper channels bequeathed by Our Lord, but I accept it as the will of God all the same. This is a great mystery and a paradox that I think cannot be fully appreciated without the Beatific Vision, the way in which Divine Providence dispenses favours and punishments -- allowing sin all the while and even bringing good from it -- as a means of pruning souls and nourishing the Church.

All I said was that the punishment of the Germans by the Red Army thugs was an act of justice that was poetic, given the German fixation on racial purity. If that causes your blood to boil and you cannot imagine somebody saying such a thing dispassionately, I cannot convince you otherwise. I can only plead with you that you believe me when I say that I am not a German-hater. That being said, I would be lying if I claimed that I was fond of the Germans as a people, the same with both the American and British English.

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The same barbarians that were "brainwashed" by the Judaic Bolshevism that Hitler and the NS's were trying to rid Europe of to begin with.

I don't really see the benefit of using the word "barbarian." It seems to imply the superiourity of domesticated life in the city, of soft bodies and luxury, middle class pretension and so forth. The Germans may have been trying to eliminate Bolshevism and degeneracy, but they replaced it with a perversion of the natural order of their own -- the idolatrous worship of their race, even to the point of murdering children in the womb and sterilising those they believed undesirable. They attempted, likewise, to erect an all-powerful saecular Germanic state that disrespected the sovereign prerogatives of the Pope and the ability for Catholics to worship freely and with undivided consciences (such as they have in the United States). We should thank God that such a monster did not succeed, at least objectively; it clearly was built on many natural goods, but it twisted these natural goods and ordered them to an idolatrous service. The alternative was worse, though of a different kind, so any direct comparison is hard to make. Anyway, we should pray that this other monster, under which the Church and the nations currently suffer, is likewise destroyed, so that the natural and divine laws are bowed before by all.

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And another thing, don't forget that you frogs and your Masonic British masters started that war...

...Which is another way of saying that the Anglo-American establishment exclusively started that war in coöperation with the wishes of international Jєωιѕн finance.

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...to begin with before the Reich kicked your collective asses back across the English Channel where you belonged.

When did the German "Reich" push the British and French across the English channel within the past one hundred years ? Or when did any continental German power ever push us French across La Manche in any conflict ?

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You like phrases so much, don't forget, the victors write the history texts.

Yes, they certainly do. :wink:

Graham · « **Reply #104 on:** April 28, 2012, 08:45:09 PM »

Quote from: PereJoseph

Fair enough. I think there is quite a bit to discuss here, and, naturally, while I think Saint Augustine is exaggerating, I agree with what it seems like he is trying to convey. I doubt he meant his statement literally, however.

No, I don't think he meant it literally either. To go into it further would be rather too off-topic though.

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Some seem to generally be more balanced and informed, though I wonder why, once somebody gets to this point, he continues to entangle himself in perennialist circles and language, rather than just sharing whatever legitimate insights the school of thought might have in a fully Catholic way.

I think the short answer is cognitive dissonance. Some suffer from competing loyalties due to a misguided sense, inculcated by the foremost perennialists themselves, that Catholicism lacks a truly metaphysical character. Minor contributing issues are intellectual pride and an adolescent fascination with secret knowledge. At some point such people must ask themselves why they prefer to heed Sufi Muslims over Christian Saints.

What the perennialists can offer us are thorough refutations of the errors of modernity in a general sense, a window to the cosmological sciences of past ages, especially of symbolism, and a signpost to the ultimate Christian doctrines of the via negativa and the indwelling presence.